Scotland has bred some great politicians. For instance Gordon Brown and Tony Blair.

If iScotland wants a share of banknotes then that is fine. It just doesn’t get the rUK as a lender of last resort.

As for a devo max, that would have been a good solution but it was not offered.

Was it even asked for? Didn’t the SNP campaign for an independence referendum and not devo max? In the event of a no vote devo max needs to provide benefits to Scotland and the rUK. If it doesn’t then it shouldn’t happen, Scots should take into account that they might not get devo max and vote accordingly in the independence referendum.

The negotiations will not start until independence Ben. You are quick to talk down Westminster but think nothing of AS misleading the people of Scotland.

He just isn’t prepared to share his plan B with the people of Scotland so they can make an informed decision about independence.

The majority of Scots do care about what currency they will use though. In a poll earlier in the year it was the third most important issue raised by Scots. So rather than AS fooling BT it looks like he is really trying to fool his fellow Scots into thinking that they will still be using the pound after independence.

Reasons why it does not make sense for the UK to enter into a currency union with iScotland.

1. Scotland is not our biggest trading partner.
2. The three biggest parties have ruled it out.
3. The public have ruled it out.

There is no need to debate this one any further.

133 pages and we are still going around in circles.

Yes Scotland can use the pound after independence. It can’t force the rUK to be the lender of last resort though. After independence Scotland stops paying tax to the UK so it no longer has the right to use the Bank of England as lender of last resort.
If you get independence good luck and all the best. More likely is that we will still be together and then a devo-max thread will start and we will all be at it again just on a slightly different topic.

A UKIP leaning UK? Next you will be saying there is an independence leaning Scotland. 😉

If you have nukes someone else cannot nuke you. If you don’t have nukes someone can nuke you. Is that not simple to understand? We lived under threat of nuclear war with the USSR for a long time. There are an increasing number of countries that have nukes or are trying to get them. Until we can all agree to get rid of nukes together it is simply not safe to do so. I personally would not want to be relying on the US or France to provide our nuclear deterrent.

Ben in the same way that they helped in the cold war they provide a deterrent. We can stand up to other nuclear powers without the threat of annihilation. If the UK has no nukes then the majority of Europe is left relying on France and the US for a nuclear deterrent. I hate all weapons, wars, violence etc but I would not want us to be the first to lay down all of our arms, there is just too much conflict in the world. I appreciate that it might seem unfair that Scotland has to host the nukes for the UK.

We don’t even need nuclear weapons any more. Well apart from a resurgent Russia annexing countries in Europe and flying nuclear bombers towards the UK. Then there are the Iranians enriching uranium, oh and the Syrians were at it as well until the Israelis dealt with them. Lets not forget North Korea, and then there is China and the problems in the South China sea. But apart from that the world is a very peaceful place and we can bin our nukes.

THM I couldn’t agree more with your last line, Scotland and the rUK deserve a lot better than the drivel that has been spouted by both the yes and no campaigns. The yes campaign should be doing a lot better as they have been working towards this point for a long time.

THM – Salmond actually wrote to Fred Goodwin offering his praise for the ABN deal, can he really be trusted to run a country with his obviously flawed judgement?

On a more serious note ernie.
As a society we have turned logic, commonsense, and economic justice, upside down, as we reward staggering levels of failure and incompetence with multimillion pound bonuses, golden handshakes and golden hellos, and we happily allow the super rich to fill their pockets and boots, while everyone else has to tighten their belts.
Were you writing about Alec Salmond because didn’t he praise Fred Goodwin when RBS took over ABN? A deal that broke RBS and seriously dented the UK economy.

That is right ernie all those rich and successful people should all stop being so rich and successful and then that means all of the money they would have got would go to the poor people instead because they would suddenly learn how to be successful. Those pesky middle classes might try to get their hands on the money though so we also need them to be less rich and successful as well to ensure that the money only goes to the poor. How about we ban education for all children and in one generation we will have a level playing field of idiots all as unsuccessful and poor as one another! At least the rich won’t be rich any more.

Ben just for balance the majority of Scots do not share your views on independence and do indeed think that the UK is OK.

The richest 1% already had more money than they could spend. The poorest 1% will have greatly benefited from the 70% wage increase. The fact that you can’t see that shows just how out of touch with reality nats are. It is no wonder that the majority of people in Scotland do not want independence.

So what if they are? If everybody else is better off as well what is the problem? Why focus on the top 1% when the poorest 1% are 70% better off. Typical negative nat tactics.

