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  • julianwilson
    Free Member

    iirc the spesh tricross can come with a triple.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Seriously, the last thing you would need is a bursary, that’s the point. Ironically, getting rid of exclusivity is central to the project. Hence the lovely irony.

    Does that mean it won’t be in a hollowed-out volcano in international waters either? I iz dizappoint :(

    But more seriously, taking your educational project abroad (as you mentioned last page) is hardly going to make it equally accessible to all uk kids unless it is done on the internet. And then you still have vicarious responsibility (via the parents) for home-schooling/ofsted regs, no?

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Fair play. Christ only knows how us state educated plebs had ended up lobbing terms like exclusivity, and superiority about eh? Must be the politics of envy, because we never got to dress up and stare moodily into the middle distance

    And of course Eton is a typical private school, isn’t it?

    The bullingdon photo binner posted is not the eton uniform, it’s the club uniform. (they were all at Oxford by this time of course. And although there was no entrance exam to the bullingdon club, i will eat my hat if there are any state educated folk in that picture. Or indeed any photo of the club, excepting the odd waiter or chauffeur that slipped into the frame.)

    Oh, and if you put aside who is in the photo, you can just enjoy the quality of the hairdo’s :D

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Correct. This is becoming a habit.

    When have you ever admitted otherwise?

    Comparing what I am accused off with what I do in real life, makes me smile even more. I enjoy the irony and happy for it to continue. It makes me smile.

    No one “accuses” you of anything, unless you are particularly sensitive to what you experience as value judgements on what you do. If you drop hints as to your occupation attached to funny, controversial or interesting posts on a forum for long enough, people will tend to join the dots. Unless you have fabricated some of these, I think most regular readers here have a pretty good idea of what you do for a living and what your professional interests are, in the same way as they do for other regulars on here like ernie (where is he btw), JY and DD.

    So anyway, when can I put my sprogs on the waiting list and what bursary will you be awarding an outstanding 9-year old from a 45k income household?

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    And the second part of my own goals re education is related to exactly that. Just not in this country because of all of the BS that prevent progress here.

    Go on, give us a hint.
    I am thinking you are planning the “TeamHurtMore International Academy for special kids who can’t read good.” Inside a hollowed-out volcano in international waters (no visa or minimum wage issues, and you can sail your kids there at the start of term, see?) where you can teach the IB and have less or indeed no cqc/ofsted paperwork/inspections. (actually that all sounds pretty cool, will you do bursaries?)

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    teamhurtmore – Member

    Except it doesn’t – but you knew that. You have already articulated very clearly how state funds are not allocated equally at all.

    Wow three times in one thread, i am flattered :oops:

    My point as you surely realise was about how allocating a very limited bursary to a limited range of kids of limited academic (and indeed sporting!) ability does not significantly serve to redress the inaccessibility of these schools to all children.

    To compare this inequality to that perpetuated by the relatively limited way state schools can choose to be selective that i spoke of a few pages earlier, and the difference in cost of educating each child in an academy/comp/grammar/faith school is pretty weak.

    Again, I will go back to the percentage of children excluded even accounting for limited bursaries to limited children versus the real-world financial cost of sending the child there, compared and contrasted for all the types of schools we have already discussed.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    The essence of economics – everyday, everyone faces the same problem…balancing infinite demand and finite resource to satisfy them. How do you do it?

    The state school system manages by negociating a budget with the chancellor and spending it more-or-less equally (in know this is a gross generalisation but you get the point) on every child regardless of academic merit or financial status. Compare that to allocating bursaries making equal access to brighter/poorer kids.

    But you knew that.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    sharkbait – Member

    Not in this case

    Of course it will: there will always be some sacrifice to make.

    Sharkbait, so let’s imagine for simplicity that it is all quantifiable (i bet it’s not, mind!) and that your notional pass mark is 80%, and you get a number of children who want bursaries of one size or another. Do you give the 100% bursary to the best and also poorest child at the expense of 5 less poor children who didn’t need as large a bursary but also didn’t do so well in the test? Or do you ringfence ‘bands’ of bursaries and give the ten best kids who applied for 10% a place, 5 best kids who wanted 50% a place and the one best kid who applied for 100% regardless of how many more kids applied for 10%, 50% and 100% bursaries? Or substitute ‘best’ with “most worthy given consideration of academic ability as well as potential and ‘deservingness'” and try and work it out then.

