ghostlymachine

You *can’t* dismiss it as it’s very very well documented.

Which is why most of the major players (or at least those who have a reasonable sense of self preservation) are striving for level 4 or 5 and missing out level 3 altogether.

Level 3 seems to be the worst of all worlds. At least with level 2 you get regular warnings and wake up calls and need to interact with the controls on a regular basis. Level 3 you get nothing until there is an issue. (or until after the issue has been and gone and is now a huge problem.)

Level 4 and 5 you get nothing at all. As the car is driving for you. Once it decides it’s not driving for you, it’ll pull up and park if you don’t respond to multiple requests to take over over a relatively long period, i.e. when you get to the end of your planned autonomous journey. (At least level 4 anyway, level 5 doesn’t have anything to take over……)

Good to see someone else pointing out that there are different levels (which is a point I think several people are missing). Ford are ignoring level 3 and aiming to release level 4 cars in 2021, or so they say, and I’d have to imagine that tallies with what you’re saying.

epicsteve

The main question for this is:

a) Did a person die “despite” the driverless car

or

b) Did a person die “because” of the driverless car

Based on what I’ve seen I think it’s option b in this case.

Again, just to flog a dead horse, surely that depends on the level of autonomy the car is purported to have and the legal status granted to cars of that level in that state. From what I can gather, if the driver had been in any other state in the US or anywhere in Europe he would have been at fault legally speaking.

Feeling fine, I had a nice afternoon playing guitar in good company in a sunny park with a view over snowy mountians.

I’d like Jimjam and Maxtorque to admit any human could reasonably be expected to do better than the Uber car by signing my statement that I’l kepp posting til I get banned, they sign it or **** off off the thread as their petrol-head support for a murduring car isn’t welcome on this forum where there are real people who ride bikes and might wish to use the road without getting mown down by an Uber car that doesn’t react to their presence.

Go on Jimjam and Maxtorque sign. You know it’s the truth.

” the UBer car completely **** up. In those condtions a very average human driver would have seen and had time to react to the crossing cyclist, and been braking hard at impact even if they hadn’t managed to stop completely”.

Read my post right above yours, have a think about it, then post back.

This might help too – https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/autonomous-car-levels-different-driverless-technology-levels-explained/

OK, Jimjam. Make the following statement clearly:

I would but here’s the thing, it’s not clear (or at least I can’t find out) what level of autonomy the car is supposed to have, and what the legality of that tech is in Arizon where the crash happened. As far as I can tell the car is only level 2 AV, and thus the driver should have been ready at any point to intervene, such as with Tesla’s current autopilot system.

If the car is level 2, then the driver should have been paying attention and is just as guilty as someone who rear ends another driver because they had cruise control on a dumb car and didn’t react. If you can clarify what level of autonomy the car has, and by extension how alert the driver should have been then I can better agree with (or disagree with) your statement. Is that clear enough or did I muddle my explanation?

Sign that statement and I’l back off, till them you’re just an aplogist for a dangerous driverless car.

Is this the Autonomous vehicle thread equivolent of “I’m going to call you a Nazi? Where’s my laugh emoji.

Edukator

FFS Maxtorque and Jimjam, if you don’t think you’d have done better than the Uber car hand in your driving licences now.

I didn’t make any statement as to my ability one way or the other but (I think Maxtorque and I are on the same page here) I believe it’s pointless to watch a video then re-watch and speculate as to how you might have reacted. I’m pretty skeptical that anyone would have reacted (as much as you can react to a video) the very first time they see it, unless you’re watching with the specific intention of anticipating the crash which is not how we naturally watch videos. Hence my comment about you being the best video driver on the internet today.

Honestly, please stop making straw men or ascribing intentions, motives or opinions to people that they don’t have. That’s twice you’ve done it to me in a couple of pages, it’s as if you think other people are incapable of following your posts and my posts and they’ll just blindly follow your misrepresentation of my opinion.

Edukator

Maxtorque and Jimjam, read back.

Nope. You managed to do it again while I was posting.

I’m somewhat perplexed as to why you’re seemingly fixated on this particular topic though, there’s been far more “what cheap laptop” threads than there ever has been Brexit threads, for instance.

