Kryton57

Full Member

Not tying to be antagonistic but I’d love to understand why you lot are on the lists.  Granted YMMV and Rolex reputation, it’s an overly expensive buy from a company that’s kinda pushed its clientele near the edge with its self driven exclusivity, and there’s plenty of videos about with either QC issues, or mechanical gaps in capability not worthy of the equivalent gap in price.

So a genuine question, are they really that good, worth the money and a peak of horologoly for you all, and have i missed something?

There’s a thread on TRF about 32xx movement issues, 171 pages long and counting…

isnt it the crown o-ring that expands to leave a gap in the tube though?

It’s tight around the outside of the tube but it’s also tight against the inside of the crown and has nowhere to go, so if it does expand then it’s only going to fill the gap even tighter.

Going from extreme heat to extreme cold could in theory pose a problem as then the gasket shrinks and it could let in water between the crown and gasket, but the gasket is already in compression from both sides so in all likelihood it’s never going to shrink enough to become a concern.

Kryton57Full Member
I took an Animal watch to 6m in 2007 🙂

There was a YouTube video about this recently, on the basis “just have a think about how deep 50m underwater is” when your buying a watch.  Of course you need to remember it isn’t about depth, it’s about pressure on the watches gaskets/compressors, hence rather than depth you’ll see the rating as Bar.     Added to that, the warmth of the water / environment can expand the gaskets and reduce the resistance to pressure, hence not recommended to be wearing a watch below 20bar in a hot shower and 50bar in Steam room / hot pool.    You can hit .5 bar or 50m pretty quickly spraying a watch crown with a non pressurised garden hose for example….

0.5 bar = 5m, and you need to move at 32mph to generate an extra 1 bar of dynamic pressure underwater.

As for heat expanding the gaskets, that’ll increase the water resistance, not compromise it.

There’s a lot of hearsay that gets given as fact when this discussion pops up, not helped by the manufacturers covering their arses by telling you things like 30m is only splash proof and shouldn’t be worn in a pool. These two articles should hopefully answer all questions and clear up any myths –

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/tale-of-two-isos-what-water-resistance-ratings-really-mean

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/seven-dive-watch-myths-deep-sixed

Kato
Full Member

@diz a watch winder won’t charge up a Seiko Kinetic

Of course it will, the clue is in the name.

But what you really want for a Kinetic is a wireless induction charger. Seiko did do one but it’s long discontinued, so people are using toothbrush chargers instead. Some work and some don’t, so DYOR before buying anything.

neilnevill
Free Member
I thought Sporks were quite a liked watch? Surprised it’s not got the AM parts for them. That would be frustrating.

They’ve a bit of a cult following but they were only sold for a year or two so not many out there, so there’s not much incentive for someone to do a run of 100 a/m crowns if it could take years to sell them all.

Which means that I am still without a replacement movement for my 7002-7020, but I am sure that can be sorted, too…

7x series movements were produced for over 25 years so there’s no shortage of parts for them. The 4R, 6R and NH movements are an evolution of the 7x and some parts are interchangeable.

CountZero
Full Member
Cheers Dave, I remember a discussion about the SPORK, regarding replacing the Hardex with sapphire, but it had slipped my mind about the movement. I would guess that despite increasing interest in the SPORK, it was never produced in enough numbers to have aftermarket parts produced. Shame, I’d certainly prefer a sapphire crystal, but I’ll have to stick with what’s available. 🤷🏼

You’d think that a movement based on the 4r15 would be a simple enough swap, but as you say, things like winders and crowns vary according to the case shape and dimensions, which obviously vary a lot more than might be obvious. Especially with Seiko.

I’ll drop you a line once we get all the holidays out of the way, and things are a bit more settled down. 👍🏼

Maybe an SKX crown has the same thread size as the Spork case and then the movement swap is a goer, but don’t get your hopes up as I’d have expected it to have been done by now but yet there’s no other examples out there. If it had been done then I’d expect that someone would have documented it online, but I’ve yet to see it.

CountZero
Full Member

@Fudd – I’m thinking that my SP043RK could probably do with a service; I’ve had it at least twelve years, now, and it was NOS when I bought it. Having said that, it’s a 4r15 movement, so there’s a case to be made for just replacing it with a more updated model, which is hackable. I’ve also got a new crystal which I’d like fitted, the original is quite scratched now, so what do you think?