    It must be a maddening and indeed sad process awarding a limited quantity of bursaries where there is more need for the money than there is money, and it must be impossible to keep the brightness of individual pupils and their parents’ ability to pay some of the fees entirely out of this process.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    clubber – Member

    Can I just state that my school had no Lacrosse.

    Can I just state that my (state) school had no rugby either. 8)

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    teamhurtmore – Member

    Julian it’s an average across schools and (I think) it’s a year.

    £200 a year increase?

    Jesus wept, that is over £60 sheets a term! To put this into persective, this is half of what you would pay locally for school meals every day.

    Given the overall cost of private education and (until thm provides us with source and figures/breakdown) the low proprtion of families who would genuinely struggle to afford £200 on top of whatever bursary they have, that is a fantastically weak argument against removal of charity status. As it stands and pending better arguments from both sides I am not opposed to fee-paying schools as charities at all, its just that from THM I expected something a bit more compelling than £200 a year and the rather fanciful notion of such a small proportion of the overall cost causing bursaries to fall apart families in dickensian poverty putting their children into state schools.

    With regards to your second point, I am unsure that charity status is the only thing stopping these schools becoming monsters of private enterprise with escalating fees. Otherwise a few would try (and ultimately fail through competition of those that had the £200 a year ‘edge’ on them) or they would all ditch it and create a free market, non? There must be something else, surely?

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    There you go twisting his post again.

    Don’t be too hard on him DD, I am sure this was a totally legit move in the debating societies that we didn’t have in my common-or-garden 6th form.

    teamhurtmore – Member

    Sounds like several different forms of exclusion going on there Juilian! Neatly falsifying the idea that there is only one form of exclusivity.

    I quite agree THM. How refreshing. I am sure that you will have detected from the tone of that post that I am not altogether happy with the wider reaches of exclusion irrespective of whether it attracts formal ‘fees’ or not.

    Now, as you would seem to be a master of this topic,(and seem unusually to be keen to return the thread to it) how would you like to rank these varying forms of exclusivity i pointed out (as well as grammar, fee-paying and fee-paying-with-academic standards) in terms of:
    1) %age of students it excludes
    2) real-world financial and logistical cost of sending your child there?

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    THM re: removing charitable status making fees rise -is that £200 per term, week, year?

    -edit -and assuming whether week/term/year this figure is for day-boy fees rather than full board (which i can only assume would also rise proportionally)

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    jy, alas a state “middle class school with no riff-raff” is still possible to an extent without academic selection given the right circumstances and availability of middle class fami1lies.

    Our 2 catholic schools are certainly less riff-raffy in terms of the demographics of the families of their students. Plymouth is certainly not Liverpool in terms numbers/percentage of RC families and churches. I wonder if secular “riff-raff” families old me can be bothered with the rigmarole of catholicising a child just because these two schools happen to be slighty above average grades-wise and have significantly less trouble with illicit drugs and weapons.

    Being in a very expensive and middle class area and being very fussy about catchment areas also works to an extent as long as you are oversubscribed by your very middle class feeder schools, but thankfully recent planning regulations about housing estates (full ownership, part ownership and social housing proprtions) have mitigated a little against this.

    A friend also went to a hugely middle class state school in Buckinghamshire whose ‘selection’ at the time (late 80’s early 90’s) was based on some fantastic stipulations about uniforms which effectively made ‘fees’ for the schoolsince it was literally thousands more (over 5 years) than other schools to kit your child out properly. (think eton/repton permutations of blazers, hats, bags, multiple sports kits etc, and which few terribly expensive suppliers you had to purchase them from. And hand-me-downs allowed only between siblings!)

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Estimated cost of charitable status – £100m
    Estimated cost of educating private school pupils in the state system – £2.5billion

    Did you discount for the four out of twelve foreign students in your son’s peer group? ;)

    btw I would be interested to hear what helps abuot being a charity rather than a business: from the posts above it would seem its about how much easier it is to manage your finances rather than any tax/profit reasons. Mrs was the (unpaid!) treasurer of a non-profit-but-with-employees charity-statused preschool for a few years: that was certainly the case for them: they were able to offer lowest fees locally for non-funded sessions but were by no means the best equipped or swankiest-looking!

