May I mention you last point Trekster regarding other people experiencing implementation of poorer conditions, etc.?

I have always struggled to understand this point of view. Particularly with the example of the teachers. I recall several threads on STW in the past when teachers were striking – or threatening to strike – over pay and conditions (particularly pensions) and being amazed at the number of people who told them to “suck it up because everyone else is getting shafted too”

What happens in two or three years if conditions worsen again for you? If your daughter was then forced to accept further reduced conditions would you tell her tough luck because it happened to me too?

Honestly depressed by this. We are just racing each other to the bottom of the food chain instead of supporting people who are fighting – not out of greed – but to preserve already hard-won conditions of employment that had previously been agreed to.

Whether people at grangemouth earn 55k or not is irrelevant to what anyone else earns. They were offered these terms and accepted them. Why shouldn’t they fight to preserve them? Not saying that being 100% inflexible is the answer – times change and companies do to – but to strip it down to the basic premise that “i’ve had the shaft so i’ve no sympathy for anyone else” really don’t understand i’m afraid 😕

further to Northwind’s last post, they (ineos) have employed Mediazoo to brief their management and spin their press releases. I’ve read some pretty vile criticism of Pat Rafferty regarding his eloquence – or lack of – (as well as his religious beliefs) but if you look at Mediazoo’s website you’ll see they boast of putting spin on situations such as these, as well as helping clients deflect criticism on subjects such as workplace fatalities and child labour and yet the union is demonised?? Strange times in which we live

thisisnotaspoon – not my logic. I was putting over the union’s stance on it.

If it’s profitable why close it? Perhaps they can make more money elsewhere and they don’t like a workforce that stands up for itself? I don’t know.

Diageo closed the Johnnie Walker plant in Kilmarnock and that was making a profit because they could make even more by ‘rationalising’ operations

regarding the redundancies – I don’t understand how that can happen? If Ineos is the parent company of ineos grangemouth or whatever it’s called then how can they absolve themselves of responsibility to pay redundancy to the workforce if they decide, for commerical reasons, to shut one of their plants?

ok i’m not an accountant but the point is if – as Unite claims – the plant operated at a profit of around 30 million in 2011 and 2012 then how can it go to losing 10 million a month now as a result of workforce conditions? the conditions haven’t changed since that period (as far as I can gather).

The issue with the write-off is not whether it is procedurally correct or not – more to do with the fact that it has been claimed by the other party that this has been done to deliberatley paint a bleak picture as to the viability of the plant i.e. to sow the seed for closing the plant down not, I guess, because they are losing money but because 30million a year isn’t enough for them

gonefishin beat me too it

Ordinarily perhaps i’d agree with you Sancho but I think it would depend on the reasons behind the request and the scale of the problem. In other words the alleged loss making at Grangemouth is being laid at the door of the workers because they are being paid too much and their pension conditions are too expensive. The workers are disputing this and are standing up for themselves asking for justification of this claim as they claim the operation is profitable and so why should they be forced to accept lesser conditions with the threat that if they don’t their jobs will be lost.

In this context I don’t think it is an unreasonable request for Unite to have made.

of course, you are correct about that, Ninfan.

I should have written that it SHOULD not be theirs to do with as they please when they use complex accountancy procedures to show a loss – or minimal profit – when the company is doing rather better and to avoid paying tax or to use it as a tool to hammer a workforce into accepting lesser conditions.

Should be a nationalised industry in my opinion, run for national benefit.

lostneverfound. Can I ask why you think it is an example of union industry destruction?

btw, nor do I see it as management incompetence. I think they have been extremely cunning.

i disagree. It’s not theirs to do what they please with. Especially if they have been manipulating accounts to show a money-making enterprise is running at a loss.

We’ll never know as they refused to allow an external audit of the accounts to see if the claims were justified.

The Union claims the company wrote off the value of that plant to show a loss and that, actually, the plant operated at substantial profit in 2011 and 2012.

well footflaps you can perhaps excuse my cynicism when you point the finger a a trade union whilst all the evidence in the public domain would suggest closure was a foregone conclusion.

Scapegoat Stevie Deans (already exonerated by Labour and Police Scotland for having done nothing wrong in the by-election candidate selection process) – force workforce to take industrial action to defend colleague who has done nothing wrong (see above) – blame workforce for putting fuel supplies in jeopardy – pre-empt strike by closing down plant – keep plant shut despite union cancelling strike – make union offer it knows it can never accept – refuse to negotiate – shut plant.

Yup, bloody unions right enough

you seem to be ignoring the various points many other people have made which points to this decision having already been made regardless.

