Just to close this off:
I asked On One directly on the difference between current Inbred 29er 16″ and 18″ frame size handling based on 16″ having 71° and 18″ having 72° head angle.

Their prompt reply was that the 18″ is a little bit more agile as the effect of the steeper head angle is partly compensated by the longer (0.7″) top tube.

Thanks to everybody here for their comments.
Thanks to On One for their quick reply.

Looking forward to the 18″ frame! 😀

Thread closed?!

thanks kudos!

Talas is adjustable but with 100/120/140 at the tall end for my liking.
Will look into 80/100/120 forks though.

I don’t know if you want a driver’s car and/or something fast, but if you liked your Lotus but want something that you get in and out of relatively easy and with seats in the back (sort of) you might want to look for a LOTUS EVORA!!! 8)

I know people who stuffed their kids incl. child seats in the back row and someone even got his road bike – with just the wheels taken out – in the back.

The handling is Lotus-like brilliant, the steering is telepathic and the ride is better than most sporty saloons (really). 3.5ltr V6 engine is torquey but not very revy. Sports exhaust definitely helps to give it some soul.
Negative: detail finish in the interior, high-ish fuel consumption, notchy gear shift if rushed, reliability can be an issue (mainly electronic glitches), but you had a Lotus so you know what I mean. I guess.
Avoid: cars without rear bench -> the parcel shelf provides less space than the seat bench, resale value higher in 2 plus 2 guise. Also avoid standard ratio gear box (very long, lower fuel consumption and noise on long haul as only benefit)

Starting from 32,XXX, sub 15k mileage in pistonheads’ classifieds. 80 cars in pistonheads, demand deemed to be not so very high -> you should be able to haggle towards your upper budget limit.

Runners up:
– TVR Cerbera: yes, they don’t make them anymore, but you mentioned you like TVRs and this one has 2 plus 2 seats. It is/looks like a brute. Delirious interior styling, too. And it will be out of order most of the time. And if it’s not it might try to kill you.
– Nissan GT-R: very surprised that nobody mentioned it yet (then again it’s a bike forum :roll:), very fast, very impressive, not that much above your budget
– Porsche 911 (997): Bomb proof quality and performance (you can take a Porsche to a track day on Sunday without any need to pre-book a service on Monday, not so true with many other wannabe sporty cars), C4 4WD version has less front boot space than C2, avoid Automatic which is sluggish
– 911 GT3: the very best! but 2 seats only and too track focused for most (then again you had a Lotus)
– M3: Also nice, but I never liked the SMG drivetrain, so I would go for manual
– C63 AMG: surprisingly good! this is the first AMG that actually cared about handling, the Auto box is not too annoying and it has a real hooligan character hidden in there, comes as estate, too
– Mazda RX-8: odd one out but 2 plus 2 seats, good handling, quirky half suicide door solution ((relatively) good for loading the bike in the rear I guess), quirky rotary engine, below your budget (but you will need your savings for the fuel)

I liked the idea of the 996 Turbo: a little porky but has proper supercar pace despite stunning real world all-weather qualities (you can roll it matt-black and have really bad rat car).

Personally I would also consider an Impreza (boxer sound, all-wheel magic, rally pedigree suits MTB passion…?!), a Porsche 968 (proper hatch practicality, super balanced chassis, no depreciation) and the first E30 BMW E30 (devine driver-car-interaction, no depreciation).

I would not recommend E55s and VXR8s as they are just fast and powerful.
But I would not consider a FS bike either. 😆

Enjoy!

nice bike, pastcaring!!
———————————
I’ve been out with low pressure in the Talas in an attempt to mimic a shorter fork (yeah, not ideal…).
Now I know at least what some people here meant with “it tucks in”. 😕

Anyway: it still confirmed to me that I prefer the steering with a shorter fork – it gets rabid rapid!
And the tucking in was probably more to being silly short when pushed into turns with the lack of pressure. 😳

Let’s see where I can take it from here.. slightly longer stem… … different fork… …just short and taut… or short and rigid..? Will see! 🙂

Hi chiefgrooveguru,

thanks for your reply!

