outofbreath – is this a sick joke?

Of course Junkyard – you are quite correct. My mistake.

My views are clear above however in the interests of balance it should be remembered that after two years of taking evidence and three weeks of deliberation there were still 2 members of the jury that did not agree that there was no contributing element from fans.

I think I would disagree with you on that one matey. I think a lot of people did a lot of soul searching after Hillsborough. The national game has changed beyond recognition since it happened.

Sorry Chipkorea, just to reply to your last message. I am of the same opinion in that I think another crushing incident was a disaster waiting to happen at many large grounds around the country. Was it inevitable? I don’t think so but I do think it was extremely possible although perhaps not the scale of Hillsborough.

However, the fact that so many people think it was so likely – or even inevitable – surely substantiates the decision the enquiry made that the fans at Hillsborough were not to blame?

Imagine if the Captain on the Herald of Free Enterprise had said it was boozed up passengers that opened the bow doors on the ferry and then was found to have lied? The guy would be hunted for the rest of his life.

How come Duckenfield gets away with doing the same thing? As far as I am aware he is still receiving his pension, is he not?

I think heart warming is the wrong choice of words but I get what you are trying to say.

However, there would have been thousands of pissed up fans at matches up and down the country week in week out, just as there would have been ‘bunker inners’ or people in the wrong end, or just plain old arseholes who would have went out that day with the intention of having a rumble with opposing fans.

The facts are – none of the above were found to be contributing factors. My own thoughts are that this is because these elements were perfectly commonplace at all football matches – hence, not a contributing factor to the tragedy.

Again, just my own view – I am really finding it hard to see how so many people are struggling to get to grips with the idea that what caused a perfectly normal scenario to go so bad was a sequence of horrific human errors which were not the fault of the supporters.

Chipkorea, these sorts of scenarios you describe i.e. fans at the wrong end, etc. would have been happening week in week out at every big match.

To the people asking about ticketless fans and those pushing to get in. There would have been ticketless fans and others pushing to get in at every big match so ask yourself why hundreds weren’t being killed every week.

It is inconceivable to think there weren’t fans that day trying to bunk in as was their way. That’s neither here nor there. It was fans – the vast majority of whom should have been there and were entitled to be there – that were directed into the central pens. Whether or not there were a few dozen or a few hundred that may not have had tickets is irrelevant. The disaster was still going to happen because of the decisions made on the day by the police. The HSE estimated the number in the Leppings Lane end was just under official capacity yet 96 people died. So where were all the thousands of ticketless fans then if the terracing wasn’t at capacity?? They weren’t there.

I also believed the lies at the time, for which I feel slightly ashamed.

Needed at least 80% of the country to be behind it. 55-45 the other way would have ended up with civil unrest in my view.

Anyway, as we are talking economic models – would one of the know-it-all economists on here who are roundly ridiculing the SNP’s plans for independence care to post up the statistics of the UK national debt?

och come on ernie! Even by your selective quoting standards that’s a bit naff – quoting me entirely but omitting the wink which shows my comment was made in jest

No Ernie, I was agreeing with you. Johann Lamont was trying to say just because we are Scots doesn’t make us genetically programmed to make better decisions. It came out a bit wrong but anyone watching the debate must have clearly known what she was trying to say.

Hustler, the guy’s a politician – if you don’t like his dishonesty you must have been apoplectic when Alistair Darling tried to deny the NHS was being privatised in England 😉

Anyway, if it does go tits up then it’s up to us – no more blaming Westminster. I’d be devastated if it did but I am confident it won’t.

Don’t you all hate the Scots? 😉

You are of course correct Ernie. Just like when Johann Lamont made her famous remark about Scots not being genetically programmed to make decisions. As much as I think she is as much use as a chocolate fireguard, it was clear what she was trying to say, she just got mixed up in the heat of a shouting match with Nicola Sturgeon.

However, in the interests of balance, I must correct you on what you say about the SNP saying that only one party needs to be in agreement to have a currency union. As you know, they have not said this either, just as much as Mr Darling’s comment was framed entirely differently to how it is being interpreted.

Konabunny the way I’d interpreted them (EDP) was that they were attracting people for whom the BNP and UKIP were too extreme.

Regardless, it’s not necessarily that I’m advocating them, more like I perceived them to be putting a voice to what a lot of people in England feel but not as abhorrent as the far right parties which is what England needs.