Apols, just seen this. You need a new crown and stem to fit a different movement and as far as I’m aware no crown exists for the Spork other than the original one piece crown and stem. I did look into it a few years ago when you first suggested it but drew a blank, so unless someone has since started making aftermarket Spork crowns it can’t be done.

If you want it serviced you can send me a pm or email to dave@benchdweller.uk.

Saccades
Free Member

@sven too kind, please tell me the cost of the nh36.

I could be wrong but I don’t think a NH movement will fit a 7002 case. There’s a plastic ring around the movement which is very different between the two and the 7002 has the crown at 4 vs the crown at 3.45 on the NH, so if you got past the movement ring issue the date wouldn’t be aligned.

Saccades
Free Member
That’s an SKX171 which came with a 7s26 movement, that movement has been superceded by the 4R36 which will also give you hacking and handwinding. It’s a like for like swap and will set you back £50.

You need to fit a new crown as well. It’s a one piece crown and stem on the SKX and the 4R uses a different stem, so either buy an aftermarket SKX crown for £15 and use the 4R stem, or buy a one piece crown and stem from the SARB059 which usually costs around £35.

Indeed. For a high roller, they’ll cover flights, food, hotel, and whatever else you care to request. Because they know you’ll lose more in the casino than they spend…

There was a video doing the rounds there of some Cryptobro showing around his hotel suite, usually $40k per night but he said they’d bumped it up to $400k for the F1 weekend and he was staying for free. He seemed to believe he was a true high-roller, but I was sitting there thinking what a massive loser you must be when casino’s are letting you stay for free.

neilnevill
Free Member
Does it not have erne triple lock crown then? The one with 3 dots beneath the coronet.

Twinlock so two crown gaskets instead of three, but the reality is that it’s likely just as water resistant as a Sub.

Rolex themselves deliberately limiting production…

The only Rolex that was ever limited production is the SS Daytona. Everything else is just supply stripping demand. They’re flat out and announced a $1bn investment in a new factory last year, so don’t believe all the clickbait vids on YT or s/h dealer sales talk.

thekingisdead
Free Member

\tangent

I’ve seen a very collectible vintage watch at an auction house (the traditional type) that also run online auctions.

from the limited pics it looks in reasonable condition / not a franken-watch

Where do these places typically find their stock (it’s being sold as part of a lot with a load of no value watches).

I’ve always figured that in the modern world there is very little scope for arbitrage as it’s so easy to find something’s true value on the internet.

if I can get the watch for the estimated price it could be a steal, but I’m wary of getting something that is a rust pit once the movement is opened up (I can’t visit the auction to view in person)

Be careful. One of the oldest tricks is to put a fake in with a bunch of very ordinary watches and the seller hopes someone spots it and takes the bait.

boblo
Free Member
4hrs? Bloody hell. Fully dissembled, cleaned and reassembled in 4hrs. Dunno what you do for a living but would being a watch jockey pay a decent return on current evidence?

That is what I do.

It takes about 45 mins to disassemble as all you’re doing is attacking it with a screwdriver and laying it all out on the bench. 20-30 minutes in the cleaning machine and I’ll have a coffee break, then the remaining 2-3 hours on the rebuild as I’m going over the pictures I’ve taken working out how it goes back together and referencing the tech sheet to confirm where it needs lubricated and which lubricants should be used, plus doing checks on every operation as it goes back together and closely inspecting every part for wear.

That’s on a seven year old watch which hasn’t been messed with before so stuff like this is gravy. It’s when you get the 40+ year old watches that’ve previously been through the hands of butchers where you need to know your s**t and it might require several hours on top tracing and remedying the problems, often with a break for a few days or weeks while you’re waiting on parts from the internet to arrive. Then you total it all up at the end and sometimes you realise you’ve barely made minimum wage on that one.

tall_martin
Full Member
All the parts of that watch laid out like that gives me the fear!

I cannot imagine being able to take all that to bit and not mash/ mislay / lose some tiny tiny bit 😱

It took me 2h to take a hoover to bits and get it back together yesterday. Parts count is alot less than that!