I’ll give the “weight forward when cornering”-advise a little more tries and time but it’s quite a shift in riding-style for me (not necessarily a bad thing).

I’m used to ride tight and twisty singletracks seated while pedalling to keep the speed up, only coasting in very tight apexes, as it’s pretty flat round here. I can imagine that a “weight forward” approach works better when you can coast down most parts of a singletrack while standing.

The longer stem (e.g. 90mm instead of current 70mm) would help me to shift weight forward while still sitting and pedaling.

Anyway, I’ll try both: weight forward and more sag=shorter fork before switching stems (or ultimately the frame).

Thanks again for your advise, makes me try new things! 😯 😮 😕 😉 🙂 😀

Hendrik

By the way: does anyone know what kind of travel and head angles 4x bikes have? Then again they are probably standing most of the time… 😐

away from xc fast handling to “trail fun”

fair enough! 🙂

Thanks for the link!

P.S.: The whole thing about “just go and test some bikes” is not the ultimate cure some make believe.

It took me at least 3-4 rides and one stem swap before I got to grips with if and how much I liked my new 29er (actually true for every new bike irrelevant of wheel size). So going for a test ride is good, but I am not sure it’s the one and only solution and it’s certainly not the end of all threads “should I go 29er?”.

And why should it?

😛

wheel size is irrelevant

it might be less important than some think but it’s surely not irrelevant

buying a bike based on the opinions of others

it’s more about narrowing it down, isn’t it?!

In the real world you will neither have the time nor the LBS (bike as demo available) to have a complete picture by testing all the relevant bikes in 26 and 29 guise. So most of us who are in the process to go 29er will want to narrow it down somehow. And if it’s only to spend the time testing more efficiently by choosing test bikes that are most likely to suit.

When I finally bought my 29er I knew that it’s still trial and error to some degree even though I had done some research here and elsewhere. BUT the research definitely helped me to decide whether a) 29er would suit me at all b) to narrow the choice down to maybe 2-3 bikes/frames.

😐 😕 🙂

Hi Brant,

thanks for your reply – why did you slack the head angle on the large 29ers then?
What’s the difference going to be? And how big/what is the difference between the current 16″ and 18″ frame?

Might be a reason to get one of the last (14…?) old 18″ frames for me.
Though I like the new petrol blue/green colour. Miss the floral head badge though.

Are there any pictures of the 3 different rear ends available yet?
Especially the slot/drop/SS/geared one?!

Cheers!

Hi Parisroubaix,

I have had an Inbred 29er for a few month now after years of 26er hardtail and have just gone back to another 26. Some things have been mentioned already here or in other threads. I’d still like to share my quite recent experience. Hope it helps! Just for info: I like fun CC flat singletracking, I can bunny hop but that’s about it, I don’t do DH, bike parks, rocks.

My 5pence then:
– 26 is great, 29 too
– in the end it comes down to personal preference
– and riding style and type of landscape you ride in and height
-> so have the test ride really…

BUT some shared experiences might help to have a few pre-conceptions of what the difference might be (or are pre-conceptions a bad thing? in this case?)
– from my experience the difference is not huge-huge
– it might be more down to non-29er induced differences when people describe their 29er experiences (incl. me)
– i.e. the difference between two 26er with different character can easily be bigger than between a 26 and a similar “spirited” 29er
– 29er (by trend) seem to be great for steady, efficient long distance CC type riders
– 26 is great for more technical, fun-oriented riders (then again fun is in the hands of the beholder, isn’t it? Grip and comfort can make a ride more fun, too, for me it’s the chuckability that makes the fun)

