Waderider – Surely if there’s no alternative available using current technology, that counts as no viable alternative?

I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how I can do my job without doing silly miles in a car and paying more and more for the privilege.

Best video I’ve seen recently is the Freecaster 2010 video – pretty much the exact opposite of the recent US stuff.
It’s the one DVD that genuinely makes me want to get out on my bike – “proper” riding ( 😉 ), not sped up, no arty camera angles and a bit of insight into the pro DH’ers lifestyle. I know Warner’s a bit of a tool but I almost warmed to him too, especially on his helmet cam commentaries!

I have noticed with mine that it’s not quite as easy to clip in compared to other shoes I use (on Time Atacs) As above, I assume it’s because of the slightly deeper tread on the soles.

Not had any problems unclipping though

I got an Aldi’s one for £69 and it’s been spot on so far (comes with a 3 year warranty too).
I know some of the shops round here were selling the remaining ones off for £49 recently but that was a couple of weeks ago – I guess they’ve probably gone now.

Oh god, another chance for some idealistic utopian ranting 😯

Speak to Endura direct? They’ve been really helpful with me in the past. Although they may still just say send it to them.

edit. They were pretty quick when I sent my eVent jacket to them.

A friend did a while back – excellent service iirc. I think they give the frame a once over and replace bearings etc – you end up with a shiny new (looking) frame 🙂

Brief but still interesting – good call, thanks.

I’ll be interested to see how well that works. Just been out on my HT for the first time in months – I felt properly battered on the descents*. If its good then it should make a difference though 🙂

* still great fun though and dead easy on not-too-technical stuff – nice to have it working again 🙂

Can I put the first bid in to buy your hard tail off you at the end of the week. I reckon you’ll pay me to take it away 😉

Did it last year. Loved it. Year off this year then back again with a big group next year.

Well that’s the plan anyway 🙂

I think I’m wasting my time. I’m off to see some animals! 🙄

LHS – I give up. You’re not doing yourself any favours and are obviously too obsessed with your own point of view to accept any other argument.

I think you should be aiming your rants towards the general public who are, at the end of the day, the driving force behind any of these enterprises. The call for cheap food is very strong.

As for the Meat/Dairy diet vs more vegetarian lifestyles – that’s an entirely different argument I feel?

LHS – you’re doing it again!

normal life for the last god knows how many years has been sheltered during the winter months and outside in big open fields the rest of the year. Overnight you are now changing that to being locked in metal pens in a concrete multi-story car park for the rest of their life.

So you now admit it’s “normal” for them to be housed at least part of the year? This not an over night change – there are already very good zero grazing units (admittedly not on this scale) present around the country – rightly or wrongly they exist. As for the “concrete multi story car park” – a bit emotive and exaggerating?

After milking if you gave the cow an option of a grass field or a concrete pen to walk into, which do you think it would choose?

That very much depends on the weather. The majority of cows would rather live in a warm, dry, comfortable stall than out in squally rain ankle deep in mud which frequently happens in Summer. I don’t recall ever seeing a cow kept in a “Concrete pen” – it just would be possible to keep them healthy.

Once again, I appreciate your point of view and healthy debate is good and to be encouraged. Throwing these exaggerated images around and calling people “idiots” and “cruel” and generally insulting their intelligance isn’t going to win you any arguments though.

GlitterGary – you keep trying don’t you 🙄

uplink – yes 🙂

lifer – again you are quoting sources that, whilst giving some true information, mix it up with over exaggeration and emotion to cloud the actual underlying facts.

Yes, higher yielding cows are more susceptible to some diseases. IMHO too much emphasis has been place on increasing yield at the expense of other problems (confirmation, fertility, etc). This is a problem that has been present for years, to the point where a lot of farmers are actually returning to more traditional breeds of cattle to produce better quality milk. Unfortunately, because the main concern of the consumer is the price they pay rather than the quality of the product, these farms are always going to struggle to make a good living.
This argument has nothing to do with the presence of the larger units though – if anything the larger units are “kinder” to these high yielding cows as they are geared up to cater for them with increased frequency of milking, larger stalls for them to lie in, better waste management to remove slurry and prevent them standing in it.
The skill of a good dairyman is in identifying these problems that exist in ALL dairy cattle to varying degrees and treat them before they become a problem. As stated ad nauseum, sick, tired, stressed or otherwise unhealthy cows will not produce high yields of milk!

if you think that keeping animals in multi-storey concrete sheds in unnatural conditions, with no access to exercise or fresh grass outdoors, and essentially living in the most dire conditions ever then god help us

I give up. See my previous responses to all the above comments for a “professional”, informed, opinion based on my experience and education. Oh, and many of these “zero grazing” units do actually still feed grass – it’s cut daily and either fed fresh, or stored as silage/hay/straw.