Just take lots of pictures as you strip it down and lay out the parts in order. A wooden floor for when you inevitably drop parts also helps, as does a golf putter with strong magnets attached for sweeping up the dropped parts .

Houston we have a problem…

A couple of months back I left the chronograph running overnight and the next day it had stopped. It’s only seven years old and was keeping good without the chrono running and the amplitude was around 300, but operate the chrono and the amplitude drastically drops, the line on the timegrapher starts wandering all over the place and then it stops. Obviously not right so time for a look.

I opened it up and on close inspection there’s tiny black spots of dirt on the movement –

There’s only one extra wheel running when the chrono is engaged which is the seconds recording wheel, which is the top centre wheel seen below –

I removed the bridge with the Omega logo, then the hammer and spring which allowed the seconds wheel to be removed an cleaned. I didn’t see anything which would cause a problem, but after reassembly it was exactly the same. This was telling me the centre wheel, which is directly underneath the seconds wheel might have some dirt trapped inside the tube where the seconds pinion runs through, but to get at that the whole thing has to come apart, so that’s what I did –

When I removed the train wheel bridge, and then the crown wheel which is attached to the underside I found the culprit –

I’m not sure what lubricant was originally used here, but it appears to have hardened and then migrated through the movement causing the problems. Happy that I’d found the cause, everything went into the cleaner for a full movement service and now with the chrono running it looks like this –

When I bought this I was thinking I’d send it to Omega when service time comes. Obviously I can do it myself, but the two year Omega warranty would add value and provenance if I were ever to sell, plus the case would be refinished to a standard I could never achieve. The only problem was the cost as Omega are now charging £825 to service one of these, so **** the provenance and all that, it’s good for the next 6+ years, I can live with the scratches it’s picked up, and it’s only cost me about four hours of my time.

My Seiko SP043RK, on the other hand, is absolutely 100% Seiko…

Ahem…

Soz CZ, that was a low blow, but at least Seiko put their own spin on it. They’ve been much more blatant in the past…

Homage is when you copy a design then put either your own name on it (Smiths, Steeldive etc) or leave it sterile, and fake is when you steal a brand name and try to fool the punters. Whoever put those ‘mods’ together has no connection to Seiko beyond buying a batch of movements from them, so that’s where it crosses the line, for me at least.

@Gravedigger – Those ‘Seiko mods’ contain nothing made by Seiko apart from the movements which are made by a subsidiary of Seiko, yet they are branded with Seiko on the dial, so while some may see them as mods or Rolex or Omega homage’s they’re just fakes to my eyes.

Thanks chaps.

igm
Full Member
Dismantling is the easy bit.

100%. The hardest part is working out where all the left over screws are supposed to go.

CountZero
Full Member

@fudd – nice buy, and a nice, classic Seiko. Always rather fancied a proper Tuna, but I’d rather it was a mechanical than a quartz.

The only mechanical Tunas are in 600m or 1000m cases and they’re just a step too far for my wrists unfortunately. There’s a number of other Seiko’s with shrouds and auto movements but they’re not the same, even though they’ve all got that X on the dial these days (mutter, grumble etc).

Kryton57
Full Member

@fudd with the greatest respect though you service your own watches whereas most of us have to pay for that service?

Makes a difference…

Not really – oils still deteriorate, gaskets harden and moving parts will eventually wear out.

If it’s any consolation I’ve seen 50 year old watches that’ve never been serviced that appear to be running just fine and needing just an overhaul and new gaskets to be running like new again, but then I’ve also seen 10-15 year old watches in for their first service and the bill more than doubles due to the amount of parts required.

But enough about that, here’s my latest arrival –

Another non-running Seiko via Yahoo Japan in the shape of a 7549-7010 ‘Tuna’.

This is the first Quartz Tuna Seiko released alongside the 600m 7549-7009 in 1978, this one being built in August the following year. JDM model so you’ve got Professional on the dial rather than the SQ branding the rest of the world got plus the Kanji day wheel.

It’s a bit battered looking but the dial and hands appeared perfect and I knew it would scrub up well. I ordered a new crystal and Hexad bracelet from Strapcode at the same time and hoped that the only other thing it would need would be a battery, but upon arrival I could see the coil was damaged, so while I was waiting for that to arrive I did the usual –

Flip it over to the back side and you can see why it was listed as a junk item –

When a quartz watch dies it’s usually because of the battery, but if someone with fat fingers, two left hands and crap tools replaces the battery and the screwdriver slips… No biggie as a good s/h coil is only £25 and you need to expect these things when buying a non-runner. Sometimes the circuit can die for no reason, and when an old battery leaks it can be catastrophic but there were no more surprises with this one.