Pro 29er:
– the GRIP! in corners and uphill (and no, I didn’t have exactly the same tread pattern on both bikes but Nobby Nics on the 26er and Spec. The Captain on the 29er might be close enough)
– I felt – and also read this from other experiences – that 29er give more confidence due to their grip advantage, maybe also due to tendency of longer wheelbase
– concerning all the stuff on momentum/pace and comfort I can’t really say that this was so much different for me (again difficult to compare if there is more than just wheel size as a variable)

Pro 26:
– I just loved the way my old 26er wriggled away beneath me when I got back on it after 2 month 29er
– it’s more chuckable, more playful, more agile, more UNDER you, more fun (and my 26 is an old steep but long CC geometry, not a bike park funster and heavier than the 29er!)
– as they say you sit ON a 26 and IN a 29
– while the latter might feel more confidence inspiring to some I don’t mind sitting ON and ABOVE the bike as it seems to give me more control
– it also felt like the 26er (at least with my bike) just has a tighter turning cycle and needs less persuading/pushing around tight bends

SUMMARY
I’d have both. If pressed I would prefer the 26 for my fun-biased CC riding on tight, twisty singletracks.

But I am already looking at getting a 29er again to go alongside the 26er. In which case – contrary to the 29er-SS-rigid wisdom – the 29er might become the geared race and tour stead and the 26er the SS fun woodster.

Enjoy! Whatever you choose to ride! 😉

at Northwind:
tried your “cloth tape” method before fiddling with adapted mounts and it works perfectly!
Rather than gaffer tape I now used left-overs from a racket grip band and the 872 stayed in position throughout the ride.

Thanks! Saved me some handicraft work I’m not any good in anyway…

subjectively: yes, it feels like less resistance! Maybe helped by the lack of noise.
I “think” that dragging the chain through the zigzag of the rear mech alone creates resistance.

No experience with those winter boots but if your priority is on warm and dry feet get some neoprene overshoes!

For me they work really well. At the end of a ride I might have slightly damp feet (from sweat more then from rain/spray) but they are warm!

And I ride them with normal cotton socks.

Thanks, MarkiMark!

I have the Soul meanwhile, running it with 100/120/140 Talas.
While it’s OK I miss really trusty point-into-the-bend-and-track front end grip.
It feels as if the front wheel is going wide sometimes.

I will try a longer stem (currently 70mm) and more sag.
(Never seems to engage in the 100mm position- is this a common problem?)
And then maybe a proper 100mm or a 80/100/120 fork or a rigid 440mm fork.

Service has been mentioned, but what is service exactly?

For me GlennG’s ‘not clueless yet not patronising’ bit is important.

If someone works in a shop and actually rides bikes, tests products, cares for his customers’ experiences (e.g. by sharing (shop) rides with them or just being approachable and patient enough so that customers come back and bother to give you feedback), maybe even keeps informed beyond his local radar (mags, forums, races), but can STILL accept that his personal preference might not be everyone’s cup of tea – that’s quite an achievement and a good start to provide good service.

Ah, and people – be it in a bike shop or anywhere else – should actually like their job. If you don’t like to meet – not to mention talk to – people please stay in the workshop. While a mechanic who knows his stuff AND rides his stuff AND likes to talk and share his insights is probably ideal.

And that’s why I like Street Life in Norwich so much!

85kg+kit here, no bombing or dropping but bunny hopping logs etc.
29er Hope Evo2 Crest wheels fine for me, too! Go for it!

Just for info (and even though they don’t seem to ship abroad):

Fixie Inc. has gone bankrupt, bikes from inventory are sold at neckermann.de, some at substantial rebate, e.g.:
– FIXIE Inc. Pure Blood with SRAM Force: €1,999 instead of €2,799
– FIXIE Inc. Pure Blood frame+fork kit: €849 instead of €1,199
(current exchange rate 1.00GBP equals 0.83 Euros)

Neckermann is one of the big traditional mail-order companies in Germany (so odd sales channel choice really).
As far as I understand they don’t ship abroad and don’t have a UK subsidiary…

Here’s the link where they have Fixie bikes and bits on offer:
http://www.neckermann.de -> search for Fixie in the top “Suche” box.