I’ll go out on a limb and suggest you think teachers are greedy for wanting to preserve their pensions and that they get too many holidays?

Union guarantees no strike action

Asks for clarity of published accounts

States willingness to discuss rescue plan to keep plant open

Ineos is not a charity but an employer has an obligation to look after the people who make it money. In this case the company claims large losses are being incurred through current wage structure. If the plant needs 300 million in investment then perhaps some of the claimed losses could be attributable to this lack of investment?

From what I can see the Union has been open in stating it’s committment to dialogue. Of course, none of us know what goes on behind closed doors but it seems that the company offered a take it or leave it settlement to the workers.

What would the workers do in two or three years if faced with a similar situation?

What footflaps proposes is just a race to the bottom for everyone. I could understand where you are coming from if the Union had stated no intention to compromise or discuss but they haven’t done that.

only one precedent that sets footflaps and it isn’t a good one for any employee anywhere. What is the point of having a union if employers should be allowed carte blanche to hit employees with ‘take it or leave it’ ultimatums?

I listened to Pat Rafferty on BBC4 this morning. He claimed the union were willing to negotiate. It seems clear the company was not.

You see this as the fault of the Union whereas as see it as the fault of the employer

can’t understand people blaming the union here? It is the Union’s job to defend it’s members. The action taken today shows that the company had no intention of negotiating any sort of deal

so a liquidator has already been appointed and a buyer already being sought?

Seems like the plans were always in place and the industrial dispute is a smokescreen

oh, re. the Kanadias. I’d suggest one size more than you’d normally wear. I am a size 8 in all shoes/trainers but a 9 in both my pairs of adidas (and a half size extra in New Balance if that is of any help)

I have put a few hundred miles on a pair of adidas kanadia tr4. They have been replaced by the tr5 now but you can get them for under 40 quid online in several outlets.

If you are freakishly odd sized then you may pick up a pair of tr4s for under 30 quid.

They look very clumpy but they are actually pretty light and they are comfortable (for me) a trail shoe but I use them for jogging on paths and roads too and the grip is fine

Sweatshop have some really good clearance deals at the minute – just so happens I was looking on there this morning.

the MT101’s fit like slippers. I also liked the NB 749 trail shoe which has a less aggressive tread than the 101 but that is discontinued also. Depending on your size, sport direct were selling MT110 (the replacement for the 101) for 25 quid. Had a size 8 in stock but not 8.5 unfortunately or i’d have gone for them. They’ve reduced the heel toe differential from 10mm in the 101 to 4mm which is comparable with the minimus 10 and 20 but with more cushioning and the upper looks a bit sturdier.

Perhaps the 10mm is what causes ankle soreness in 101 users when running offroad rather than a lack of cushioning??

Cheviot sizing is spot on for me. I am an 8 in shoes. Needed an 8.5 in New Balance and a 9 in Kanadias. More Mile Cheviot 8 is a generous fit even with thick socks on.

I am impressed with them for 30 quid. Got free socks and a long sleeve micro fleece as well for that price.

The online pics make them look very clumpy but they are surprisingly light. The tread on them stick like shit to a blanket

thanks ed. and thanks also for the kind wishes. we are doing good matey. Daughter is 10 on Sunday – can’t believe the years have gone past so quickly 🙂

All the best

I feel like crying for you pal. I hardly post on here but lost my partner suddenly last year to cancer and wrote about it like you have done about the wee man and I got tremendous moral support from complete strangers.

Thoughts with you all. This is awful xxxxxxxxxxxxxx be strong

bloody hell mate that’s awful. The law was changed in Scotland in 2006 to prevent that happening up here i.e. if a property wasn’t in joint names then if, for example, the house was in my partner’s name it would have gone to her parents if we had no children. I understand that can’t happen now.

I truly feel for you.

My partner didn’t even get to see an Oncologist before she died. Diagnosed on Thursday, dead on Tuesday tea-time. Oncologist not available until Wednesday as shared between hospitals. (not that it would have made a difference to the outcome, you understand, but it’s not really the point – on the Thursday my partner didn’t look anywhere near close to death and the speed of her decline took everyone by surprise but maybe if her name was Windsor and she’d had a dicky tummy instead of terminal cancer she’d have been prioritised)

Oh, and trail hunter, i’m sorry for your loss. I know exactly how it feels. Not much more I can say but as a cautionary word to anyone else co-habiting – i’d strongly advise to get your relationship formalised, especially if you have children.