You can see the old crown gasket vs new where the old one has compressed into an almost square section –

And then ten minutes after the new coil arrived this –

I also fitted the MM300 ratcheting clasp that was on my SKX –

At 47mm it’s a beast and the chunky bracelet adds to that, but with the relatively short lug to lug it’s surprisingly wearable, even with my skinny 6.75″ wrist. I just need to regulate it now as it was running over 1m fast per day and I don’t have the equipment for measuring quartz accuracy, so I’ll have to do it the slow way by adjusting the trim screw on the movement and timing it each day. I might end up sending it to my mate who has the kit to do it properly but we’ll see how it goes.

Futureboy77
Full Member
Interested to hear about the service intervals on Seikos/SPORK etc

Similar to every other mechanical watch – six to eight years is when the timekeeping will start to change and the amplitude drops, maybe four if you’re unlucky and got a ‘Friday afternoon’ watch but you might not notice it unless you own a timegrapher. After ten years the oils will start drying up and you’re risking a parts bill on top of the servicing cost when you do eventually service it.

In the case of Seiko they can be poorly assembled and regulated from new and so the timekeeping might even improve as it gets older, but at least they’re cheap and you can just put a mew movement in for less than what a good watchmaker would charge to service the old movement.

Just like fox forks, they don’t NEED to be serviced according to the manufacturers recommendation.

Or just like a car, you can drive it for 50k miles without servicing and it’ll still get you from A to B and you probably won’t notice the gradual drop off in performance, but I’d rather service mine every year than save a few quid before eventually getting a bill for an engine rebuild.

The SPORK? If so then we talked about it a while back and there was no sapphire option available – the crystal has a bevelled edge to clear the insert so you can’t fit a generic crystal, and there was no aftermarket sapphire I could find. Original is the only option and I couldn’t find one of those either.

Or I might be getting mixed up and you’re talking about something else..?

Thanks y’all!

Lovely stuff @Fudd. Didn’t know there was so much to a quartz watch.

I like that it’s on the Japanese day display! I leave my Seiko 5 on Japanese days because I can never be bothered to set the correct weekday on the 1st!

Most collectors have no idea how a quartz works and can be dismissive of them, but once you understand them and see the similarities with mechanicals you gain a new appreciation for them.

Unfortunately the early 80’s was a high point for Seiko quartz (GS and Credor excepted obvs) as they learnt that they could make plates and wheels out of plastic thus requiring no lubrication, and they could make the coils part of the circuit board to save production costs, so now most modern quartz are disposable when they eventually stop working.

As for the Kanji day on display – if you’re wearing a JDM watch then them’s the rules.

And then a couple of hours later…

I’ll be honest and say that when it arrived I’d almost instantly decided I was going to sell it on – it’s a 37mm case and like nearly all Seiko’s it wears smaller than it’s true dimensions, but I decided to give it a week on the wrist and now that I’m used to it it’s safe for now. The biggest problem is that it’s got me looking at other 7A38’s so it may still get chopped if a 7030 appears for a good price…

Here’s my latest arrival, a JDM only Seiko 7A28-6040 from 1984. It was listed as a non-runner and showing plenty of caked in dirt, but it fired up with a new battery which was nice.

The only problem was the pushers were jammed with dirt, so the case a bracelet got several cycles through the ultrasonic cleaner and all gaskets were replaced. I decided to re-brush the bracelet and clasp while I was at it –

I also fitted a sapphire with blue a/r but it looked out of place on an almost 40 year old watch, so the old one which was scratched but not enough to detract was refitted. The minute counter hand was ever so slightly out of alignment and bugging me so I was going to fix that, but as I’d originally planned to give the movement a full service…

TBC…

There’s a chap who advertises on Ebay who specialises in Kinetic capacitor replacement and seems to get decent reviews. It not hard to diy if you’ve changed a battery before, but if it your first time tinkering and you also have to buy screwdrivers, a case back opener and springbar tool to get the bracelet out of the way then you’re probably better off giving it to someone who’s done it many times before.