The reason for my fixation (I’ll not argue your choice of words) is that there is rolling thread on the front page virtually every day and has been for years now. By contrast there’s no two year old rolling “What Laptop” and each requirement would obviously be unique, but at this moment in time I am pointing out the number of concurrent Brexit threads that aren’t deleted to contrast the deletion of pop-up/redirect and forum issue threads. You can’t lock one thread on the premise that it’s a duplicate and ignore many other duplicate threads* and to your earlier point, passports and fishing is obviously being discussed in the main Brexit thread too.

*well you can but it appears hypocritical.

More snark? Why don’t you just say what you think?

I do, and then I get responses like “more snark?”

But you’re not saying what you think, you’re acting as a spokesperson STW LTD, which you claim not to be.

I’m not “attacking” anyone, I’m just not rolling over and putting up with crap either. You want less snark, stop going on the offensive.

No one is going on the offensive against you, the “crap” is obviously not directed at you, but when you step in and behave as though you are protecting STW from it’s members you set yourself up as a target, needlessly, because then you turn around and repeat that you don’t speak for STW.

There are pictures at the scene where you can see her crumpled body lying by the side of the road right beside the car. They’ll ruin your day, very tragic. Obviously the driver reacted eventually. Apparently there are fully autonomous cars driving around Arizona with no human occupants at all, which makes me wonder if the tech on this car is such that it requires human supervision. I still can’t find any info on that though.

Edukator

The video is damning

My foot was, on the brake well before impact, try it. And that was with a tiny vido screen.

Well you definitely win today’s award for Best Driver of a Video Clip.

Cougar

How many Brexit threads have you locked today? This week? This month?

I’ve no idea, I wasn’t aware there was going to be a test or I’d have taken notes.

I’m guessing none, more sarcasm and attempting to downplay the fact that you’ve been caught in a lie. You’ve locked three “Forum Issue” threads today alone, neither of us can recall you locking a Brexit thread.

The rule of thumb I personally apply is,

Nothing…you have no idea.  You just admitted that.

if there’s two brexit threads running, one’s discussing passports and the other fishing rights, that’s two separate discussions.

700million people and thousands of potential issues. Every member of the forum could start a Brexit thread (and by the looks of it will), and yet all of them could just as easily be a post in the Brexit thread.

Standard snarky, aggressive, shaming reply from STW when they are at fault it seems.

I can’t possibly imagine why. (And I’m not “STW,” just to be clear.)

More snark? Why don’t you just say what you think? I’ll make it easy for you – no, you’re not STW but you’re constantly complaining on behalf of, and acting as the mouth piece/appologist for STW while pretending to be an impartial moderator and just another forum member. If the workload of moderating the forum is too much for you then pack it in. A mod should have a relatively simple task – keep discussion on topic and delete inappropriate material but you want to treat this as your sandbox when it suits and throw out the toys when it doesn’t.

If you’re not STW, and you’re not recieving any kind of remuneration from them then just moderate and stop attacking community members for being rightly aggrieved when they are treated as parasites.

Tool: Vicarious.

Cougar

And yet you turn a blind eye to every new daily/weekly thread where someone has a Brexit brain fart they need to broadcast.

That’s simply not true.  And if it were, you know where the “report post” button is.

How many Brexit threads have you locked today? This week? This month? I can see that you’ve locked mulitple Pop-up/forum issue threads. If the search function worked I’d prove how wrong you are. Also, you were the one who was scathing of people reporting posts they simply didn’t like, so whilst I don’t like the fact that people indulge their desire to whinge about Brexit in their own personal thread it’s not up to me to report it because it clearly doesn’t breach forum rules, clearly doesn’t feature offensive, inappropriate or abusive content and it’s “the culture” of STW to have multiple spammy threads, which results in hilarity. Unless those threads are about pop ups or forum problems, in which case, lock them quickly, they might find out!

If you werent so pro-active about trying to hide threads about pop-ups, redirects and general forum shitness the number of threads would probably be representative of the size of the problem. No one is fooled.

If you weren’t being so pro-active about spamming the same comments on multiple threads I might have more time to spend on keeping the rest of the forum tidy.

Really? Are people reporting my “spamming” comments?  If I get a pop up every time I use the forum shouldn’t I share that pop-up with the forum to give some insight, context, or detail as to what it’s like (although in reality I could never spam the forum as hard as the forum is currently spamming my phone). I don’t see any other forum members lambasting me for this behavior but I see many others sharing in/being subject to the same problems. The only one categorising my behaviour as problematic is you, and I put it to you that you are doing so in order to perpetuate the lie that forum isn’t a complete shambles. Standard snarky, aggressive, shaming reply from STW when they are at fault it seems.

