Yes, I can see that Graham – personally, I don’t quite buy the offical version as I have written before I am suspicious of many things about it but, equally, still find it hard to believe that elements of American government or whoever, could/would have done this regardless of what other things they could be capable of although I find myself not being able to rule it out completely.

I’ll keep an open mind on it.

There is a quote in Jeremy Whittle’s Bad Blood book he uses at the start of a chapter.

“There are three sides to every story – yours, mine and the truth” 🙂

a better way of explaining it may be to look at the Pan Am 103 example. Dr Jim Swire is quite a high profile campaigner in this country and thinks the truth has not been told. Other families believe justice was served. Both parties will have grounds for thinking the way they do.

Why is this? natural cynicism?, government mis-information? track record of cover-ups/partial cover ups of embarassing/damning evidence which if brought to light would end political careers? Probably a combination of all these things.

konabunny you are completely twisting the comment I made about the Pentagon and the lack of video footage of the explosion there and have mentioned several times about my ignorance thinking a tourist may have captured something but have not answered whether or not you think it is surprising that no tv news teams would be there as it was a good 40 minutes after. You see, everyone has an agenda when it comes to trying to prove a point and will pick and chose what they reply to – classic example above with Graham making up his own selective quotation from my earlier post.

I have seen those WTC7 pictures as they are available on any google search and they show a lot of smoke from the rear combining with the dust from the earlier collapses but not flame.

I’m not trying to convince anyone here and stating that what I say is a fact – i’m expressing my own opinion which is different from yours but I haven’t tried to put anyone down becuse they see things differently than I do.

Ok Graham but I think you haven’t got the point i’ve been trying to make plus you posted a cut and paste of what I wrote to make a quote of of your own.

I’ve read the debunking viewpoints as well as the conspiracy theories and when I read them both make me think that what they are saying sounds feasible. My point is trying to say that it is understandable that you then need to decide which is right and which is wrong and therefore why there are so many people who will question the truth of the official version – myself included.

No, I don’t think the firechief would be complicit in a cover up regardless of whether he lost friends or not.

He gave an eyewitness account saying he expected the building to collapse. I would expect, given what happened earlier in the day – he wasn’t going to risk any more firefighters’ lives.

His eyewitness account, while I don’t dispute it for a second (although you could argue his verbal testimony is as likely to be true as is Leslie Robertson’s re. his assertion that he did indeed carry out the collision calculations he said he did in the 1960s), does not mean I have to accept the excerpt from the NIST report about WHY it fell.

This is matters of opinion. The building is quite clearly not engulfed by fire and did not suffer as severe damage from falling debris as other buildings closer to the twin towers which did not fall down – hence people are naturally suspicious as to why such a structure should give the appearance of being demolished in a controlled manner.

What I (and elfinsafety before in this thread) have been trying to put across all along is that there is so much contradictory opinion on the possible causes of what happened that it is not beyond doubt for a lot of people that the offical version of events is correct.

The people calling foul here do include some of the usual ‘George Bush is a lizard’ folks but there are also a lot of other academics who question the version and who are not the typical ‘tin foil hat’ brigade.

It is the opinion of some posters here that the conspiracy theories are easily debunked. I followed one of the links posted as evidence and the first article was a discrediting of a guy from ae911.

Discrediting someone is not the same as debunking a theory.

Let’s respect each others’ opinions

re. the wtc7 – my sources are pictures that are readily available on line – there is no sign of out of control fire which has burned for 8 hours.

Re. the Lockerbie one – I have read that one – that a top ranking CIA official was on that flight heading for Washington to blow the whistle on drug smuggling by the Assads of Syria with the co-operation of CIA rougue elements to fund black operations. Hence allegations of a helicopter arriving from Machrihanish within an hour of the crash and agents scouring the debris and removing a briefcase which contained incriminating evidence.

I prefer to believe it was Iranian revenge for the shooting down of their passenger airliner in 1986 by US fighter jets and carried out by the PLO.