Why the fascination with top earners doing so well when the poorest 1% are seeing a 70% increase in wages and that is inflation adjusted as well. Would the figures only have been acceptable if the richest had seen their wages fall? The figures show that everyone is better off in the UK since 1986. No doubt some negative nat will be along to put a negative spin on these figures.

Pay inequality??? More nat lies. How about this from the ONS.

In April 2011, the average full-time employee in the UK earned around £12.62 per hour excluding overtime, a cash increase of 226% since 1986 when the average wage was £3.87 per hour. After adjusting for price increases over that time, full-time employees were on average 62% better off in 2011 than in 1986.
Generally the higher earners did better, with the top 1% having the biggest increase between 1986 and 2011, at 117%. The top 10% saw an increase of 81%, while the bottom 10% had a 47% increase. Those at the very bottom did better, with the bottom 1% having a 70% increase.
Over the period since 1998 – in other words, since the introduction of the National Minimum Wage – those at the very bottom end of the earnings distribution have done best, with the bottom 1% having a real increase of 51%, compared with an increase of 30% for the top 1%.

So the rich have been getting richer but so has everyone else.

I don’t understand why people get so upset about a bit of trail erosion in the peaks. We should have a dig up there and put some jumps and berms in. In my opinion walkers shouldn’t even be on bridleways.

high5 zero give me explosive diarrhoea, I tend to avoid them.

The lightweight jackets are excellent and easily fit into a pocket until needed. They are superlight weight though and would not keep you dry in a heavy downpour. You could always waterproof them using nikwax tx direct.

Make sure your you ironed your underpants as well wimp.

I guess an independent Scotland might need help with the Russian planes and boats that keep approaching it.

Common sense would then dictate that it would be in the rest of the UK’s best interests to happily let Scotland leave the union if we are a drain on the resources of the whole.
It is therefore illogical for the three main parties to be so vociferous against the idea.

Public spending per head is higher in Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. While Scotland can and does pay it’s way this is not the case for Wales and N. Ireland. There is no public support in England to seek independence from the other countries and instead there is a redistribution of wealth to the less wealthy parts of the UK.

I now see what Salmond admires about Putin, they both like threatening European countries. He is a dictator in the making, threatening to block EU countries from Scottish waters should Scotland lose it’s EU status. He is also still spouting on about a currency union with the UK, that hilariously the majority of Scots still think is on the table despite being told otherwise. Are people not embarrassed to have voted for the man?

It does only work one way and that is because of the air of superiority that all English people have. On the other hand it could be a feeling of inferiority that some Scots feel around the English.

It is actually spelt generalisations, or after independence are you planning on using American English just like you are supposedly going to use the pound? I did read the reply from Stef and dismissed it as pedantry, at least junkyard is getting into the spirit of things.

Wrong again Duckman my exact words were “Scots only dislike Cameron because he sounds so English that you can’t bare it”. I have provided proof that some Scots are Racist towards English people, the link above says it is as high as 1 in 3 English people living in Scotland have faced discrimination, face it you have a problem up there. Blair was born in Scotland he is your I am afraid whether you like it or not. I also suggest you look up the difference between exaggerate and generalise. I will leave the generalisations to you being as you are so good at it.

Duckman the original statement was asking why Cameron is loathed when he has done less damage to the UK than the two previous Scottish PMs Brown and Blair. As is often the case the question was avoided. So English people have a sense of superiority, it is generalisations like this that are the basis for all forms of racism. 1 in 3 English living in Scotland suffer racial abuse.

I would never refer to a Scottish person as a sweaty or a jock. However it is undeniable that there is anti-English feeling in Scotland. Here is some proof. I don’t condone the names that some English people use to refer to Scots and I am sure you would not condone the violence against English people by some Scots. For the record the line about “Cameron sounding so English that you can’t bare it” was a wind up, did it touch a raw nerve? 😉

Hey duckman I am merely pointing out the casually racist attitude displayed by a lot of Scots towards English people.

Ben your original statement was “Most big companies who have expressed an opinion have said that independence will make little or no difference and they’re not going to take a position” and now I have got you to admit that “I’m not saying there are no big companies against independence”, closer to the truth is that big companies have indeed expressed concerns about independence. So lets have a look at your list

BAE – yes, big surprise they don’t like the idea. OK so you agree there.
Shell – said they’re equally worried about Scottish independence and the UK EU referendum. the fact that they are worried about the EU in no way means they are not worried about Scottish independence.
BP – stated that the company was impartial and Bob Dudley was expressing a personal opinion. Bob Dudley is the CEO of BP his personal opinion is based on his experience working at BP, the points he makes about the EU and currency are hardly minor concerns.
Standard Life – just making contingency plans, company has made it clear they’re impartial. Moving your headquarters is hardly “little or no difference”
RBS – based on the idea they might have to move their HQ* See previous response.
Weir – a company that’s been fined for trying to bribe dictators. See BAE. That doesn’t mean that they are not a big company with concerns about independence.

