aracer – Member
What did Wilson or Callaghan actually do to sort out the mess of the 3 day week then? Whatever it was they obviously acted quickly, as it ended 4 days after Wilson moved into no 10.

with respect, I never said they did, what I said in response to the resolution being attributed to Thatcher was that by that logic, it should be attributed to Wilson/Callaghan who actually were the government in after Heaths tory government, which in fact presided over the 3 day week.

Not the same thing, however, if pushed I would say that the Unions had a right old pop at Heath, but it wasn’t then relevant to continue with that strategy with a Labour government in power. The Wilson Government, if you can call it that in fact had very little power and didn’t achieve much, as some very minor parties held the balance of power. Accordingly not much happened until Callaghan come to power.

mcboo – Member
I really don’t want a job for life. Especially not as a coal miner.

I wouldn’t be a hundred miles behind you in that, but then I’m not facing the prospect of the pit or benefits being the only choice in town, and I suspect neither are you.

aracer – Member

Given the 3 day week ended in ’74. You do know who was PM after Heath?

Yep certainly do, lived through it a complete and utter **** up it was too, what with Lib/Lab pacts and all that tooing and froing over who was actually in control. Hows this then,

Choice 1 : “Sorting the mess out was done by Wilson in his second term”

Or

Choice 2 : One of a number of messes sorted out by the Callaghan government after the relatively short and ineffective Wilson government.

So apologies, you are of course factually correct, but I think you will find that my original statement was in fact the correct interpretation of events.

S & J + mcboo

I’m neither an apologist for Brown or Thatcher. What really boils my piss is that people are very quick to forget what actually happened, and frequently as in this thread twist it to suit theor own arguments.

Not one word of what I said regarding the Falklands is untrue, not even slightly, neither did I raise the issue, all I said was that these things happened, and therefore it wasn’t her finest hour, however, much people like to paint it so.

Regarding mcboo’s flexible work force, you’re not wrong there fella, she took us from a situation where people tended to have a job for life, to one where the average person might expect to have to change direction on numerous occasions in their lives. Whether that is good or bad is debateable, and very much depends on your point of view. All I will say is that its no real surprise that people wanted to fight it, and I’m willing to bet money I could have handled it better, in fact I reckon my old mum bless her, could have done too while she was alive. Thatcher on the other hand was deliberately provocative and absolutely would not allow the thing to be done peaceably.

My view is that the Government should be the servant of the people, and therefore if by their actions they are doing things which are not in the best interests of the majority of the people, then that is wrong. Neither of the main parties appear able to grasp that simple concept.

Haven’t read the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned Pinochet yet?

Yep

Things aint perfect now but we’re doing OK and a lot of that is down to old Maggie. Miners? Who the hell would want to be a bloody coal miner anyway?

Could you eloborate on which bit exactly of the current situation you are outting down to Maggie, I’m a bit confused by what you mean.#

Re miners : In answer to your question, probably those people whose lives and communities were devastated, and all to frequently still are by Thatchers actions.

Well actually I was responding initially to what you posted before ‘G’, so fight your own battles

Same points worded differently, so again I’ll ask which of those facts are you disputing?

PS: Moses didn’t mention Iraq either.

Yep and they bloody nigh beat us too.

sootyandjim – Member
All this “removing the gunship (HMS Endurance) gave the green light to Argentina” is absolute cods and I’m afraid is the kind of talk that marks anyone out that uses it as a stark-raving, tin-foil hat wearing nut case.

OK sooty, so which precisely of the stated facts below are incorrect then? (I think you will find that the tin foil nutcase thing refers to conspiracy theorists, and crop circle wallers, not those with historical fact and perspective on their side.)

Falklands : Thatcher was negotiating with the Argentinians to hand the Falklands back to them. She ordered the withdrawal of the “gunship” that had been on station there forever. At the same time she was busily reducing our armed forces ability to operate at a distance. (Hermes and Invincible, one was on the way to the scrap yard, and the other had been sold to the Australian Navy at the time!!!!) These actions were taken as a diplomatic signal by the Argentinians that we would not respond if they made a move. The nett result being that Thatcher went from the least popular mid term government in history to the most popular.

As I clearly stated,

It is only possible to speculate on the logic behind her actions.

I wasn’t drawing any conclusion from those facts, other than the conflict coming about was not her finest hour, which it clearly wasn’t given these facts.