Yitzhak Rabin is another interesting one

here’s a good one i saw earlier in this thread! wtc7 collapsed after fires burned out of control all day and caused structural failure of the steel.

this, however, is easy to debunk. pictures of wtc7 before and during the collapse show no signs of major fire. no major smoke or flames billowing from the building, glass intact. fires intense enough to melt steel will blow out the glass long before the steel fails.

if fires had burned for 9 hours in that building it would have been like the towering inferno.

But what do i know? I dont know where the pentagon is lol! 😉

I saw someone mention dr david kelly – defo think the man was murdered.

Never heard the robin cook one before.

One i read was german immigrants to usa post ww2 being recruited to the republican party to garner suport in the large ethnic german communities in the us. people who had been active in the nazi party.

A sporting conspiracy is maradona claimed his positive dope test in 1994 was orchestrated by fifa because he had been so critical of them in the past.

1986 and 2010? dunno what you’re on about 😉

cant blame vogts. blame craig brown for not giving any young players a chance?

levein should have been sacked after the first czech game – i could accept doing that 4-6-0 if we were playing spain away and needed a point to qualify but the first or second group game against a team that arent any better than us really?!? the guy is a ****.

toys i cant disagree with your logic but to take it right back, other explanations i have read also seem logical.

junkyard that would be silly. although, it would definitley provide evidence – perhaps not what you expect though.

i’m out.

Yes i’m sure someone will have timed it somewhere and perhaps it is all about visual perception i.e. The use of the term freefall may not be strictly true even though the falling buildings gave that impression. i acknowledge as well that mr robertson is not impartial as it is his design and what could be worse than thinking was there something he could have built into his design a bit better in 1966 that may have saved lives 30+ years later even though any logical person could not blame him in any way but the human mind does not always work in a logical fashion.

Fwiw i do believe that mr robertson carried out the calculations he said he did however of course there is nothing for me to back this up with other than a gut feeling.

Also, i accept that calculations on paper may not reflect what happens in practice when a once in a millenium event happens in real life. notwithstanding, i cant’t accept the identical collapse pattern for both towers.

Common sense dictates that the different strike patterns would have caused different trauma to each structure and therefore i would expect them to react in different ways as a result – but they plunged straight down like no other strucutre in history.

Thanks for the debate however as it is genuinely interesting

Yeah, they should have had a stick on pen in the first half anyway and our first goal was criminal goalkeeping.

Fletchers finish was a touch of class however.

That **** ewencameron on real radio was slagging fletcher senseless in the first half. he then proceeded to set up the first goal and core the second.

Thats the trouble with the media – they think they can say what they like but take the hump when players take issue with them.

Was actually thinking about this the other day and about the disgusting stick the englis gutter press gave bobby robson in the eighties. he got to QF in 86 and lost to the best team in the world by a single hand ball and the greatest goal of all time plus possibly the best goalline clearance by a defender to prevent lineker equalising in the second hhalf then in 90 a semi-final loss to the best team in the world due to a defelected freekick. the poor man was hounded for years.

Bet they’d take him back now?

Levein is a cock though. 4-6-0 against czech republic – national disgrace. thats the sort of formation san marino would put out against spain 🙁

Northwind, i don’t understand what you mean about freefall being faster than gravity? my understanding of freefall is 120mph before air friction stops velocity increasing any further?

Think we are probs going round in circles – toys i read one of your links which refers to engineer mt robertson ‘allegedly’ claiming he carried out jet liner impact scenario calculations.

Part of me thinks why would they have reason to doubt him but the devil’s advocate says that he has vested interest to defend his design.

Peace out.

Saxonrider, unfortunately it seems to be an inbuilt trait of our western politicians.

I do believe gordon brown and john major were/are decent men. Blair and thatcher – 2 peas in a pod.
As for usa, obama and mccain i both think are honest men. God forbid what happens after obama has to stand down.

Mccain will be too old – palin!!??!!