You want to fill up half of the front page with threads all discussing the same thing, that’s not happening. Sorry.

Unless it’s Brexit.

This forum is the best. It’s a great, great forum. But there are some problems. Many, many problems. But we have top experts in cyber working around the clock, to make it great. Top experts, they’re so good you won’t believe. We are going to make this forum great again. And when we do there’s going to be new iphones and Brexit Threads for everyone. It’s going to be, so great. Amazing.

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/chucked-out-of-the-deletefacebook-thread-millionairres-want-this-thread-bann/

Cougar

If only there were 37 threads already discussing the issue.

And yet you turn a blind eye to every new daily/weekly thread where someone has a Brexit brain fart they need to broadcast. If you werent so pro-active about trying to hide threads about pop-ups, redirects and general forum shitness the number of threads would probably be representative of the size of the problem. No one is fooled.

You too? What a coincidence!

Nice of singletrackworld to give so many of it’s forum members new phones. That’s what’ll happen when we follow the link right? New phones? Couldn’t be anything spurious or damaging like malware. It seems perfectly reasonable that an upright and honest company with integrity would make sure that any ads or redirects on their site were kosher.

A lot of money at stake for whatever company achieves this.

Yeah you have to imagine that the company who develops the first reliable level 5 car will be able to license their tech to many other car manufacturers. The market for delivery / goods vehicles alone must be massive.

kcr

The other story still to play out is whether Analytica influenced the EU referendum.

Too late now isn’t it! And apparently no one cares because we all share our data, and anyone who does care is just paranoid.

It certainly shows the degree of alertness you can expect from a driver who has been ferried around town with no input required for a few hours. Certainly wouldn’t be banking on it as a failsafe.

I agree. I can’t find any real specific info on the car, it appears to be only level 2, so similar to a what Tesla and Audi currently offer for sale, if that had been any other state the driver would be 100% to blame but the laws in Arizona seem very lax; so much so that Uber apparently have a fleet of autonomous lorries on the state’s roads and another taxi app company, Waymo, have plans to introduce a fully autonomous taxi company there this year.

bikebouy

Yip, the epic that is Brexit in/out shake it all about.

Oh sorry, that’s not what I meant. The Brexit thread is awful. I was just making sure Brexit got a mention on this thread too, so that no thread avoids Brexit.

Brexit.

If conditions were like the comparison video shows, a human driver could reasonably be expected to at least start braking much earlier, perhaps changing the outcome to injury rather than death.

And yet there was a human driver in that car. I guess his degree of culpability depends on what grade of autonomy the car was supposed to be operating at and the relevant laws in that state.

@Malvern Rider – They’re still cars. You know, with a steering wheel and pedals.

footflaps

>Thats harder to do though since you do to get the volunteers out and also ensure they are competently trained.

Agreed, but it’s essentially the same thing, hence difficult to get upset about one if the other is perfectly OK at the same time….

The canvasser / newspaper ad analogies are not exactly accurate. If the Lib Dems run ads with conflicting messages in the FT and The Star they are still identifiably ads by the Lib Dems so someone/anyone can identify the lie. The Facebook ads are completely anonymous – the information they are targeting you with is not explicitly a party political broadcast.

The canvasser shows up at your house and has a very rough idea of who you are and they can perhaps tailor their message somewhat to you, but most importantly they are declaring who they are, what party they represent, what their policies are etc. The Facebook targeted ad is the equivalent of someone stalking you for a year, monitoring your emails and friends then showing up on your door pretending to be a friend of a friend or someone who’s just moved in next door…..they just happen to have a lot of facts and information that seems to resonate with things you’ve been interested in recently oh and by the way, did you know………

martinhutch

As I said, a group of scruffy surfers who message each other isn’t going to get any Political targeted messages or ads I’m afraid.. It certainly hasn’t to date and I doubt I ever will be targeted.

That’s the whole point of this kind of algorithm-based profiling – it works out who not to bother targeting with stuff as well as who to actually target.

Or they never know their being targeted. The website or blog they subscribe to about marine pollution actually has a political agenda designed to persuade or dissuade them very subtley.

Dezb

But what is being said is that <em class=”bbcode-em”>everyone should #deletefacebook, because <em class=”bbcode-em”>everyone is being tracked (even when they’re not using Facebook) and <em class=”bbcode-em”>everyone’s data can be used … I dunno, against them? To influence them?

It’s just not true.