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Thm, I fear that by making an argument specifically against sending one’s children to boarding school, and it being understood by you as an argument for multi tiered education I really must have missed out on something in my state education that you gained from yours. :?
    Please have the ‘quality of education’ argument with someone who is actually arguing it. I would however welcome your experiences of parenting children away from the family home and how you came to the decision. Were there really no suitable/affordable local schools or were there other considerations? FWIW I too worked in aboarding school once upon a time but it was a (French) state school with impoverished locals and rich boarders alike. (much like your post just above) As such I see the arguments about boarding and fee paying as separate but with some overlap in places.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    DD, you could pop him in the van and bond with him over the joys of hardwood flooring. :D

    Seriously, back when it was allowed, my mum used to bring me (age 7-11) to work in the blind folks’ home and that was a great way of introducing me to a broader range of society and understanding what happens when your parents go to work. (dad was a teacher so I already had a good idea about that bit) BTW other things I learnt were to never assume that just because someone is 80 and can’t see that they don’t know exactly what you are up to. Or can’t beat you at most board games!

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    I can’t get my head round choosing (as opposed to our circumstances forcing you to) to send your child away to board. THM talks of financial sacrifices to send kids to fee-paying and boarding schools, and parents like him arriving in clapped-out cars.

    My wife and I work less than we could and so earn less (60 hours between us) so that we can spend more time with our children; this is our “financial sacrifice” and it means we are the sort of parents who are at the school gate morning and afternoon five days a week, know our kids’ teachers well, eat dinner round the table together and spend quality time with them at play and at homework time: to work ourselves into the ground so we cold afford to send them away (and give us more time to work ourselves into the ground to afford school fees) just seems alien to me.

    I appreciate the different and in some cases unique life experiences and social skills that boarding brings, but I would rather that my wife and I teach my children to iron, sew, tidy and debate, and trust that the absence of millionaire parents in our school (a brother and sister who are mates with my kids do have parents in prison though and not for anything middle class like financial irregularities!) does not blinker them too much to the full range of our society. Hey, even if they only get to somewhere crap for university (both are in brightest 10% so far) they are bound to meet plenty of foreign students and some millionaire’s offspring who ‘flunked’. I certainly did!

    [edit] fwiw to qualify the above with my own inherited educational values/faimly scripts about this, five of my ‘whole’ cousins and four second/third cousins the same age as me all went to boarding school. As parents in their 30’s and 40’s now, none are looking at sending their children to board. My dad also boarded from age 12 (and as his dad ran a boarding/prep school technically he already lived in his prepschool and somewhere in it his parents did too so i won’t count that as boarding from age 6…) …and Dad would never have dreamed of sending us to board. In fact none of my three siblings and me even did the 11+ and we went to local comp. Three out of four of us are graduates, my sister is a headteacher but I am winning on academic points and multiple university alumnus mailshots. ;)

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    You’re right to an extent though when you apply it the other way round, it was less common for someone with RP and talked of going sailing at the weekend to have come from a state schooled background.

    …TBF when you posted:

    BUT, there was nothing which ever gave away what sort of secondary eduction they had. Ever.

    …you sounded as though you thought there was absolutely no way of even having a wild stab in the dark at someone’s eductional background from working with/supervising them. A few regional accents that went to public school maketh not a revolution in their class structure. FWIW I can talk excellent radio 4 voice/RP for job interviews and mental health review tribunals, but occasionally a long ‘a’ will slip out and betray that I went to a state comprhensive school. In the south west.

    Also my experience (it is junior doctors and occupational therapists round my way) is that what the term ‘banter’ means to you is as much an indicator of your schooling as what your banter actually sounds like or the words it consists of. I thought it was something Biggles did until I was at university and made great friends with a couple of lads chaps from Stowe who seemed almost to speak another language when they spoke to each other, and just sounded like Jack Whitehall when in conversation with their less stoic (iirc also the name of the school magazine) friends.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    BUT, there was nothing which ever gave away what sort of secondary eduction they had. Ever.

    Two massive hints for you.

    Accent

    Banter

    HTH :D

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Ace. :D

    A friend of my wife’s is starting up a company/social eneterprise making hand-cranked mountain bikes. Amazing what he (Chris) rides on his: not excluding some red-rated downhill courses. 8O Don’t want to hijack a thread about the great Ashton, but I am sure given the technology, he will go on embarass us all over again with his skillz and drive.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    scaredypants – Member

    I think antediluvian would date his attitude pretty well

    Slight tangent, but do they let homosexualists into the Buffalos? :D

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Bike shop have just rung: replaced bearings with new stainless ones under warranty, and the bike has only been there about 4 hours! fwiw he said they recently they have had a few fsa bearings give up very early on (they are a biiiiiig shop though that shifts a lot of road bikes, so ‘a few’ might be out of quite a lot of good ones.