Elfin is cos you is black and smoked the ganja then hid it from the police with your white friend!!! – i saw you admit it on another thread lol! – or am i confusing you with ernie lynch??

To be honest, i have, like everyone else, must have seen the collapse hundreds of times and i have nevr seen a video which shows anything other than virtual freefall of those structures.

Those poor people – i only hope it was bloody quick for them 🙁

Northwind i must admit it does annoy me that folks are labelled conspiracy theorists in such ways.

i grew up in the 80s with a thatcher and reagan hating father lol! But i kinda thought americans were the saviours of the free world. america to me was everything good about the world. as i got older i read more and discovered that the uk and – post ww2 – america were responsible for not only a lot of good in the world but also a depressingly amount of bad.

To study post ww2 american history in terms of foreign policy is eye ipening in the extreme. from italy in 1947/8 through to central and southern america in the 50s through the 80s to south east asia. not to mention abuses domestically via cia black operations which are now undisputed matters of fact i.e. Mk ultra, bioligical and chemical experimentation on unsuspecting civilian populations.

The last 50 years of american expansionism has been fascistic to the extreme. it is logical to think that, no matter how abhorrent a regime, the americans could never attack their own people as it goes against all tenets of freedom, liberty, democracy – the american dream. however, is it not a fair statement to say that subsequent generations move things on in relation to the actions and behaviours of their predecessors? I.e. In the 50s and 60s the right wing of american foreign policy considered how the shooting down – or mock shooting down of an american passenger liner over the gulf of mexico would validate an invasion of cuba in order to protect america and consolidate power abroad i.e. Get rid of comrade castro. perhaps a step too far for even those policy makers. fast forward 40 years. Times change? who knows but viewed in light of the publicised strategies of PNAC could fact be stranger than fiction??

I am a layman indeed no structural engineering background other than one first year module and no fire engineering kowledge other than steel increases in strenght undr intense heat up to apoint where it then starts to soften. my basic understanding of physics is that every action has an equal and opposite reaction and that if you drop something it falls against normal air resistance on earth it accelerates at 10 metres per second until it reaches terminal velocity of around 120 metres per second.

the towers apearr to fall without resistance. one would expect resistance from the unaffected lower floors

fair enough mate. At the end of the day there are good people and evil people and a lot of good people died that day and since as a result.

Thing that struck me when watching a lot of the programmes about it this week is that you can seethe emotion on the faces of the people who lived through it i.e. The fire fighters, police, people on the street, rudy giuliani, etc. But when you see the likes of rumsfeld and cheney – these to me are wicked, unfeeling people. Not a flicker of emotion on them. as for bush – he is just a buffoon. not saying this is any sort of sign of guilt or whatever that others sometimes insinuate – more of an observation about what does and doesnt matter to these people.

As for dubya, if the quote attributed to him is genuine, that he said he watched the first plane hit live and he thought, man, that is one bad pilot – then that just epitomises his buffoonery.

Fair do’s Jeremy.

Toys19, re. the Pentagon and where it is – it was a question I had in my mind as to why there wouldn’t have been more video capture of events there that day, for example from tourist perhaps – not stating anything as a fact. Regardless, I would have expected TV crews to have been either swarming all over the Pentagon, if not rapidly converging there, at the time of the explosion in Washington as this was forty minutes after the second attack in NYC and therefore clear that it was not an accident. This is why I am surprised there is no footage of the Pentagon incident other than the very grainy CCTV camera where you see a flash of something then an explosion. I, personally, find that surprising and therefore suspicious.

Northwind – I agree – my use of the term ‘melt’ is simplistic. To weaken to the point of structural failure is of course the correct terminology. What I find hard to understand, however, is that the steel would need to fail almost instantaneously at virtually every location in order for the building to come down within it’s own footprint – for example as we see in controlled demolitions when strategically place charges are detonated at the same time.