Myself and my partner were together 12 years – lived together 11 and had two kids. Doesn’t count for anything in the eyes of the government (apart from when they assess what child benefit you are entitled to, then you get less because both incomes are taken into account).

My children will not get a penny in bereavement support even though we have lost one income. I appealed but it was not upheld.

I was subjected to a 30 minute telephone interview from some woman at the DWP in Dover just after I returned to work. My verbal responses were then sent to me to verify and return. I also send a dozen letters from colleagues, neighbours and members of the school board attesting to the fact they assumed we were both married (which most people thought we were). My verbal responses were sent to a lawyer at the Scottish Office who then sent me back – after approx. 8 weeks – a very detailed response quoting various case law and taking excerpts from my ‘interview’ responses (out of context in my opinion) to tell me I wasn’t entitled to anything and allowing me something ridiculous like 2 weeks to make a second appeal.

As a matter of information, myself and my partner both worked full-time throughout our relationship and did not claim any benefits ever other than child tax benefit.

2012 sure was a great year to be British…

Thanks all.

Worth pointing out I didn’t specifically mention compensation but i’m assuming that the NHS Authority wouldn’t admit to any failing, hence discussing legal action.

I think a face to face meeting would be good. I have already been to Parliament regarding what I thought was a nationwide problem. Seems from the feedback i’ve had it’s not however out of 14 NHS Authorities in Scotland that the Public Petitions Committee of the Scottish Parliament wrote to, only 4 responded so who knows what happens in the other 10.

Needless to say, our own Authority was not one of the four that responded.

If they are not prepared to enter into dialogue with the government then it doesn’t bode well for a pleb like me

in answer to the point made about the traffic around glasgow, edinburgh and aberdeen being so bad when more people than the whole of the scottish population commute into London: –

The road network is crap. It’s improved around Glasgow in the last 10 years but Edinburgh is a nightmare and so is Aberdeen. There is no proper way for through traffic to by-pass Aberdeen plus the fact both are coastal means there aren’t as many ways in.

Also, London is very big so it’s all relative to the number of people trying to cram into a smaller space 😉

I didn’t think anyone would remember the previous threads as they were from some time ago and, at that time, I didn’t know what I know now about the level of care given to patients in the same situation elsewhere in the country.

Thanks for the pointers everyone.

Thank you.

Get yourself along to an Auchinleck Talbot.vs. Cumnock junior.football match. P.s. Juniors ain’t kids up here in case you don’t know. Serious stuff 🙂

The Thick Of It 🙂

Good shout for Our Friends In The North – great soundtrack to it as well.

Just to resurrect this old thread and give you an update.

I went with my partner’s Dad to the Scottish Parliament yesterday to give evidence to the Public Petitions Committee after I started a petition and it was lodged with around 900 online signatures. We also got around 3000 more signatures the old-fashioned way.

I was a bit under-prepared however we got the message across and the petitions committee agreed unanimously to take up the petition and move it forward, writing to all Health Boards, the BMA and the Melanoma Society for their initial responses. I will then get the opportunity to respond to their responses in around 8 weeks time.

The link below shows a recording of proceedings. Coincidentally, the first petitioners on the day were the Editor and Health Correspondent of the Glasgow Evening Times newspaper who had lodged a petition regarding organ donation registration.

My presentation comes in around 45 minutes on the link below.

Thanks again for the advice and support from three months ago. The papers bonjye linked to have been particularly helpful

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/newsandmediacentre/41430.aspx

Best description I heard of Patna is that it’s “the Arsehole of Ayrshire – and Dalmellington is ten miles up it”

fnarr fnarr

some fascinating recollections and stories in this thread.

also fascinating is how determined forum posters can be to have the last word on a subject

Hotel Rwanda and Survivor both had a real sense of menace and tension throughout.

cheers!

Forgot how good he is. Just what I need right now. Some beautiful music and lyrics. Up there with Mark Knopfler – maybe not as good a musician but think he edges it as a lyricist

thanks for starting this topic Darrell 🙂

thanks matey. equally, you’ve probably no idea how much comments like yours help not just me but the rest of the family as i’m relaying all this to Sharon’s dad as well.

Take care.

Thank you to everyone not only forhe sincerity ine replies but also bwaarp and bonjye for the layman’s explanations of some of this scientific.information. I am very grateful.

Pathology say.melanoma.

It did not.look like any melanoma i.can see on google images.
She did not have a.mole where it.formed
when i googles.scc on friday i.sent the.closest.pic to the infections consultant who treated her and hisemail repky was.”wow! The similarities are incredible. It took me a.few.moments to realisethat was.not sharon’sear i was looking at”.