I’m certainly not saying that huge units containing thousands of cows is ideal, or in any way the “right way forwards”. There are many other questions that need answering (effect on the surrounding water/plant life, financial impact on other farms & the surrounding area etc etc et…). What I am saying is that you are actually hindering your personal argument by using unsubstantiated, emotive, and in some cases completely incorrect quotes and comments.

There are those blinkers again!

Unfortunately I’m beginning to realise it’s not me who has the blinkers on but you. You clearly have strong opinions and are unable to accept facts given to you as evidence to the contrary.

I would still like to know what qualifies you as an expert in farming? With all due respect, I do class myself as someone well versed in these matters and qualified to make judgements on animal welfare as it happens to be my job.

partypants – I’m afraid you’re just quoting further examples of emotive half truths

Cows are kept in a “post pregnant state” so they continue producing milk. Even if it’s not hormones, or whatever is banned in the EU, some chemical is keeping them that way

That’s what tends to happen in the wild tbh – animals get pregnant, rear young, then as soon as possible get pregnant again – it’s how they survive in a hostile world. There’s little artificial about it

Additionally, the cows are kept on a regular dose of antibiotics to keep disease at bay. Once it has infiltrated the group it’s hard to stamp out.

No offence but that’s completely wrong. Sub therapeutic antibiotic used to be used in other countries in other species to help promote “healthy growth” but that has been banned in the EU for decades. Cows that are ill are treated with anti-biotics – anything more than that would be wastefull and prohibitively expensive. I think you’re getting confused with vaccination?

Humans are becoming more and more resistant to anti-biotics because they consume so much of it, in small doses, through eating meat and dairy products on a daily basis.

Again, wrong. There is no hard evidence to suggest that antibiotic use in the veterinary field contributes to resistance in human disease. Very few modern veterinary antibiotics are used in human medicine these days and numerous restrictions/regulations are in place to ensure farm animals under anti-biotic treatment do not contribute any milk/meat to the human food chain.

djglover – I entirely agree, and I would like to hope that that is the view of most open minded, responsible people…. Unfortunately that probably isn’t the case

And all I ask is that you take your blinkers off and start looking at more responsible farming and thinking about the welfare of the animals rather than 5p off your pint of milk.

The biggest problem facing UK farming is the fact that the UK consumer (rightly) demands the best in welfare standard for animals farmed in this country, yet is happy to then go to the nearest supermarket and buy the cheapest produce imported from countries with questionable welfare standards. This creates an impossible situation in which farmers are forced to sell “better quality” higher welfare meat at minimal profit.
Trust me – I have no blinkers on as I would struggle to do my job otherwise.

And regarding your last comment, can I ask what make you qualified to completely reject my opinions?

Whilst this is an important topic that needs careful consideration and INFORMED debate, the your ill informed emotional rantings are doing nothing to help your cause

So taking an animal, keeping it in unnatural light, feeding it growth hormones, then injecting it with antibiotics to stop the infections because of increasing its yield is not cruel in anyway whatsoever?!

If you actually read my post, the use of growth hormones is BANNED in the EU so couldn’t possibly be used. And if you honestly think farmer randomly use expensive antibiotics just in case the cow gets an infection you are sadly mistaken – cows in a well run profitable enterprise, will be monitored closely and treated for disease WHEN Necessary. Would you rather no drugs were used and infections were left to fester?

Natural? Well around where I live, the cows are free to wander around lush green meadows eating healthy grass. I’ll take that over the dire conditions you are advocating any day thanks.

Do you see many cows out eating lush pasture at this time of year? No, because there is no grass growth and they would turn any field into mush within hours. They are HOUSED for a good 3-4 months of the year and looked after indoors, away from the elements.

All I can do is suggest that you take a step back from your utopian ideal world and actually think about what really happens in life. The fact remains that if a cow was “Unhappy” or “creully treated” it wouldn’t produce sufficient milk to be provfitable.