However, in my mind, I would expect the random nature of the impact to have caused failures in some areas and not others. Failures which could perhaps cause catastrophic collapse but not in the manner in which it happened i.e. a partial collapse or a collapse to the side, for example. This is why I have trouble accepting the official version of events. Now, if every source explained why my simple thinking was flawed and therefore wrong then fine. Problem is, there are a lot of far more knowledgeable people than me who have argued this viewpoint in greater scientific detail. (and i’m not talking about the David Icke types out there)

To toys again, it is no good posting links that explain it. The point I am trying to make is that there are other sources which also make conflicting arguments with equal eloquence and professionalism which argue that there must be other contributing factors to why, for example, the buildings collapsed in the way they did.

The internet is full of people who debunk the official version with compelling arguments and evidence, and vice versa. Both make convincing arguments if you take the moral issue away from it. i.e. if you don’t think about the evil behind the act (whoever perpetrated it) then both sides of the fence make compelling arguments.

However, when you factor in how unthinkable it would be for someone to plan and/or allow such attacks to take place on their fellow citizens with their knowledge then, I agree, it almost does become too hard to accept as it goes beyond almost* anything we have seen in human history in terms of man’s inhumanity to man.

*while almost being beyond anything evil history has recorded, it is not as bad as the worst examples we know about i.e. the Holocaust and the Gulags, etc. People are capable of wicked deeds in the pursuit of power and money. In answer to your sarcasm, I don’t find any of this funny at all.

I think there is more to those events than the official story. Let’s agree to disagree.

the nyc planes that hit the towers were 767s which are a similar size to 707s

not that it really matters as I won’t change your opinions and you won’t change mine

you are quoting a small part of what I wrote to make it look like I tried to make an authoritative statement when I did not do that.

This is a typical way of trying to discredit someone’s opinion.

Yes, I am unfamiliar with the location of the Pentagon,other than it is in Washington DC. Obviously makes me a nutter lol!

Would you not think there may have been some more footage of the crash in Washington?

What about what I wrote about NYC? you just picked up on the fact I don’t know the precise location of the pentagon to dismiss me as a crank!

The WTC was designed to withstand the impact of a similar sized plane to those which hit them. Fully laden with fuel. The planes that did hit them were not – so I have read – fully laden as they were on shorter domestic journeys. I have read this from what appear to be genuine and professional sources on line. I accept that these sources may not be accurate, however, assuming they are, then the towers were designed to survive the impact. Of course, it could be possible the design calculations were flawed – devil’s advocate here – and there are equally professional and expert appearing resources which claim the towers were not designed to withstand the impact. Someone is right and someone is wrong.

However, a catastrophic failure of the steel leading to collapse doesn’t really explain to a layman (i.e. me!) why all the concrete in the building turned to dust.

Of course, we are used to seeing video of controlled demolition of no more than 20 or so storeys in this country of buildings which have been stripped bare over weeks or even months so I appreciate a 110 storey tower falling which has not been prepared for demolition may not display the same characteristics we are used to seeing in terms of the resulting rubble, etc. however it looks suspicious to so many people IMHO because they both fall in such a regular and virtually identical way to each other.

The planes hit at different heights, different angles, and at different points on the building and yet the structures both proceeded to fall down in almost the exact same way. The fires would have been decreasing in intensity as they spread because all the fuel would have been burnt off. If they burned at over 700 or 800 degrees C or whatever was required to melt the steel then how come people one or two floors above could be seen waving for help right up until the collapses? If the fires were that intense as we are lead to believe then they would have spread rapidly and you would have seen flames licking out the building. The link I posted shows examples of other far more severe high rise fires and the entire buildings are engulfed within minutes.

Watching newsreel footage of war zones from WWII to the present day, you can see how buildings are destroyed by high speed impacts from missiles and subsequent fires – there is always some part of the building left behind due to irregular collapse i.e. the collapse emanates from the impact zone. The footage you can see on you tube makes it look like the twin towers collapses started much higher above the impact areas.