Dez, you’re obviously more intelligent than the majority of Facebook users and you’re obviously impervious to any form of marketing, trickery or influence but it’s a platform used by anything from 1.4 – 2.2 billion people, many of who use it as their primary source of news.

Imagine you are a young black male in a state that has been identified as a swing state prior to the US election. Because of your ethnicity and zip code you’ve been determined to be unlikely to vote Trump, but there’s a chance you’ll vote Clinton. Facebook targets you (based on age, ethnicity and location) with material tailored to you, designed to undermine your confidence in Clinton and dissuade you from voting. You don’t know who is targeting you or why. The website / rabbit hole you are going down could simply be about men’s issues, sport, black culture, whatever, but the subtext is to assure you voting is pointless. Or it could just be complete and utter rampant lies and fabrication but we’ll never know because Facebook isn’t telling.

Contrast the effectiveness of that delivery method with Donald Trump himself addressing young black men and telling them not to vote. Would they be likely to obey Trump if he asked them not to vote for Clinton? Would they smell a rat if Vladimir Putin gave a press conference addressed to young black men in that specific state telling them not to vote for Clinton?

This isn’t “so much paranoia” as you put it, this is what actually happened. The man with his finger on the nuclear button may well be where he is because of targeted Facebook ads, paid for in rubles.

del

is this a push back by the mainstream media and the established political machine against the rise of ‘popularism’?

No it’s just people playing catch-up. This has been a major issue / is a massive issue going forward, it’s just that a clearly definable and newsworthy incident has meant it can be conveyed in a more real or believable way.

Dezb

<em class=”bbcode-em”>those kids will transfer to Facebook when they get a bit older.

What? So you think people <em class=”bbcode-em”>grow into Facebook. Don’t be daft.

Or just ignore the rest of my post….if they don’t migrate from Snapchat to Facebook it’ll be something else. And Facebook will either buy up that something else (like the day with Whatsapp and Instagram) or they’ll develop the next Facebook alternative. Or if it’s not Facebook it’ll be Google, or Apple and the issues will be the same. What’s daft about that statement?

theotherjonv

They’re not lies, it’s ‘alternative truth’

Seriously – I do care but while there are people, including some on here, that refuse to accept that we are routinely being lied to and hold people to account for those lies, then it won’t change. All that’s happening is that the lies are being targeted better towards those that will / want to believe them.

The context is important. The adds targeted at you, using metrics/qualifiers/data that you’re not aware of, based on a profile of you and you might be completely oblivious as to what the subtext is. If you switch on the tv and watch a party political broadcast it’s obvious who the party is, and who their opponent is. A targeted Facebook ad is (on the surface) impartial and the website, video or information it leads you to may well appear impartial or at least, not blatantly partisan for one side or another – it’s just information.

Dezb

Then she starts getting bullied via Facebook

Except hardly any kids use Facebook.

That doesn’t change the fact that people upload pictures of their kids to Facebook, and those kids will transfer to Facebook when they get a bit older. And if they don’t Facebook will simply buy the next big thing that comes along and integrate it into Facebook. Or if something comes along which supercedes Facebook you’ll have the same issues and we’re still at the same point.

Or if Facebook doesn’t buy the next big thing Google or Amazon will. The aim of these companies is to win as much of your time and money as possible, there’s not a scrap of ethical thought behind it. And I’ll caveat that by saying I still have a facebook account which I use for small e-commerce stuff but not on my phone.

<div>Malvern Rider
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<div>Member</div>
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</div>
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Punishment passes

Holy shit. Let’s hope close passes become a thing of the past.  As for the desire to ‘punish’ cyclists (for what) with near/actual homicide?  Hopefully that too will go the way of the white rhino.

</div>

The “punishment” would be for holding the driver up for a few seconds, or for passing them in slow moving traffic, or perhaps even filtering past stationary cars. I thought it was a fairly common term among cyclists.

aracer

TBH I’m sure Google has far more information on me as I’ve authorised it to have a lot more info – I ain’t going to be deleting Google.

Well you could use a different search engine, but i feel like we’re just scraping the surface of this problem here. Imagine you share pictures of your children on Facebook (as many people do) and by a combination of image recognition and your likes and interests Facebook determines that you are overweight. It knows who your wife is, she’s also overweight and getting fatter.