We in Scotland have SNP, the Welsh had Plaid Cymru, in Northern Ireland there is Sinn Fein or the Democrats. I’m not saying that any minority party is necessarily better than the mainstream but look at how the SNP and Plaid Cymru have developed in recent years from their beginnings as what many perceived to be a ‘lunatic fringe’ into something that a lot of people feel they can support.

Probably not putting over very well what I am trying to say

Some people I know have made their choice based on the football team they support.

I like to think I’m a bit more thoughtful than that.

So part of my decision is based on the fact that anything which unites the Conservative Party, UKIP, BNP, Scottish Defence League and The Orange Order can’t be good.

Really? Do you understand it? Does anyone?

When you have people who have devoted their lives to the study of economies and currency disagreeing on how things should work how do you expect the average layperson to understand it?

Should people not vote on the in/out EU referendum because they don’t understand the details of how it all works?

But I do think Scottish Labour are playing a dangerous game. You very rarely see a Scottish Conservative or Liberal Democrat on TV up here following one of these debates trying to debunk the Yes message.

It is almost always a Scottish Labour party member or activist. Cons and Lib Dems are playing this clever and keeping out the way and letting Labour do the ‘dirty work’, so to speak.

From my perspective – as an assured Yes voter – the failure here is that UK parties do not want to enter into negotiations at all.

Why would they? They don’t want to make independence look attractive if they can avoid doing so.

They are playing poker.

I’m a Green voter but am gaining a lot of respect for Salmond and the SNP leadership for their resolution in the face of a relentless and co-ordinated attack by the other UK political parties.

All you economic experts who know how to type ‘Google’ into your computer.

Whether you agree with a currency union is not the point.

The point is whether or not people prefer a new system of governance.

The rest will follow. If UK politics offered a positive alternative to the current right-moving trend then Scottish Independence would be dead in the water.

It’s the failure of the current political system which has awakened something in a lot of people who think there is a real prospect of an alternative way.

It might fail and it might succeed. Only time will tell. However, is the current situation in the UK really so successful? I think it has already failed.

I accept I am biased as I am 100% Yes voter but we need to be honest with ourselves.

I hope the English Democrats can capitalize on the disillusionment in England and shake things up a bit.

I see we are all separatists now. It is being increasingly used by pro-Union supporters in the mainstream media. Interesting how this shift has come about in recent weeks.

Previously you would read or hear about ‘the Yes camp’ or ‘pro-independence supporters’.

Now it is ‘the separatists’.

We see the situation in Eastern Ukraine where ‘separatists’ have been seen to have caused hundreds of deaths and the situation could easily escalate into something drastically worse.

Now we have the ‘Scottish Separatists’ or ‘Nationalist Few’ who are causing the pro-Union supporters to be fearful of speaking out.

The Daily Record story linked to above is also not totally unexpected. In situations such as these, we must ask “who benefits from these actions?”

Certainly not the ‘separatists’. My only surprise is it has taken so long for a story like this to appear. There will be more in the next three months also.

Kryton – yes I was agreeing with you

Kryton-maybe not the biggest crime but perhaps one worthy of equal punishment?

But yes I agree pretty much 100% with what you and Mrs Toast have said

clever. So a fellow party MP turns up with information about child sex abuse involving people likely known to Mr Brittan but he doesn’t actually read the details, simply passes it off to someone else?

One must suspect Brittan himself was not implicated however if what he says is true, and he didn’t look at the papers, then for all he knew he could have been passing them to someone implicated who would clearly not take the matter any further which would be incompetence on a grand scale.

However, surely it is inconceivable that the names in the dossier would not be discussed at that meeting so – rather than being merely incompetent it’s much more sinister and he (Brittan) has protected reputations and is therefore complicit in the perpetration of these crimes. Who knows how many kids have been abused as a result of the failure to act on the information presented?

Regardless, i’m sure it will be a long time before we see Mr Brittan stand before an enquiry and answer for his actions 🙁

Yes Ernie but he’s basically been accused by some people of saying that child abuse is ok.

I wasn’t around in the 70’s but can you imagine PIE being tolerated nowadays?

I think there is merit in the argument he was trying to make.

and for those dismissing jivehoneyjive as a conspiracy crank.