To make it complete here’s a list of retailers that have or had Pure Bloods as test bikes in the UK:

Cadence Ltd.
BA1 3PP Bath
+44 1225 446887

Prestige Cycles Ltd.
BN3 3YB Hove, East Sussex
+44 1273 960194

Zero G – Garlands Ltd.
BS3 1EN Bristol
+44 117 9660743

Edinburgh Bicycle Co-operative Ltd
EH29 9EN Edinburgh
+44 845 2570808

The Bike Shed
EX17 3AN Crediton, Devon
+44 1363 774773

Mosquito Bikes
N1 2SN London
+44 20 72268765

Royles Paragon Commerce Ltd.
SK9 3HW Cheshire
+44 1625 543450

@sputnik: standard magic shine solution with o-rings tends to wander around the bar when the going get’s a little rougher, e.g. light beam pointing at your front tyre after a bump. Not good if there’s a second bump coming. Or a zombie…

Can be bettered with putting some gaffer tape around the bar to increase diameter and provide a grippier surface but a rock-steady solution is what you want really.

So,
– the Halfords thingy worked
– the lumicycle worked -> is there a link to the correct one?
– the Hope works -> dito
– and which Electron exactly works?

Thanks for the help!

Hock

the Electron mounts seem to be in stock again:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=6091

Were mentioned as a good solution with minimal tweaking some threads/months/years ago.

What work’s best from your experience?

Cheers!

@renton:

– Passats more common in company car fleets than Touran -> more Passats as 2nd hand cars on offer
– high demand for Touran as 2nd hand car buy because practical for young families

Yes, saddles are a subjective and individual thing and yes there’s no alternative to some trial and error testing and yes a good bike shop with test saddles makes the whole process less time- and money-consuming.

But you still have to test. From my experience it helps to narrow the choice of potential saddles down by realising that it’s not only the actual shape which makes a difference but also the padding. Furthermore and maybe most crucial is the type/area of discomfort that one has experienced before.

In my case it’s rather the crotch than the sit bones which ached after a while. Based on that I focused on saddles with firm padding and a pressure relief channel. Padding which is too soft bulges up between your legs. More so when they are old which maybe a reason why saddles become uncomfortable over time. I also found that saddles with a very round surface, i.e. an arch from left to right had a similar effect on me maybe by spreading the sit bones/hip apart (or simply being higher in the middle than on the sides).

In the end I found the perfect saddle for me (SQlab 611). It comes in 3 width, has very firm padding, a flat surface and a “step” in the profile in addition to the channel. The bike shop helped with measuring the right width (without touching 😉 ) and offered to take it back within 14 days of testing. Perfect!

Cheers!
Hendrik

By the way: sitting more upright can also be an (easy and cheap) option to improve on (seemingly) saddle induced ache.

Hi renton,

as you seem to be down to Passat vs. Touran let me share some thoughts from owning a 1st model Touran / last model Passat (with eBrake before recent facelift) / current model Touran.

I’ve read through most of the thread and many things have been mentioned so I’d just like to add:

I prefer the Touran for
– it’s ease of loading (boxy space, higher rear door aperture, more height throughout the car (handy for bikes and Ikea trips))
– it’s 7 seat option (if you take 3rd party kids along or have visitors and still want to talk while going somewhere) -> but 5 seat version has even more load height in the boot due to lower floor
– for being/feeling slightly wider on the rear bench
– for being more flexible inside (rear seats do individually fold or collapse forward and are easy to remove completely -> it’s like a van when every thing’s out – in a good way)
– for being short on the outside and really big inside (good for parking!)
– for being surprisingly fast and fun, even chuckable on those entertaining B-roads (if you don’t take it by the scruff and find the flow)