    Top service, I will name and not-shame-at-all Certini in Saltash for this rather excellent bikeshoppery. :D

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Kennyp, do you think Brazil be imposing any of its ‘differences’ in human rights on the compatitors or people visiting Brazil to watch? This seems to be the gist of the OP after all.

    also, Stephen Fry visited and raved about Brazil in his recent series ‘out there’. I’d ask if you caught any of it, but I am not so sure it will have been your cup of tea. ;)

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    thm, absolutely! You do not have the right to host the olympics, it is a privilege and should be respected as such. If your laws are at odds with otherwise established human rights (and indeed science) then you should expect to be challenged if you impose this on the spectators and athletes you invited from all over the world to watch and compete earn you a shed-load of money publicity and exposure.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    I would think if you mention it strongly to them when you take first service they will strip it down and grease it for you (saving you the job and protecting your warrantee) it will also register with them that it may be a problem & if you need to go back with it in the future they will know you have had problems with it from the start.

    Dropped it in this morning. Shop lads (as opposed to mechanics/manager) looked rather suprised at the noise it made (I do know of quite a few other mates’ bikes with bb30 which are just fine after 2 years and plenty of mud) and they have put this on the sheet to be looked at.

    Although it may come back after a few rides anyway, I find a few creaks and groans from the bike can give it a bit of personality and take it from being a clinical collection of modern materials. I normally can’t hear much over my wheezing and coughing once I get going.

    My yeti asr is a bit noisy in a largely friendly and comforting way. Cleat creaks in pedal, old saddle with creaky rails etc, On the other hand having replaced a seriously old and rattly front mech, my very old work/pub/shops bike (which features such technical innovations as the renowned for creak bel-air, square taper cranks, cup and cone hubs and 3×8 alivio gears) is absolutely silent!

    On the other hand again (in know, I am to 3 hands now) this bb30 is loud with the chain off spinning the cranks with your pinky, never mind under load or on anything less tarmaccy and more wodsy/rooty. It is so loud riding that if it was that noise pedalling a full suspension mountain bike, you would be looking for a broken linkage or destroyed shock innards crunching itself to bits, not a bearing needing regreasing.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    5thElefant – Member

    If you did a list of countries with anti-homosexuality laws ordered by severity, worst at the top where would Russia come? A bloody long way down I’d imagaine.

    So why not aim all the angst at the top of the leader board?

    Assuming you think homophobia is a problem, and that you 5thelephant are not just doing a labrat/zulu/ninfan for cantankerous opposition’s sake, then you should consider how many coutries below Russia on your list have pretensions of being a true first world democracy, hosting the most important and recognised international event (well, apart from the summer games ;) ) and imposing your morals and rather hard-to-enforce-consistently laws on the countries competitors you welcome. Your favourite historians’ accounts may vary of course, but there is an acknowledgment in some quarters that the hosts of the 1936 olympics consicously (if rather cycnically in hindsight) toned it down a bit just before and during the games, and everyone muddled through trying not to rock the boat. I just don’t think we should make it as easy on the current hosts.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    What research there is on how/why people are gay would suggest that there are likely to be as many gay people per 1000 in Russia as there are in Brazil, UK or Uganda. Whether they know they are gay/bi or understand they might be etc is part of and indeed due to this ‘cultural relativism’ if you want to call it that.

    Personally I am not happy with the idea that your society’s values might mean that you try and live a heterosexual life with a load of unwanted sexual impulses and ideas about “what if…” pushed to the back of your head because it is too risky to explore them properly. Which if you ban ‘propaganda’ in the Russian way might not mean all that much for already ‘out’ and settled non-scene gay folk, but will leave loads of young men and women somewhat unhappily exploring fooling around with the wrong gender for them or just having no sex life at all. Never mind that these laws in Russia may just be the thin end of the wedge, and do not exactly discourage homophobia via discrimination at work or worse.

    oh fwiw perhaps it is ‘cultural relativism’ that means i don’t really understand Putin with his top off looking all shiny and manly, but if i had a gaydar I reckon Putin would flash up as a potential “doesn’t realise he is bi” :lol:

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Thought I would resurrect this year-old thread rather than start a new one. BB30 virgin here. I have a 400-mile-old cannondale caadx with a bb30 that sounds like a tiny man with a tiny hammer is trying to break out of the bb area when the cranks turn, even with the chain off and spinning either crank arm (not the pedal) with a finger. Occasionally the noise stops and then starts a while later (like for the first half a mile of yesterday’s ride, where afterwards it became so loud that pedestrians were turning round to see what the noise was.) There is no play in the cranks and it does seem to still spin fine but I am conditioned to believe that noise is the precursor to proper failure. I don’t fancy seized bearings chewing up the bb shell 20 miles away from home.

    I stress that this is a 400-mile old bike bought brand new from a reputable cannondale dealer, that has been gently kept clean (“showery” non jet hosepipe just to get it wet, and brush to actually clean), has done maybe 20 of those 400 miles off road, 150 on wet-sh roads and 50 in the actual rain, (see strava is not just a training tool) and has for the last 200 of those miles sported a set of sks chromoplastics so is delightfully easy to keep clean.

    Bike is due it’s “service” at the shop now (so long since I bought a brand new bike but I am guessing that normally they would be looking at adjusting for cable stretch/housing compression, brake pad wear/clearances, play or binding in cassette/hubs/headset/bb and checking bolts still correctly torqued) -question is what should I expect the shop to do about the bb? Of course it is still under warranty and they are a big reputable shop with apparently excellent mechanics. If it was not under warranty I would be looking at bearings and re-packing with grease (my guess is they are dry if they are making that noise under no load whatsoever) but if that is just prolonging the life of already-on-their-way-out bearings is it reasonable to expect them to be replaced under warranty?

    thanks in advance for advice.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    thm, presence/visibility of lots of tabacs is partly cos they all seem to smoke (the percentage of smoking teenagers is way higher than over here, even before UK’s public places smoking ban raising the age to 18, and only beaten by the spanish iirc) but also cos you can’t just pop out and buy fags in the petrol station, corner shop or the supermarket. (although you can have a licence to be a ‘tabac’ and sell other things too). Again in my little town there were 7 bars (and 2 ski shops amongst other things) but only 2 places to buy fags.

    edit:

    roger er gallet

    Don’t forget a lemon shirt with a salmon cravate inside the collar, papi. ;)

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Despite their quality of life being so much better, the French suicide rate is about double that in the UK…

    I am assuming rather than just looking in wikipedia, you have also factored in:
    -proportion of rural/isolated communities.
    -the scope and strength of both counties mental health legslation.
    -understanding/education about mental heath issues ie likelhood to seek help.
    -cultural values/norms which inform that sort of maladaptive behaviour. Ie do you drink yourself to death, become a hermit or get it over with quickly?
    -the way in which inquests take place and deaths are recorded: ie how many go down as ‘misadventure’ or ‘open verdict’.

    Scandinavian countries are also known for their high rates of suicide. I suppose that casts a shadow over their quality of life too?
    Meanwhile if you had a more reliable/comparable way of recording deaths in the third/developing world you would still find their suicide rate to be markedly lower.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Edukator, is it still the case that you can’t buy paracetemol just anywhere nowadays? When I lived there, the only places you could get them (and indeed anything better than a cough sweet!) in our 3,500-populated 2-supermarketed mountain town were the 2 pharmacies.

    also:

    I voted for Sarkozy

    I bet a few on here had you down as a proper bleeding heart lefty. :lol: (If I could be bothered to sort out a proxy/postal vote I would have gone for Hollande last time)

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Have they never heard of oral medicine!?!

    Of course. But once you get your head round it, waiting the extra 15 minutes for your painkillers to start working just seems a bit slow.

    also iirc france had an unusually low rate of intentional paracetemol overdose (ie for suicidal/parasuicidal purposes) because you either had to dissolve loads of sachets into litres and litres of water, or pop a dozen suppositories in. 8O

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Pinhead are massively better made than the 5-sided allen key ones but spendy. They also make lockable topcap and seat collar ones that you can buy in a big pack which all work off the same key. Just don’t lose the key!! (and learn how to fix a puncture without removing the wheel. not that I have ever had to do that. on a bike with full sks mudguards. :oops: )

    That said I have the 5 sided ones on one bike and they are fine and a third the price of pinheads. Ultimately any bike theif well enough tooled up to get around the 5-sided-key ones will probably also be organised and equipped-enough to steal your whole bike and remove pinhead skewers with a grinder later on.