At no point whatsoever have I sought to defend the Iraq war in this thread. So whats your point?

acracer,

I never said Callaghan was pm in 74, not sure where you got that from. lanesra, had stated that Thatcher was responsible for smashing the 3 day week, I was pointing out that the 3 day week came in Heaths government, and by the logic he was using that the next government was responsible for sorting the mess out, that would be Callaghans government not Thatchers. But hey why bother to read anything, or include facts when you can make up your own to suit yourself?

Regarding the 3 day week, again as stated before, I think you’ll find that it came from the mishandling of relationships with the Unions over a fairly lengthy period of time. Much of which would have been to do with old school tie cronyism on both sides of the house.

Incidentally, could I just add that politically I am neither a lefty, nor a Tory, more of a very pissed off Social Democrat.

I’m afraid after my recent thread about speeding, this response is going to get boring and repetative…..
If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime” Right?

😉

Was I the only person to be a bit miffed with the cameraman sitting by the side of the trail about 100 yards from a tasty little descent into a stream crossing. Clever that postioning himself roundabout the exact point you were going to stall, or break your chain. Bet he’ll sell loads of those shots!

Imagine this sceanrio for a moment.

First trip to Taiwan for a new job. Meeting with extremely large and prestigious suppliers MD, guy comes into the room and is a very odd looking Chinese fella with an unfeasibly small body. As is the norm, business cards are exchanged with great formality being proffered with both hands, and received likewise and then examined intently, the more important the individual the more lenghty the inspection.

So the guy bows slightly to me, offers his card, I bow back and accept the card, then examine it closely……. this is then followed by strangled coughing noise and a rapid excuse to go to the loo.

The name on the card?? Mr Bighead Woo !

Mercedes-Chardonay….. absolute winner IMHO

Metaphoric stones or real ones?

Falklands : Thatcher was negotiating with the Argentinians to hand the Falklands back to them. She ordered the withdrawal of the “gunship” that had been on station there forever. At the same time she was busily reducing our armed forces ability to operate at a distance. (Hermes and Invincible, one was on the way to the scrap yard, and the other had been sold to the Australian Navy at the time!!!!) These actions were taken as a diplomatic signal by the Argentinians that we would not respond if they made a move. The nett result being that Thatcher went from the least popular mid term government in history to the most popular. It is only possible to speculate on the logic behind her actions. It most certainly wasn’t her finest hour by any stretch of the imagination, unless of course what then followed over the next 18 years leaves you moist!!

In military terms we got away with it by the skin of our teeth against a tin pot South American dictatorship. The loss of the Atlantic Conveyor took out the majority of our Chinook helicopters, thus the ensuing much vaunted yomp across the islands. If anyone sees that as a fanatastic outcome on her part, just remember that a) the war happened because of her in the first instance, b) it succeeded due to some major bottle and unnecessarily high casualties on the part of the military mainly forced upon them by cut backs.

Check your facts!

Done it every year since 2004. Every year I say never again and every year I do it.

Yesterday was the 1st time since 04 that I took the short option. Was having stomach cramps at the cut off point, and took discretion as the better part of valour. As always, well run, properly testing, and great fun. Hats off to the organisers yet again.

So another tee shirt for the collection !

My favourite was a repeated spoonerism where she just could not get what was wrong, looking at report coming off printer, she refered to the “comprinter puteout”

Only history will tell.

Personally, I prefer to step back from the hysteria and have a look at it in the cold light of day. I suspect that when thats possible, he may well be seen as a much maligned but correct in his actions and outlook, obvious party political dogma excepted.

Lanesra – Member
Margaret is truly the greatest PM w’ve ever had, smashed the Unions/Scargill etc..Right to buy, finished of the 3 day week.

Check your facts, as stated previously on this thread, the three day week came under Heath, Callaghans government therefore, by your logic should be credited, not Thatchers.

Some years ago, I had some pretty major staffing problems at a company I managed. The Chairman, who was a bit of a facist frankly, was threatening to wind the business up if the workforce bacame unionised. I called in ACAS in an effort to arbitrate and resolve. The truist line I ever heard on the subject came out of the ACAS’s guys lips when talking to the Chairman. These were, “you’ll get a union if you deserve one”.

Think about that in the context of the miners strike and the Tory generated 3 day week, then come back and have another look with your muddled thinking. . . . . esra!

roger the cat,

All you say is trueish, and in essence is why personally I am a fervant supporter of the EU. What actually happens in a global economy is there is an adjustment and an equalising over a period of time. I’ve been working in and around China for 30 years now, and the reality is that people there are better off now than at any time in the last 5000 years. Luxuries, like health and safety, and good working conditions are a function of being able to afford them, both on a macro and micro economic level. The first priorities are in fact food in belly, roof over head, basic security, and then you move on. That is all happening, and don’t make the mistake of seeing the workers as downtrodden. you would do well to remember that it is still a communist state, and individuals, contrary to popular misconception here do have say and do have rights.

