Hi loddrik

Since we're sharing…

I grew up in an aspirant suburb of Bradford, comprehensive school, university, teacher training (ducks below parapet). Currently work with all sorts of characters (some young offenders) in a job where a drugs conviction can be a career wrecker (I've chosen to say nothing about my own use or otherwise).

I've not said that crime wouldn't transfer to other activities. I'm not deluded in this respect. The point that I'm making is that we are able to make a choice about whether we support crime through our own activities.

This seems to be an uncomfortable choice that frustratingly (for me) many on here seem simply unwilling to acknowledge. I'm curious as to where this come from. It doesn't seem a high horse position to me. It's just about "do I contribute to a bad situation or do I not".

I'd have thought that where most people have the choice. Most people would "do the right thing". Surprising to me that so many on here seem to be saying:

But I really like drugs and…
…me stopping won't change anything
…it's just the way it is
…I don't see the connection
…I don't care what happens to other people

A bit dispiriting to be honest.

Thanks for your candour loddrik and others

PS – By the way and for the record. I am in favour of legalisation in principle and am not anti-drugs per se. I agree that to some degree "laws make criminals" and much drugs law seems to be a case in point.

You don't know me, do you loddrik. About my upbringing and background, education, experience of drugs or with criminality and the law because I've told you none of these things. You've told me about your relatively heavy illegal drug consumption and about the neighbourhood you grew up in.

Tell me what's so good about illegal drugs that's worth:

A relative having their possessions stolen
A friend being injured in a street robbery
A stranger being tortured and killed

Because if I knew there was something I could do to stop these things happening or even limit my contribution among that of a thousand others, you know, I'd think about it.

From your posts I'm not sure you would.

A question. OK 2 questions.

Aside from the possibility of addiction, why do you take illegal drugs?

Eg. For fun

What level of drug-related crime would a relative/friend/stranger have to suffer to make you think about stopping because you feel that somehow your habit contributed?

Eg. Relative has possessions stolen. Friend is injured in street robbery. Stranger is tortured and killed.

alex222

You are absolutely right. I do all of those things.

It's just where I know something to have bad consequences, and I have a choice to do something else, I try to avoid making a situation worse. I acknowledge that world trade and aid is a complex and sometimes immoral business.

It just seems that where people knowingly choose, solely for their self acknowledged pleasure, activities which contribute to misery easily observed on their own doorstep, I can't help thinking that that is a selfish choice.

In your post you make refernece to how 3rd world debt was formed and I'm sure you're right about the past roles of rich countries in this. Judged by today's standards (and even of the time) it's difficult to credit these actions as being moral. However, the immoral and unjust events of the past don't justify continued immoral and unjust events today. IMO where we know better we have a duty to try to do better. Otherwise the world gets worse, not better. Also to be complacent and say "it's always been like that", "there's nothing I can do" is defeatist and denies the capacity of each of us to do better for ourselves and for society in general.

We can start by not knowingly contributing to violence by buying illegal drugs. Even if they are really good illegal drugs. :-)

I may be naive. I prefer idealistic. :wink:

Do a bike tour.

Head out after work Sunday evening. Get as far as you can in one direction then pedal/train/taxi back for work next Saturday evening. See how far you get. Do each point of the compass over consecutive weeks.

I try my best kimbers, I try. Where I have choices I try to make good ones. By no means am I saying I have always made good choices, I continue to screw up from time to time and doubtless I'll foul up in future.

Can't see how to take a position against robbery, beating, murder etc. is to be on any sort of "high horse". It's normal to find these things unpleasant, no?

You got me there sweepy.

I guess that would really be the case if your growers were just passing it on to their friends (maybe just at cost price) and making sure that none of their stuff was being traded on and that they weren't unknowingly exacerbating turf wars among the proper dealers because they were undercutting them or somehow normalising an activity which is currently illegal.

I guess the only sure fire way to do it, without the unpleasant side effects, is growing solely for one's own use. In secret.

I note that you say "most of my drugs".

I agree that many of our actions, even legal ones, have unpleasant consequences for others. I try to minimise mine.

U31

You keep taking the drugs and I'll keep believing that you support crime which extends to beatings, robbery and murder. It's a selfish and anti-social choice you make and one that you acknowedge in your post.

I hope that all the baddies you meet are only in your head.

U31

You may be right that the law/society is wrong but this doesn't change the fact that, currently, when you choose to buy illegal drugs you, currently, choose to support other forms of crime which, currently, impact on us all.