LHS – you really do believe everything you read dont you?

Unless they are exposed to high levels of artificial light, fed grain and injected with growth hormones! – but they wouldn’t be that cruel would they?

Artificial light won’t count for diddly squat if a cow is uncomfortable or unhealthy. You ask any Dairyman worth his salt and he will tell you that the first sign a cow is ill is a reduction in the amount of milk she is producing. No matter what you think about farming, it’s financial suicide to keep unhealthy cows.
And again. the use of growth hormones are banned in the EU – another reason to stick with UK food & produce!

are you saying that if you put any animal or human in conditions that are unnatural and cruel they won’t be happy?

Nope, what I’m saying is the type of enterprise you’re current debating isn’t cruel. And define “natural” when discussing the average high yielding dairy cow – I don’t see many in the wild and they would struggle to survive.

LHS

Perhaps we should keep you in the same conditions and see if you are still smiling.

That anthropomorphic comment is exactly the type of thing I’m talking about. I would imaging if we buried you in a closed network of muddy, damp, light-free tunnels you’d be very upset, but it keep ants happy. Extreme example I know but equally in-comparable.

Whilst I don’t really agree with these large scale units, as is typical with this type of thing, there is an awful lot of hysteria and over-emotive rubbish spouted about them, including that quoted above.

In response to the 3 quotes given by lifer,

Gigantic sheds, housing thousands of ‘battery’ cows which have little or no access to grazing and are milked a gruelling three times a day, producing milk that could have fewer nutrients.

Cows can’t be “battery” reared as, if they’re not comfortable and healthy, they won’t produce milk. As for milking 3 type a day being “grueling”, the more often a cow is milked the more comfortable it will be as it relieves pressure from the udder – many systems rely on the cow voluntarily going to be milked by machines.

vast factory-like milk production systems where cows are housed in seemingly endless sheds surrounded by manure-filled lagoons, fly infestations and row upon row of female heifer calf crates.

Yes they are large units, and yes there are large slurry pits on site but the cows themselves are kept in clean, fresh stalls and are free to roam around them if they wish – cows are generally quite lazy creatures, spending the vast majority of their time lying down eating/sleeping/chewing cud – it’s how they work. The conditions are potentially better than a lot of “traditional” units.
For their own welfare, cows are routinely housed for several months over winter in the UK as it is.
The heifer crates spoken about are illegal in this country and therefore couldn’t be used.

children having to drink bottled water to avoid the nitrate poisoning in their own well, residents unable to barbecue or play outside because of the swarms of biting flies, and streams clogged with nitrate-thriving algae

That I can’t really comment on but it is my understanding that regulations have to be pretty tight on these sorts of things and punishments are already high for any farm found to be contaminating water supplies etc.

I dropped my Touch in the bath for about 2 seconds and it never really recovered. Sorry 🙁

Appreciate all the hard work you guys are putting in. It makes you realise how well the place works normally I guess 🙂

Yeah – t’was a good epidsode. A bit patchy but still good coverage. You’ve got to feel sory for the lad – having to move to California for the Winter coz of all that nasty Welsh snow 😉

About turn? 😉

Oops! I won’t comment further!

😀 Excellent

I blame STW – they’ve nicked them! 😯

Realman – you clearly need help 😉

I like my Planet X though – looks better in the flesh than on photos 🙂

What you saying about the Planet X headtube then? Nowt wrong with Planet X you know! 😉

Just posted on the 2nd PSA for this but great original PSA Bigbob – just spend a bucket load 😯

To the OP – Damn you! I’ve just spent a fortune!!!

Well, not really but I did get some bargains – XT shifters, Muck off kit, Outland lock-ons……ffs even the Torque bars/Gels were half price 😯

Nice PSA by the way 🙂

Edit: Still the odd nice bit of kit in Wolverhampton when I left (shoes, Alien 2, Chainsets etc)

the angle grinder approach has yet to be tried, do let me know how you get on.

You’re a nasty evil man! 😉

Yeah – I noticed that too. Might pop down to the Wollyhampton store later and see what’s left…

Have a look on the “STW are evil scum” thread rant – there’s some more contact numbers on there 🙂 .

I think they’re a bit snowed under at the mo by the sounds of it.