I also find it unusual that there is such limited footage of the strike at the Pentagon. Wouldn’t that area of the city be full of people and tourists at that time of day? Granted, not quite a lower Manhattan but I would have expected someone to have captured footage of a jet approaching the area on a collision course. And that’s before you get into the pilot skill involved in being able to hit that building where it was alleged.

Notwithstanding all of the above – four planes hi-jacked by stanley knife wielding nutters? come on!!! bet the PLO wish they’d come up with that one in the 70s.

But what do I know? If you think it is unbelievable that Americans would be complicit in the act of murder of their own citizens then you need to do some digging – chemical and biological warfare experiments have been conducted on numerous occasions post WWII on whole towns.

Incidentally, those of you getting ripped into the guy for not swallowing the official line – what do you think about the follow-up Anthrax attacks?

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html#conclusion

cheers, that setup is indeed a touch, ‘face-only-a-mother-could-love’!! but who cares!

What brake levers are you using?

This is depressing – I think I may send a letter to that boy and his wife in Largs!

our company accountant has a lot of Asian clients and he says not a single one of them has a pension scheme. They don’t trust them.

They invest in other ways such as property.

I think this is the best idea.

Overpay your mortgage – at least you know where it’s going. Then, when you pay off early – either try to invest in a smaller property for retiral or holiday type flat or put the mortgage money away into as high an interest account as you can.

Or emigrate to Eastern Europe – if you’re going to be poor, might as well do it somewhere where everyone else is the same and beer is cheap 😉

I’ll make sure i’ve no savings and will have long-since signed my house over to my kids. That way i’ll have no assets and the government can pay my keep.

Seems fair to me.

seriously? the worst are away? In some isolated pockets in Glasgow you still see some of the horrendous inter-war housing but most has been completely modernised or demolished.

I was surprised by the scale of the Granton and Pilton estate. The tenements look ten times worse than anything in Wester Hails or Muirhouse. They have tried to tart them up by painting the masonry and, in some cases, overrendering but that was the first time i’ve ventured into that area and it was a genuine shock that there were still so many blocks like that in occupation.

That should be a national scandal – especially with the obscene cost of property just two miles away in the new town – not to mention the trams, the parliament and the money ploughed into the waterfront. 😡

I was in Granton and Pilton yesterday for business (not pleasure!)

What a disgrace – those tenements make HMP Barlinnie look like a doll’s house

stephanie broadchest? really?

I have missed that one! The movie has now gone up in my estimation 🙂

I know Bond has gone all badass with Daniel Craig but give me Roger Moore vs. Richard Kiel any day of the week 😉

“Greg was right…..”

“…and so was Bully”

Never forget – the ultimate victory if things get almost unberable is choosing to live.

Bring back proper bond girls like dr holly goodhead or plenty o’toole. Not to mention pussy galore.

Bond going all touchy feely at the end of casion royale is a major disappointment.

Ah, good ole roger moore…..

nice product placement for sony ericsson – hmmm, let me check my sat nv to find the ocean club even though i can see it right in front of me and i am a spy and should know where im going anyway.

what do you mean its not real?!? lol

for a proper film you wan the transporter series!

yup – nowt to touch it at that price

sounds to me that you are suffering from severe anxiety which has then led on to your feelings of depression.

Too many stressful life events close together can cause a stress overload – there is a tipping point for everyone. Your symptoms don’t materialise overnight so, unfortunately, they don’t go away overnight either. HOWEVER! with understanding of your situation and what has caused it you can break out of the rut you are in and slowly recover.

You arrive at a point, ever so slowly – almost so slowly over a period of weeks or maybe months that you don’t even notice it happening – where finally your body can’t take anymore.

You need a rest but instead of resting you add to the stress by constantly focussing your thoughts onto how bad you feel and why you feel the way you do and that you’ll never feel good again and that other people recover but I won’t.