PS – it's not "my society", it's ours. And it's not "illegal", it's illegal.

sweepy

I think legalisation may have its merits. There have been clinical/statistical studies which suggest that the harm of some currently illegal drugs may be less than some legal activities.

This doesn't negate the fact that currently when you choose to take drugs you currently choose to support criminals.

In my view, currently, the choice to take drugs is a selfish and antisocial one. Currently.

The jist of your argument in favour of taking currently illegal drugs seems to be based around a situation which doesn't currently exist.

If drugs were legal I might start to recreationally indulge but, currently, I'd feel bad knowing that I was contributing to signifcant levels of distinctly unpleasant crime.

loddrik

How I might come across to my kids in private may be very different to how I come across here. I'm happy for you that your kids feel they can talk to you. I hope they stay/stayed kids long enough for you and them to enjoy their childhood. The pressures of adolescence/adulthood come very quickly. A certain amount of sheilding's no bad thing.

My point is:

Under the current law if you choose to take drugs you choose to support criminal activity that effects all of us.

That's not a naive belief. It's a fact borne of experience. If one chooses to take drugs in the knowledge of that fact then, IMO, one has made a selfish and antisocial choice.

sweepy.

I agree, drugs don't in themselves cause crime and I'm not especially anti-drugs. But the reality is that currently the illegal drugs industry is run by criminals who commit crimes which go beyond the trade in the drugs themselves and extend to the sorts of antisocial and criminal activities I've mentioned. The victims of these crimes are not just drug users and drug dealers. They are all of us.

Currently, when you decide to buy an illegal drug you currently also choose to support current criminal activity.

One doesn't have to be a "moral guardian" to object to the behaviours of those who choose to contribute to criminal activity from which we all suffer.

If I see my local trail strewn with litter do I add my junk to the pile with a shrug and a "this place was always going to be a mess and anyway my bit of junk's not as bad as some of that other stuff" OR do I take my junk home and think about how I can organise a clean up and encourage others not to litter.

Some of you guys are new here from MBUK right?

But sweepy. Illegal drugs are illegal now and right now their use supports illegal activity.

When they're legal I won't have this objection but if you choose to take drugs now you choose (in a small but undeniable way) to support having someone shot, beaten up, stolen from – whatever.

To believe otherwise seems naive.

Your justification is shaky alex222.

You're right that lots of things lead to murder and petty crime and correct to question whether illegal drugs are more responsible than other factors.

I don't see that either of these points are justification for adding to the sum of human misery through illegal drug taking.

By not taking illegal drugs one is also not contributing to other illegal activity. By taking them one is.

PS – I agree with some of the points made about legalisation and its potential to reduce risk and also about not sacking experts and harm reduction.

However, when one makes a conscious choice to buy an illegal drug one is also making a choice to support a whole range of other illegal and unpleasant activities.

My "moral objection" is not some abstract judgement I make from some high ground position. It's a straightforward and down to earth belief that contributing to crime is wrong.

A few posters have commented on the long term symptoms, not to the user but, to the rest of us and this is a fair point.

Both drugs are illegal and the use of them supports illegal activity which goes all the way from petty crime to murder. Happy to tell that to your kids loddrik?

Whatever the arguments about the desirability of future legalisation, illegal drug use is not an abstract moral issue. It's deeply antisocial and selfish.

Drug takers in unusual behaviour shocker.

Really DavidB, it's very likely to be too low tyre pressures. I'd not ridden my FS for ages and didn't notice that I was running my tyres at very low pressures. MAYBE compounded by narrow tubes & fat tyres. This caused the tyre to slip on the rim under heavy braking and rip off the valve. I felt a right tit once I sussed it out. This after changing rim tapes from insulating tape. Pumping the tyres to a decent pressure sorted it though the bike shop showed me a nifty trick of putting washing up liquid on the beads which goes sticky once the tyres are pumped up. Strange but true.

The pulled valve is most likely down to running too low tyre pressure. Learned this lesson myself not too long ago.

Think that the "couple of hours just to get you started" idea's a good one. Maybe your BiL just needs to feel a bit of blokey "problem shared" vibe and the confidence to get stuck into what might be a daunting task. Maybe not getting much help from his Mrs. Perhaps in future just offer to be on the end of the phone if tips are needed but to be "a bit tied up" if your presence is required. Maybe worth having a "so, what you got planned" chat from time to time to help him think through and anticipate what jobs might involve, to plan better for himself and build confidence that he can manage better alone.