    The danger of storing a lock on the stands at the station is that it gets buried under loads of other bikes, and that if it is a quiet station then bike thief gets to practice on your lock whilst there is no bike in it in preparation for stealing the bike. Or they break the lock practicing on it and then you have nothing to lock you bike up with at the station. I leave my lock on the rack at work but my work would be understanding enough to let me put the bike inside in case of lock failure.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    I love an 8-speed thread! :D

    2nd hand 8sp alivios (m410) will be worth a look: they don’t shift as ‘crisply’ as xt of course but they last forever and fit ok with hydraulic levers- they have on occasions featured on bikes a few years ago with cheapest shimano, juicy 3 and tektro hydraulic brakes. Here is a hideous hybrid with m410’s and juicy levers playing nicely together. I’ve got a rh one on my ancient dh/trouble bike with old m800 saint levers and the angles on it are also fine. (although you might want to trim a couple of mm off the shift levers if you like them close your lockon grip collars). The mc18 (even older ones) have the window under the shifter too and can be had for next to nothing on ebay. You also might find you make a profit by selling your 8sp xt ones too as iirc being very good and reliable (apart from the lever compatibility bit!) they are quite sought after by retro-ists.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    FI = forced induction.

    No, apart from remaps, air intakes/mafs, filters/exhausts, cylinder heads/rebores, balancing, camshafts, reporting/polishing ports (and the ‘upgrades’ to injectors and fuel pumps, though that is really to make the most of the ‘real’ tuning work) it is as Hora the pistonhead says, it is totally impossible. :D

    [edit] If all the above was, possible it would be very spendy indeed though. As above, Honda engines – high revs, so drop a gear or two and rev away!

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    The fact that Saga couldn’t pronounce Rohde was brought up multiple times in the first series,

    ..I notice that Martin still pronounces Saga’s name diferently. Is this something about Danes speaking Swedish (They must be able to pronounce an open ‘A’, shirley?) or is this his response to her mispronounciation of his name?

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Given the truly enormous cost of the machinery to manufacture handlebars, it is unlikely that hope will start making them in their own factory with their own staff etc. How much of an input they have into who they commission to make bars for them is another thing though. fwiw they don’t make all the components in their lights from scratch themselves either but they are pretty good and pretty reliable. This would be in part because their design of the battery boxes and lamp bodies keep them cool keeps the elements out, but also they will have been careful not to just go for the cheapest cells/leds/pcbs etc but the better performing ones.

    If you read the Thomson blurb they would like us to think that their standards and r&d are the same for their (outsourced) handlebars as the things they make (ie mill from billet, much like pretty much everything hope do) themselves. iirc thomson invested in some advertising/info-mercial stuff around their handlebars as it was a bit of a departure for them.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Oh also, at what point could/can Andrew Mitchell take legal action against this officer man for loss of earnings/career? Clearly his life and possibly bank balance now and in the future would be very different today had all this never happened or happened differently.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    Seems to me the issue of whether his pension would be forfeited/cut for this sort of misconduct is the more important issue here, not the way in which he ceases to be a serving police officer with potentially dubious morals and decision-making capabilities…

    One way or another, taxpayers pay for employment tribunals/disciplinaries etc in the public sector. Although I do have issue about how long and how costly these procedures are in public service: ie it is very very long, complex and expensive process to sack someone through really obvious misconduct let alone poor performance/being rubbish. Sometimes the most righteous course of action is (pragmatically speaking) not the best one due to the cost, and also whatever public service the people involved in it won’t be able to do while they are busy doing the ‘right’ thing.

    I remember someone I knew being sacked from a reasonably paid (about 35k iirc) health service post: the easily measurable and impossible to argue against bits were what he got dismissed for. To have sacked him for everything else it was widely alleged he had done wrong would have been far more ‘right’ for those involved (although TBF this was staff not patients iirc, perhaps it would have been different again had their been clear direct harm to individual patients rather than the service) butthis would have cost the trust (and so you the taxpayer) far more for the same end result. Obviously this would have been easier if he had resigned, but it was still better for taxpayer to have thrown a couple of books at him not the whole bookshelf.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    I know a hypno-Dave. It’s his job and everything. (although not sure his clients/patients call him that…)

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