ETA: When the capacitor goes really flat they can take a long time of shaking in your hand to get some charge back in, so try that first.

It was a nice story, shame the watch service didn’t go too well.

If he’d the first idea of how to use his cleaning machine it probably would’ve saved some of the issues encountered later on, but failure the address the shagged out barrel arbour bushings when they’re that far gone is always going to have it looking like crap on the timing machine.

He does admit he’s just a hobbyist so I’ll leave it at that.

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but…

As someone who really doesn’t give a toss about watches I keep seeing adverts on my social media for Seiko mods on Etsy, specifically this one

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1197146450/seiko-nh35-automatic-black-submariner?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=seiko+mod&ref=sc_gallery-1-1&bes=1&sts=1&plkey=57632b8f245017faabb815598dbabfd0a2eee1d3%3A1197146450

And it’s grown on me. Now certain personal events have made me want to get something special as a memory, this would be nice… How does it rate?

The only part of that watch which is made by Seiko is the movement, and even that’s not certain as the NH35 is now being faked.

For the same money I’d be looking at genuine Seiko’s from a reputable dealer such as Creation Watches.

Another one for The Cure here.

Back when they were bothering the charts I was a teenager and could never get into the jingly-jangly Indie pop that was popular back then (see also The Smiths).

Then a few years ago I was watching Glasto live on the BBC, The Cure were headlining on Sunday and they blew me away with one of the best sets of the weekend. Prior to this I’d have struggled to name a song of theirs apart from Friday I’m in Love, but I was familiar with every tune they played and hearing them all back to back was a revelation of just how strong their back catalogue is.

I still can’t get The Smiths though.

Shut up and take my money!

https://www.tudorwatch.com/en/pelagos-39

No problem dear, I just didn’t realise you were specifically talking about the U1 and when I checked they were all plus vat bringing them in line with rrp.

@Fudd, no, those prices are not ex-VAT. I’ve already ordered two Sinns (and plenty of other stuff) from that shop. There may be tax/duty differences importing to the UK but the euro price is ‘ttc’ (all taxes included).

This is how it looks from the UK –

I’m not sure if this works to the UK but this shop, which I’ve used quite a few times, is about 20% under RRP for the Sinn U1 SDR; and Sinn don’t usually discount. Not sure about other models but worth a look… https://ocarat.com/diving-watch-u1-sdr-full-tegiment-sinn-16965.html

Those prices are plus vat so around rrp when it’s added.

TBH that metal GM-B2100 is kind of the antithesis; an overpriced, shiny wrist bauble trading on some notion of G Shock “Heritage”, a vague resemblance to an AP Royal Oak plus verbose, bullshit laced endorsements from whichever self aggrandising, aspirational capitalist grifter is doing the rounds currently…

That’ll be the youngest one from Dragons Den – http://www.watchpro.com/why-the-fieriest-dragons-den-mogul-chooses-g-shock-casioak/

Love the U50 Nicko. If they did a 41mm UX Hydro I’d be sorely tempted…

neilnevill
Free Member
What Movements do sinn use?

I thought they were all Selitta in the autos and ETA in the quartz, but I’ve been nerding out on Sinn the last few weeks and discovered they’re also using Concepto 7750 clones and La Joux-Perret in the Diapal chrono, which is basically a heavily modified 7750.

So, this is the IWC Pilot 41 chrono which I’m saving up for at £5,250:
But this is Steinhart’s homage at €1050:
Both use an ETA 7750 Vajoux Elabore, note the texture on the Steinhart.
WWSTW do?!

I can’t think of a single watch with a 7750 I’d pay over 5k for.

My limit would be with the Pands Speedmaster or IWC 3706 and both are attainable for under 3k, so a nice 3706 with the bracelet is the correct answer

nice fudd, congrats. I don’t know Sinn watches well, care to share a bit about it?

Cheers! It’s Sinn’s entry level watch so a top grade ETA 2824 inside and 38.5mm case. You can get them with different dials and strap options, but the ‘A’ dial and H-link bracelet is the classic combo for me.

I’ve wanted one for ages but it never happened for whatever reason, then a month or so back I decided to buy a new one but the site was showing 30 week delivery times, so when this mint 2018 watch showed up on TZUK it was perfect timing.