However you try to spin this your original statement was incorrect.

Gordimhor while Ernie may have said “none of this represents a ringing endorsement by the CBI for an independent Scotland” I most certainly did not. Are you trying to imply that because the CBI is now not actively campaigning against independence that they are endorsing it?

Ben you originally said “Most big companies who have expressed an opinion have said that independence will make little or no difference and they’re not going to take a position” to which I replied with a list of companies that have expressed a concern about independence. My point was that your comment was not based on fact and I challenged your point and provided evidence to back up my argument. So I am not “using companies making contingency plans (as all companies do) as a criticism of independence” I am merely using the statements made by these companies to back up my argument, there is no criticism of independence.
However I disagree that the companies are just making contingencies and it would indeed seem that your original statement was in fact totally wrong. Here are some quotes from the articles.

In his strategic review Ian King, chief executive, said: “In September 2014, Scotland will hold an independence referendum. The decision on independence from the UK is a matter for the people of Scotland.
However, BAE Systems has significant interests and employees in Scotland, and it is clear that continued union offers greater certainty and stability for our business”
“In its annual results last month RBS said: “A vote in favour of Scottish independence would be likely to significantly impact the group’s credit ratings and could also impact the fiscal, monetary, legal and regulatory landscape to which the group is subject.”
“Mr Dudley said: “We have a lot of people in Scotland, we’ve got a lot of investments in Scotland. I don’t know … there’s much debate about what would happen with the currency and of course whether there would be connections with Europe or not.”
“Standard Life, which has nearly 4 million customers in the UK and 5,000 employees in Scotland, said it would take “whatever action necessary” to protect its business, including moving its operations to England”
“One of Scotland’s largest companies, Weir Group, believes that independence will “guarantee” higher costs for business but produce few and uncertain benefits”
It would appear that big companies think independence will make a difference and that they are worried by the prospect of independence.

Most big companies who have expressed an opinion have said that independence will make little or no difference and they’re not going to take a position.

Your at it again Ben! Personal opinion not fact!

BAE latest company to come out against Scottish independence
Shell joins business chorus against Scottish independence
BP chief Bob Dudley attacks Scottish independence
Standard Life could quit Scotland if voters back independence
RBS fears ‘material’ risk from Scottish independence
Scottish independence will bring ‘guaranteed’ costs, warns Weir Group

It was mentioned in the context of why the CBI might be against independence, so not really pointless.

The CBI likes to be portrayed as an impartial body, but it’s hard to be impartial on independence when your Scottish chairman profits from nuclear weapons on the Clyde.

It was CBI UK that made the decision to campaign against independence not CBI Scotland. You imply that CBI UK made this decision not based on reason but because someone from CBI Scotland is connected to Faslane, this is again your own personal opinion and not a fact. You use the phrase “might be against independence”, it either is or it isn’t Ben, you use a very tenuous link between Faslane, CBI Scotland and CBI UK to back up your argument so again you are wrong and it is still pointless I am afraid. 😳

The world according to Ben cooper part 3

Damn that Ernie and his facts. I will have to draft a response

The chairman of CBI Scotland is the MD of Babcock’s marine division, who operate Faslane. As if the loons will be clever if enough to work out the difference between CBI UK and CBI Scotland when it is really CBI UK that is doing a u-turn so mentioning the CBI scotland MD is pointless.

Oh, and “we’ve taken legal advice” is a stock phrase, along with the “it was a junior member of staff” line they’re trying to play. What’s much more likely is that the rush of broadcasters and other bodies to leave the CBI wasn’t exactly brilliant publicity. Well I don’t have any facts to prove Ernie wrong so a good dose of personal opinion should shut him up! Salmond never uses facts so why should I?

The world according to Ben Cooper part 2

Why should I bother accepting the views of the three main UK parties and the will of the UK people? The SNP have said a currency union will happen so it is definitely going to happen and anyone that says otherwise is a bully, bluffer or blusterer. Why won’t the scadges from the south realise they are too wee, too poor and too stupid to exist without a currency union with an independent Scotland.