In europe, we have historically had huge inequalities, not long ago Spain, Portugal and Italy were virtually third world and definately cheap manufacturing bases. They aren’t now, that is becuase of trade. the same is true of China, don’t ever forget that 90% of the population there are to this day existing through subsistance farming. My view is that by working with them over an extended period of time their overall standard of living will rise, and that can only be good.

To turn our own manufacturing around, we need to jettison much of the old ways of doing things, political processes and probably revisit poverty before we wake up sufficiently to get the hell on with it. It is the staid dyed in the wool governments and thought processes that are killing it off. I perosnally had great hopes that current scandal in Parliament would bring change about, but the problem is so many folk are brainwashed in this country they cannot see it for what it is. We need to off the aristocracy, revamp our system of government and most of all use the space between our ears to become competitive again.

Comrade G’ski’o’vitch

rogerthecat – Member
G – not sure I agree, but in the meantime could you lend Hora your special “Brown” rose tinted spectacles so at least he can get a better perspective on things.

Let’s not forget that Brown was the Chancellor for 10 years and the architect of the financial system that led to our current predicament – he is now industriously papering over the cracks of his own making

Not sure I see it that way to be honest, what I do see however, is an aftermath of 18 years of Tory rule that left state organisations like the NHS horribly starved of investment, Accordingly, huge volumes of cash had to be pumped in just to restore the status quo….(Remember one mans tax cut is anothers hospital building falling apart…. not immdediately obvious, by after a few years they do start to fall down), a situation where the self imposed boom and bust cycle, caused by government **** about with interest rates to generate feel good factors immdeiately prior to general elections has been stopped, (NB: Again not an arguable point, but the last recession at the end of the 80’s was directly and without fear of contradiction down to the Chancellor creating a pre election boom). Conversely, the current excess credit crunch,which has been fuelled by the policies implemented by Thatcher and Regan, not Brown, are being managed in what I perceive to be a sensible and sound fashion. If anyone remembers the end of the 80’s or the 70’s, they will know that this situation is not even close to how bad things got then!!! And before anyone starts wattering on about hes been in for x number of years and should have sorted it out, how exactly would you propose that he takes back the borrowings allowed by Thatchers lot, all the unaffordable mortgages and then persuade the banks to voluntarily go into liquidation because of their toxic debt loading, all of which comes directly in a straight line from demutualisation of the finacial institutions, associated policies, like housing for example and the removal of banking controls under Thatcher???

He is having to carry the can, its arguable even that he could perhaps have managed it better, but is not a situation of his making whatever colour of political persuasion you come from. Even DC and the rat Osborne don’t argue that, as they know full well thats it is not a place that they want to go politically, as there collective arses would be i nthe air if they did.

I think one of the major problems here is the abject failure to understand that often the fruit of political policies takes decades to show through. Both Thatchers and Brown policies have far reaching effects. We have yet to see the real impact of Brown’s, and I suspect that in years to come there will be strong arguments over them. Personally I think hes doing the best possible in the circumstances at the expense of his personal career. Whereas there was a subtle differecne with Thatcher. She did the best possible for herself and her cronies at everyone elses expense.

hora – Member
Just add, shes more man than we will ever be and will be remembered long after we are dead and buried

I really hope you didn’t have a stiffee when you typed that 😯

Bunnyhop – Member
Yes interests rates were really high, but proerties were affordable, unlike now.

Pop off to Waterstones and buy economics for dummies. About page two you will find that if there is an increased demand prices will rise. There are three things Thatcher did that increased demand.

1) She did her best to kill off what is now called social housing, leaving more people with little option other than to buy.
2) She destabilised the family unit, resulting in very large numbers of single parent families, as a result two homes required instead of one.
3) She increased the money supply, this increased demand, increased demand for a finite resource, (in this case land) = prices go up.

Get your facts sorted out man.

Bunnyhop – Member
G – A bit like now then, people losing their homes all over the country, having no jobs to pay the mortgage.

Whatever terrible thing happened to you, surely it doesn’t justify wanting an old lady to break her neck.

More selective memory? No they bloody well aren’t no comaprision whatsoever, Interest rates are at an all time low, and the government have bent over backwards to a) Shorten the recession and b) ensure that as few people as possible lose their homes, that in an environment where people have been encouraged by historical Tory policies to over extend their credit ridiculously. Generally the way that is perceived on here is that GB has sold the family jewels, and that he should have closed the Pandoras box opened by Thatcher and Reagan. Well in my book, selling off and/or killing off our industrial base out of spite for the unions is selling off the jewels. Using the countries assets to the benefit of the poepulation isn’t. Taking a caring and sensible view as to how to minimise the impact of recession on the nation to me is OK.