+1 for greasing dropouts, pedal threads, crank arm bolts and tightening the qr skewers really tight. It's amazing how much the little sounds get amplified. The above sorted mine out.

Palimpsest

It's probably better to ride through the pile of dog poo on the trail rather than suffer the broken wrist caused by the fall trying to avoid it.

The tarmac running out at Leicester Forest services tends to catch some people out.

Possible to travel on a Euro photocard driving license in Europe?

Thanks all, once more, for the sense of perspective and good wishes. It also seems I'm not alone in feeling the way I do.

I'll go along. Eat a burger, smile at the boss and chat with the good friends I have at work. Then, if the weather's any thing like, bugger off on my bike early doors. There're some nice trails on my way home.

I know where my bread's buttered, have no desire to come across as a curmudgeon or to start quoting my contract, but will continue to look somewhere else.

Just got back from a day's environmental education work and feel much better for it.

Kind words and kicks up the arse. I think that's what I came here for!

Thanks all and best wishes to anyone struggling with work (in it or out of it). Or, indeed, debt.

I'll try to be less of a miserable git and continue to build the outdoor/environmental education work.

I'm sure the BBQ'll be OK. Might even enjoy it.

BTW – got my outdoor work off my own bat through developing contacts so that's not a problem. Always found "just chatting" difficult though.

Thanks turnip…., coffeeking & epicyclo for wise words.

Thanks TJ for the official line.

In my industry normal hours are something of an abstract concept.

Thanks junkyard and project for the sense of perspective.

Thanks Yeti.

For your unconventional approach to life coaching!

PS – Never, ever wanted to have to start quoting my contract at work but there's a lot of micro-management happening. Seems that the letter of the law is being applied over the spirit of the law and it feels like I have to fight fire with fire. Hate it.

My attitude to my work has taken something of a dive over the past couple of years. It's sometimes an effort to stay cheerful and productive.

I used to be ambitious and creative. I was energetic, enthusiastic and loyal. Used to ask new colleagues if they were "in for the long haul" as I thought my employer was worth commitment. I would put in lots of out of hours work and enjoy what I was doing. I'm a pretty cheerful person by nature.

Now it's difficult not to feel cynical and it feels completely against my grain to be so. TBH it's making me rather unhappy.

I have begun to get some work in outdoor and environmental education and the days I do this I'm a different person.

I guess the answer is staring me in the face.

@ Southern Yeti – I've no objection to team building. But if that's what it is I expect to know a bit more about it than "we are having a barbecue and you've all got to go". Maybe it's more of a communication thing. It does have the sense of an "offer we can't refuse".

PS – That "nicest possible sense" doesn't come across very well in type.

@ cynic-al – I am in a union and my career is going fine. If not this particular job right now.

@ project – point taken.

No such thing as a free lunch they say :wink:

I'm certain I'll go and enjoy the company of a few of my colleagues.

Just felt the need to vent a bit.

Thanks

@ Southern Yeti

Who the hell are you?

@TJ – salaried so "yes" as I suspected.

Thanks Barry :(

I've been to these events in the past and enjoyed them, helped out with the cooking as well and tidied up after.

I do tend to find "works dos" of this sort a bit odd. I'm not the most gregarious person, but I don't think any of my colleagues would think me a party pooper. At the moment it feels like another demonstration of "because we can" management.

Something in the Guardian a while ago about how a good proportion of meetings are called simply as a power exercise – "look how many people's time I can waste". This feels like one.

The all ride On-one Inbreds strangely!

C'mon, I don't think the "humour" is appropriate here.

I live about 8 miles from Dunblane, and its far from an isolated or economically disadvantaged place.

Thanks for that. Happy to be corrected be people who know.

I take the point about speculation.

It may be notable that West Cumbria is generally quite an isolated and economically disadvantaged area (a characteristic shared with Dunblane, I think).

Lack of traditional "male jobs"?
Independent/self-reliant community spirit/identity?
Abandoned by mainstream politics?

Material in this awful situation?

Thought the "farmers in biathlons" comment was inappropropriately flippant.

Clive Nutton

PS – I've not referred to you as an ars* or anything similar. That sort of personal abuse comes across a bit weak.

I dont find it funny so theres no need to come over all sanctimonious.

So you shouldn't need reminding that this isn't a laughing matter.