There are now over 100 MPs supporting a call for an enquiry (on the scale of that carried out into Hillsborough) into organised child abuse in Britain with allegations that some of those perpetrators are involved in the so-called ‘higher echelons’ of British society.

David Cameron’s opening response to Tom Watson MP’s question was that this was a ‘difficult and complex matter’ or words to that effect.

Really? what’s difficult about wanting to bring child rapists to justice?

to clarify – before I am subjected to the selective quoting barrage – tolerated more widely or perhaps seen as an unpleasantness that wasn’t spoken about by society.

I work with a couple of guys in their 60’s and they worked in local authority in the early 70’s. The stories they tell of some of the really quite outrageous behaviour by some of their older colleagues back then – well, it’s remarkable and wouldn’t be allowed these days and rightly so

I am dismayed how Edukator has been basically accused of saying child abuse is acceptable.

It is perfectly clear the point he was trying to make.

The example of the headteacher in the 1960’s being a case in point.

It is perfectly clear he did not say that behaviour was acceptable but that it was tolerated i.e hush hush swept under the carpet, etc.

The example of his cycle club is also clear. The older members knew or suspected what was going on but turned a blind eye. This is tolerating it.

If you ask me it is not he who is trolling this thread.

However, I do strongly disagree with his views about a custodial sentence for rolf harris. I think it would be a travesty of justice were he not sentenced to time in prison.

Heineken – job done. Peroni when it’s someone else’s round

Yeah probably a bit of intolerance of others’ opinion, a hefty degree of sarcasm and a bit of a moral superiority complex, hence why i’m persisting in wasting time replying to someone with exactly the same traits

Shalom

Thanks Northwind. I mulled it over and should probably poke myself in the eye for bothering to respond bit here we go.

There are those who are dead cert yes and those who are dead cert no. If we believe the Polls the gap is closing therefore it will be the undecideds who swing the vote.

Of this group there are those who fear change and there are those who I label self-loathers who think we are so inadequate we rely on those inhabitants of The House of Commons to keep us on an even keel. There is no mention of those who just think the Union is a good thing as common sense dictates they will be in the minds made up No category.

These people who like the idea of independence but think Scots are inadequate I refer to as self loathers. These folks seem to predominantly be of a Scottish Labour persuasion.

Not sure how we got onto zionism? Oh, aye – it was selective quoting.

I spoke to someone this week who said she “liked the idea of independence” but “didn’t have faith in Scots to run our country”.

“What happens to my driving licence and passport?”

“How much does that cost me if I need to change them?”

“I don’t trust him to run the country”

This lady is a very outgoing and seemingly self-confident person who has built up her own successful small business over the past 8 years and this makes me find her outlook all the more depressing.

Ultimately, Scotland will get what it deserves. I really fear for a No vote.

All the gnashing of teeth is just distraction. The question should be very simple. Should the country govern itself or not?

I’m sure it will be a No. The combination of those fearful of change, those self-loathing Scots who think we are incapable, and the combination of the mass media being generally against it will, I think, be too much to overcome.

Example, my own mother refuses to vote Yes because “Salmond is a wee Hitler” and “he’ll let the Asians take over”.

You can’t reason with that mindset.

It’s her money and she’s entitled to her opinion.

Maybe the money could be used to bus in some Scottish Labour stooges to the public debates that BT constantly refuse to attend.

I’m with you Konabunny

saltire-waving mel gibson wannabees.

You just let the mask slip Ernie.

I noticed I keep saying “ernie” in all my replies to you, er.. Ernie lol

It reads a bit patronising but I wasn’t meaning it to in case you took it that way.

Correct me if i’m wrong but is there not a perception in England that the regions (of England) are neglected at the expense of the South and South East of the Country?

I have read that London subsidizes the country and i’ve also read that the rest of the country subsidizes London so I don’t know which is true.

Wasn’t there talk of regional assemblies in England too? Yorkshire and Cornwall/S.W. spring to mind

Ok your inverted commas are intended for use in a derogatory manner – I get it and I do have a little bit of understanding of other countries in the EU – some of them are small too, just like Scotland, and they aren’t sending boatloads of refugees to the South of England.

I’ve already said when trying to discuss this that it’s independence in name only. It’s really Devo Max that is on offer as far as i’m concerned and voting Yes is the only way to get it.

We vote Yes and we try to make the country fairer, I hope