They’re a brand that few outside of watch collectors are aware of with a no BS approach to watchmaking, so if it has an ETA movement they’ll say so and none of this crap about modified movements or in-house where none exists, which I find refreshing in this day and age.

This is my first Sinn but I don’t think it’ll be the last…

Tz-uk sales corner is in full on summer slump mode. This means I’ve had no luck yet selling, and it means more same more incredible watches piling up…. It’s torture and incredible at the same time.

I dunno, the Sinn 556A that appeared a couple of weeks ago was gone in a couple of hours.

As soon as I saw it I was like a fat kid on cake :)

This featured on Antiques Roadshow on Sunday:

A very rare Apollo/Soyuz Speedy.

Worth at least £80k apparently. Guy was arse smacked.

Seen that. There was some discussion about it over on Omega forums and the consensus was that as it was commissioned by an Italian jeweller and not Omega themselves it was probably worth closer to £30k. Turns out it sold in December for £41.5k so still a nice return for something that was previously cluttering up a drawer.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/26687/lot/12/

Right. So that being the case, what’s the issue with Omega servicing their own watches? Or is the parts famine applicable to 3rd party repairs/servicing only?

Pretty much. Imagine you’ve bought an old BMW but you know the local official dealer is a douche never mind the extortionate hourly rate, but at least you’ve still got the choice to take it elsewhere for servicing… BMW would very much prefer to restrict supply of parts to independents and lock you in to main dealer servicing as then they could pick a number out of thin air when billing you for parts, but EU courts looked into that and deemed it anti-competitive and therefore illegal.

Same thing with Swatch; They want to force the customer into official servicing at a price that suits them very nicely, and again we’ve had a court case but this time the court has said that’s fine.

There’ll be many Swiss watch companies who were following this closely and are now breathing easily again.

@fudd Thanks for that. Sorry about the Engrish, automangle made a bit of a mess of it…

So 300m is no more and don’t wear it in the bath…

Isn’t the Crown and Helium valve an Omega part rather than ETA as it’s the case rather than the movement? Not arguing the toss, just curious.

ETA and Omega are both owned by Swatch group and have the same restrictions.

@fudd So if you’ve got one of the older Seamaster with the ETA movement, what are the imitations for service/repairs/spares please?

Having an independent servicing the movement should be no problem as there’ll never be a parts shortage with Sellita and others making movement parts now, but if you want it waterproof you’ll need a new crown and HE valve which are becoming hard to find. I expect there’ll be more aftermarket case parts coming to market like there is with bezel inserts but who knows what the quality will be like.

Cousins have taken Swatch to court in Switzerland accusing them of anti-competition by refusing to supply parts, just like there was years ago when the EU forced car manufacturers to supply parts, but I got an email from Cousins this morning and it’s not looking good –

Judgement Given by the Bern Court
On 28 December 2021, our Swiss lawyers received the long awaited judgement from the Bern Court.
At the moment we do not have a full translation, but whilst the Court confirmed our position that Swatch are 100% market dominant in the supply of spare parts, it does not appear to have followed previous case law relating to companies with such monopolies, and has ruled that Swatch’s refusal to supply Cousins does not breach British and EU Competition Law.

Cousins has until the 1st of February 2022 to lodge an appeal at the Swiss Federal Supreme Court. Our legal teams in Switzerland and the UK will be studying the judgement over the next few days, and we will provide further information and updates as we are able.

Great work @gaidong. Getting the seconds hand located on its pinion can be very tricky, but if you can do that without destroying the hand or dial then it’s a good indicator you have the dexterity for movement work.

Swatch (ETA) didn’t stop supplying that long ago, they were in a supply agreement which tapered until 2019 so supply ended last year at the earliest.

I’m not sure what they are putting into the market now but it wouldn’t be unusual for their to still be sufficient stock in wholesale channels to supply microbrands putting out small numbers.

Not sure which wholesalers you use but Cousins almost doubled the price of ETA movements and Omega parts overnight when the ban came into effect and they now hold a fraction of the Omega stock they had 4 or 5 years ago. They still have ‘loose pack’ ETA movements which will have come from elsewhere and should ideally be serviced before fitting to a watch, but there’s very few factory sealed movements available anymore.