The Passat
– felt more refined in terms of perceived quality and finish inside
– is less noisy which makes a difference on long trips (I assume more insulation and less boxy/big volume)
– long wheelbase and lower point of gravity make it more comfortable (but not more fun/agile) to drive
– the Passat has a higher status factor (I don’t care and am happily back in the Touran)
– some people feel as if they had vasectomy (or worse) when seen in MPVs (I don’t)

Both models share many components. Me thinks the Passat just tends to have more trick eStuff in there so more potential for trouble. The 1st generation Touran was a high milage 136hp 2.0 TDI with PD (Pumpe Düse). We had multiple issues with the injection system and the auxiliary heating. So the used car guarantee insurance was unfortunately well worth it. The Passat and 2nd Touran were/are new (company) cars and we had no problems at all (both 20K mls).

So while the Passat is more refined the Touran is more practical and more fun. We often sit in it after a long journey and are amazed how good the car is and how well it suits an active family life (kids 4 and 5).

SUMMARY
I would recommend (for the budget) to go for a 1st generation (but facelift) Touran plus one of those used car insurances. Consider treating yourself to the DSG transmission as it works perfectly (and I hate conventional auto transmissions). (Then again if you don’t know it you won’t miss it.)

With more budget I would still go for a Touran, maybe 1 year old current generation.

All the best with your decision!

Hendrik

Slimjim, if you love curry AND kebab I will most probably love a Soul with 120s, too! 🙂
Thanks mattjg! I will need a Medium frame and Surrey is a little far off for me.
Bob, I will test the Soul with 470mm rigids and/or an adjustable travel suspforks first.

Best regards
Hendrik

P.S.: The frame I can get comes in the rather “interesting” custard colour. I’m tempted to give it a “trifle themed” colour treatment with a few white and red bits (as icing/cream/cherry on the cake/pudding so to speak) but shall stick to my more stealthy black/grey componentry.

Hm, thought about the 26er Inbred, too but had the impression that its geometry is quite similar to the Cotic’s.

On One 26 Inbred in M
– 70/73° Head Angle based on fully extended 80mm fork
– 589mm (effective, i.e. horizontal) top tube
– 105mm head tube
– 425mm chainstay

Cotic Soul in Medium (17.5)
– 70/73° Head Angle with 25mm sagged 100mm fork
– 590mm top tube (effective or “non-effective”?)
– 110mm head tube
– 420mm chainstay

So from a front triangle point of view the two should be very similar in terms of:
– agility
– suitability for 80mm respectively 100mm forks

On One states that it is suitable for max 120mm forks on their homepage, but that’s probably rather down to CEN Health&Safety stuff than actual difference to the recommended 100mm to 140mm span of the Soul.

And if they are that similar (ARE THEY? ANY EXPERIENCE IN COMPARISON?) I’d rather have the Cotic.

Quite like the idea of converting the DMR Trailstar into a fun 80mm cross country bike but that’s probably again trying to force one’s own projections onto a frame rather than doing it justice. Or creating a new niche: 4XC.

Let’s see!

And many thanks for all the input!

Hendrik

😀

Great example for what forums are good for:
– good advise if you can read around the babble
– good fun if you don’t
– best if you enjoy both, the advise and the babble

And despite the curry/kebab example I do think that you can get valuable advise if you describe what you want and (at least as important) what you don’t want because some people might think “Hey, this is what I like/don’t like and this how/where I ride and this is what worked for me.” Sometimes it would be easier if the others who clearly like different things and ride in different places back off for a moment, but hey!