Now your daughter is entering puberty and Facebook’s image recognition can see she’s gaining weight. Her search history includes diet advice. Then she starts getting bullied via Facebook, Facebook recognises that she is at an emotionally low point and starts targeting her with adverts for sugary foods and drinks, or even plastic surgery. And because of google home/ Or Amazon echo it concentrates it’s marketing just before you order your weekly shop so your daughter can either add this to the list or ask you to get it.

That’s not even outlandish, it’s basically happening. It could probably guess what diseases you’re likely to suffer from and start selling you medication, for better or for worse.

Malvern Rider

I think we’ll see the equivalent of ‘jay-cycling’ laws not too long after the jay-walking ones take effect.

Tesla’s autopilot already recognises cyclists, although it classifies them as cars. Because it’s a Level 2 partial automaton it still requires the driver to initiate the overtaking maneuver. Not sure I’d want to be the one to guinea pig it, but with level 5 automation there’s a pretty good chance the car will actually give you safe distance when overtaking. Punishment passes might actually be confined to the past.

Franksinatra

I struggle to care that much about data mining. Everyone is doing it, Tesco, Google, Microsoft etc etc.

Do you care about politics? Would you care if someone used lies to win an election? Tesco might mine your data in order to make you fat. Facebook mined people’s data, sold that data and many people believe it altered the outcome of the US election.

nedrapier

It’s not the mining necessarily, it’s the power to to target many, many small groups with hot-button ads specifically tuned to grab them emotionally, and the fact that voters are denied sight of all the other ads specifically tuned for people nothing like them.

Person in group A sees his ads and thinks “Hey, he’s really talking my language! He gets me! He’s got my vote!”.

If he could see what was being promised to groups B-Z, hie might wonder whether “his guy” was in fact a two-faced bastard prepared to say anything to anyone for votes, and be a little bit more circumspect about how likely it was that said bastard really had his interests at heart.

It’s not just that…..the ads can be and are linked to external websites, the veracity of which is anyone’s guess and Facebook doesn’t check them and won’t reveal what they are. So you can say anything you want about your political opponent because you’re not saying it, you’re campaign managers are paying a 3rd party to attract voters to a website built by a 4th party which carries a slanderous message about your opponent and it’s targeted at the specific demographic you’ve identified as being disinterested or undecided in your opponent’s message.

Edukator

Go on Jimjam, flounce, please. Sadly it’s the reasonable, balanced folk who are leaving whilst the determined ban dodgers, conspiracy theorists, trolls, deluded, disgraced, water-off-duck’s-back Internet warriors have the will to fight on.

*sings “Into the valley…”*

I’ve done my bit to keep the posting rate up to today, I’ve felt poorly. I’m feeling better this eveing though so can’t be counted on tomorrow – do something Mark, Chips and Co., this is all feeling a bit Bikemagic.

Pardon?

My phone has just gone absolutely mental…..on this site alone. What a shit show.

Presumably you think the creator of this meme should go to jail too?

kilo

So if it’s entirely subjective and I said I don’t see any humour in the activity what was the point of your post, did you figure I couldn’t understand the concept of a juxtaposition?

No, your exact words were “Don’t see any joke”, not “I don’t see the humour” or “I don’t find it funny”. “Don’t see any joke” implies that you cannot see a joke, or the mechanism which causes it to be funny. So if you did see that it was a juxtaposition and chose to ignore that, then you posted a lie, presumably to signal how virtuous you are.

Edukator

I was an initial fan of the driverless idea but the more I’ve thought about it the more I’ve realised that driverless cars that are fast enough to satisfy the Jimjams will be too much of a liability for the manufacturers and their insurers so we’ll end up with the worst of both worlds. Driverless cars with manual override.

You should know you don’t have a point  and you’re just trying to win when you’re trying to ascribe views to people that they don’t hold. At no point have I said that I want AV’s to go faster than the speedlimit because I personally want to go faster. I’ve already explained that in my opinion AV’s will be allowed to go faster because market forces will create a demand for them, technology will facilitate them and governments will tax them.

When all cars are electric how do you calculate VED? Co2? Nope. You create separate tiers that allow AV’s with better tech to go faster than those without and let the people who want to avail of that tech pay more.

kilo

And the element of humour in this juxtaposition is?

…entirely subjective. The fact that you don’t see it, aren’t willing to acknowledge, or deny that it exists doesn’t mean that holds true for everyone else. The ironic juxtaposition of Hitler, and a Pug can be considered amusing because of how different they are, and the taboo subject matter. It can be either, or both, or none.