This, in my opinion, is simply anxiety. The dark thoughts are all part of it. The mind plays tricks on you. It is not the thoughts that are causing you a problem – it is your biological reaction to them i.e. panic/fear therefore further feeding the cycle of anxiety and keeping you from breaking the cycle and allowing yourself to recover. Everyone has bizarre or strange thoughts from time to time however because you are emotionally and physically tired, you can’t shrug them off the way everyone else does – you start to think they must be true or that you will, god forbid, act out on what you are thinking. You won’t. The fact it upsets you means it is something you know you would never do. People in this state have been known to hide all the knives in their house because they are terrified they will get up in the night and murder their family. To those who haven’t suffered – it may sound so ridiculous as to be funny however I can assure you it is not – it is hell. However, it can all be explained away as an over-tired mind playing tricks on you.

In my experience of NHS mental health care – none of the above was explained to me – I found it from a surprising source and it was my eureka moment where everything clicked into place and I was able to move forwards after 3 years of constantly fighting the way I was feeling.

Do not fear the dark thoughts – bad as they may be – you will be extremely surprised how common this symptom is – but because it is so horrible people do not want to talk about it for fear of the fear it may instill in other people who do not understand what you are going through. I can sympathise with you – I would not wish how this feels on my worst enemy, seriously. There will come a time when you can look back and laugh at how something so ridiculous scared you so much.

With the depression, you may feel that a minute lasts an hour and you count the hours until bedtime as sleep brings the only brief respite until you awake at 3 or 4am, wide-eyed and dreading the day ahead. Those early hours can be the lonliest of all. You are not alone – as bad and as isolated as it feels – what you are going through is very, very common and it is also very, very common for you to be able to make a complete recovery and get your life back.

There are some things you can try which helped me: –

A herbal remedy called Valerina. It is available online or from Boots – it is based on Valerian which is a plant. It took the edge right off the worst anxiety and depression for me when I was struggling at times. It can allow you a bit of breathing space in the day to gather yourself and feel what it is like to be relaxed again. Once you get the feeling, remind yourself that this is what normal feels like and that it will come back.

Don’t be depressed when you feel down after feeling good for a while – it happens and you move onwards and upwards.

Do not google depression meds side effects – they will only scare you. Sure, there are horror stories out there but think of all the millions of people getting on with their lives who have been helped with medication.

Try not to wallow in self-pity – hard as it can seem at times – try and get out of bed in the daytime – although sometimes a ‘duvet-day’ can help! Get out on the bike – you may not enjoy it now but, given time – you will enjoy it again. Tell yourself that I am going to come back here in the future and remember how bad I felt today but that you’ll take pride in forcing yourself to get on and do it.

Don’t go daft with alcohol. Sure, a beer or two now and again is fine, but don’t add to your problems by going on a bender.

Try and eat even if you struggle. Even a tin of soup if you have completely lost your appetite or some tuna mayo.

Plenty of water

Google Dr Claire Weekes – best literature I ever read on the subject.

Don’t cut yourself off from people. Equally, don’t bang on about how bad you feel to everyone. A bit like the biking comment above – it may not be enjoyable at first but you’ll get back into the old way of life soon enough.

Don’t trawl the internet searching for a magic bullet – everything takes time, sadly you won’t feel instantly better in a day but maybe it’ll take a couple of weeks or so but you’ll feel it coming back in small steps.

Take care

Treasure Island Dizzy for the Atari ST – class!

You could walk the West Highland Way from Milngavie to Dumgoyne – walk up the hill then visit the distillery at the bottom on the way back. For food if you do that then the cafe at Mugdock Park (on the route) is excellent.

Milngavie is only 5 or 6 miles out of Glasgow and the walk starts virtually at the train station. Trains to Milngavie leave from Glasgow Queen Street station.

The Burrell Collection in Pollok Park on the South Side is well worth a visit. Free entry (donations welcome) and a really nice cafe’ within it.

Ben Ledi is right on the edge of Callander. Not quite a munro but a popular walk. Ben Vorlich and Stuc a Chroin to the East of Callander are Munros. You can also walk to Comrie from Callander through the glens of the above two mountains