Standing firm when the going gets tough is a sign of leadership, not weakness.

biggulp – Member

Would anyone like to suggest what would the UK have been like in the 80s if we hadn’t had Thatcher?

Good question, most people seem to have forgotten what it was like just before Thatcher with the unions runing the country, 3 day week, power cuts during the winter, only being able to go to school 3 days a week, OK that was a bonus

Tories mismanage workforce shocker!

Get it right!! FFS, this is at the seat of the issues between Thatcher and Ted Heath. It was the Tory attitude towards inflation and the economy that caused the 3 day week and union unrest, not the other way around. Not only that it was under a Tory government, not Labour.

Where do you work? Helmand Province?

Bunnyhop – Member
Thatcher – Made me get off my backside and work my socks off. She gave me the opportunity to buy my first home. All this at a young age age.

As I recall it I had two opportunities to regret the opportunity to buy my first home under Mrs T, once early 80′ when interest rates hit 15%, and once at the end of the 80’s when, yes, you guessed it interest rates again hit 15%, whilst at the same time many of my hardworking and highly SELF-motivated mates actually lost their homes and some are still paying for it.

I met her once, yes she was a grump and not very friendly.

Nuff said

Oh and all the people I know who voted for her in the 80’s certainly don’t have chavs for children. They have all turned out as unselfish, caring hard working menbers of society.

Missing the point here a tad, she was most careful to make sure that the people who voted for her didn’t end up with Chavs for children, its just everyone else in the 60 % of the population that didn’t vote for her that she shat all over.

As for saying that they wished a frail old lady to have broken her neck, is disgusting.

Not if shes completely ruined someone close to you or your own life it isn’t, frankly its quite mild.

PeterPoddy – Member

She created a generation that became the parents of the chavs – as deliberate policy

Jesus H Christ
What a load of utter bilge
You’ve surpassed even the bull you spout about helmets now, which I previously thought was impossible

Sorry can’t accept that PP. She was in charge and one of the traits that Thatcherites like, (well apart from dressing as schoolboys and being spanked), was the fact that she had absolute control over everything. So that being the case if you accept they were of her time, then it had to be deliberate policy on her part by that token.

So the question is were Chavs a result of Thatcherite policies and years, well as TJ states their parents and their attitudes are the result of her
time in Government of that there is no doubt, so if you subscribe to the theory of “blame the parents”, which I suspect you do, you have to concede TJ’s point frankly……

Mind you I’m with you on helmet bilge

I hate, and I mean absolutely without equivication hate having Thought Police in my life.

If I want to look at a person on or off line I will. If by so doing I feel that it may offend, or I subsequently become aware that my behaviour is offending someone, then I will make a value judgement as to how to deal with it dependant upon the prevailing circumstances at the time. I really don’t need someone else poking their nose in, as all to frequently happens nowadays.

BWD that means you, and currently I am not aware of anyone, you apart who is offended by my actions. My value judgement therefore is to totally ignore what you have to say, as I don’t feel it has any relevance to me or to those whom my actions may effect. By all means anyone who is genuinely offended by my viewing of this thread please let me know, so I can consider it.

In the meantime back to glopping……

Personally, I shall respond to this news with a similar degree of concern as that which she and hers showed to me and mine when in authority.

Oh right, so shes realised that shes backed the losing side then?

Personally GB has improved a notch or so in my estimation for seeing her and her fellow conspiriters off.

TJ I think you mean white is black…… 😉

Am I the only person who has noticed the unfortunate resemblance to the letter “i” struck by the lovely recently sold and extremely talented Footballer near the top of this thread??? 8)

There you go Tanky, situation normal and everythings rosy in the garden and I’m agreeing with TJ once more

You’re bored aren’t you?

Rudey, what does expressing your onion mean? Is it rude?

Personally I’d go for a change toward social democratic liberalism myself, its just that I can’t find one with a spine and a skeleton free closet to front it up.

BWD what abuse? I was going to call you a W**k*r, but decided it against as it was so obviously inappropriate, but you can’t moan about unexpressed thoughts surely??

Wheres Rude Boy when you need him?

BWD, its exactly that sort of attitude thats got this country where it is today IMHO

Well I’m offended!

Its undermining my pasty, flatulent, overweight, middle aged personna, and I distinctly feel anorexic as a result of this stereotypical view of men as sex objects