What was actually quite helpful for me (and maybe obvious for others) was the remark that you have to ride a long travel hardtail (LTH?!) more aggressively. Because this is clearly what I don’t want! I want to flow with the trail not push the front into the dirt in each bend. (And in that way I might need the steep angles as a skill compensator, nick1962! Just like you need the long travel. :P)

I also appreciate BWD’s hint that the Soul might not be my cup of tea after all as it was and is designed as a longish travel hardtail. Maybe I am just too much in love with the idea of owning a Soul. So thanks for the long-winded reply to my long-winded question, BWD! 😉

And thus I will actually go with CCG’s advise and look for a 71/73° steel frame optimized for 80mm suspension forks that allows me to have an even weight distribution and a short stem. Maybe a short wheelbase thrown in for good measure.
But are there any left apart from the mentioned Enigma?
Any recommendations? Similar in price and “appeal” to the Cotic?

Apart from that I will try to get some more understanding of how the Soul copes with 80-100mm forks and if that’s light-footed enough for me. The statistics of this thread suggest so: 2 people said 80mm rigid works fine, 6 people wrote that 100 is fine, agile and not twitchy, only 1 said that 100mm tucks under.

One guy wrote that 65° is the new slack. 😯

Someone wrote that someone else is an idiot whereas others said he’s not but a legend and in the end someone took the idiot back.

What a merry bunch! 🙂

Cheers!

Hendrik

Many thanks! Summary of the above steers me to give Soul with 100mm a go.
(one should have ridden a Soul at least once anyway and if it’s just to be able to have a halfway qualified opinion on what seems to be a third of the forum topics)
Would still be interested in 80mm (or rigid) fork experience!

@seanock: a 440mm rigid fork resembles travel adjusted 80mm suspension fork, right? So if that rides OK (is that quite OK or actually just bearable?) but 100mm suspension fork was too twitchy you must have had a lot of dive?

@Del: I do ride 600mm on my trusty old Xc steed indeed 🙂 bike tested had 670mm though but I will take into account that wide bars can pull me a little forward for future set-up

@Northwind: 2kg Soul is absolutely OK light by my standards and while I don’t mind racing once in a while that’s not the priority for the set-up, same here: level of fitness doesn’t justify fine-tuning the bike for race results 🙂

@crotchrocket: well, if I like curry chances are that I’m fine with kebab (both spicy/oriental) while bored with bangers and mash so I might actually get steered into the right direction 🙂

Cheers so far!

Hendrik

Update:
Got hold of a 60mm stem today (instead of my former 100mm):
steering improved, less hassle in tight turns, overall agility improved!
So that’s going in the right direction.

Only unwanted side effect: more understeer, I assume due to less weight on front-wheel/less traction.

An 18″ frame won’t necessarily deal with that problem, will it?

Cheers!

Hendrik

Many thanks to all!
Will try shorter fork and shorter stem depending on how easy I can get hold of them.

If it all doesn’t work out in the right way there might be a tikka-orange Inbred 29er 16″ up for swap for an 18″ one. Or a 26er Inbred…

🙂

Good night!

Hendrik

Hi Brant,

wow, Feedback from the designer himself! Thanks!

Sounds like a bad idea then, right? At least for off-road cross-country single track fun.

As mentioned I love the balance and handling. Grip is phenomenal, too and if it breaks tractions, the backend steps out of line first, thereby tightening the line and allowing for easily controlled mini-drifts. Fun!

The only thing is that I have to manhandle the front end through tighter turns.
What would you recommend in order to improve on this?

– shorter stem?
– different bars?
– 26er Inbred?

See I’m 6ft and the frame is 16″ with Salsa low risers and a 100mm -10° stem.
A shorter stem might put me too far behind the BB for efficient pedaling.

Any ideas very welcome!

Cheers!

Hendrik

P.S.:

http://bikegeo.muha.cc/ says 40mm shorter fork makes:
-> 2° steeper angles
-> 12mm shorter wheelbase
-> 6mm shorter effective to tube
-> but 20mm longer reach
-> 16mm less BB height

thus I could see me fitting a 20mm shorter stem and have agility (or twitchiness) galore!

Apart from the mighty steep angles it sounds not so bad to me!

Hendrik