Do you think starmer is in full view and statesmanlike though?
If you take those off your list which I would then there isn’t a lot left considering what’s going on outside the window

Great plan Jon, keep your vision a secret, hide in the shadows while the world needs leaders and pinch a win from under their noses👍

Hiding in the shadows isn’t a great look. Wakey,wakey people the shit has already hit the fan.
Starmer needs to suck up bad press and get his vision out there, this is not a time to be scared of the old media powers. Make some media waves and make some serious noise.
Sunak has become relevant off the back of a couple of TV statements, before you know it he will become the face of the new PM.

I wouldn’t rule out the pedals, put your rattlers on to check👍

Faerie, you can come and go as you please👍 I’m fairly sure we have crossed wires anyway, I guess we all have an agenda, i think you and others are deliberately misrepresenting complicated and limited stats to support your agenda, overall the peel report does not support your position so you quote snippets to misrepresent it. I want to dig deeper into those stats to have a better understanding of why the headline grabbing disproportionately is going on.
You and others are saying ‘look disproportionately the police force are racist’ but those stats and independent report do not support that view.

County lines drug gangs are a major problem, they target deprived areas to groom vulnerable youngsters into an ultra violent brazen drug dealing lifestyle with no fear of prison. deprived areas become bigger hotspots for serious crime (this isn’t anything like selling a bit of weed, it’s resource draining violent organised gang crime and happening in sleepy towns) What do we find in those deprived areas.. a demographic that is a million miles from the 80% white numbers of the UK, if the majority of stop searches are happening in the deprived areas then suddenly the headline disproportionately has dramatically shrunk or vanished.
If you just take a moment to consider how the London demographic figures (80% of stop search) would skew the balance, then take it a step further and consider how stop searches in Lambeth (with 3 in 5 identifying as other than white) surely you can see that the UK demographic figures are irrelevant in this context. (Police force racism not societal inequality)

Faerie, Out of those 375000 stop searches, 300k were in London so why is the UK figure for ethnicity being used as any relevant measure? We need more localised data..
Your poverty link increases the possibility that stop searches will be focused in deprived areas where once again ethnicity will be a million miles from the UK figures.
The figures are not comprehensive so no one should be making accusations without more localised data. Exactly what the peel report stated!

Faerie, yes you have completely misunderstood👍 moving swiftly on…
Thanks for the link regarding poverty, that was exactly my point.

Do you have any data on ethnicity in these deprived areas and the stop/search taking place there and specific areas of those boroughs?
Then we can look at disproportionate stop search on a more relevant scale.

Faerie, that is quite a bizarre summary of the peel report. I hope you read it and didn’t just read the guardian bit👍.
The report states that a lot more information is required to understand why disproportionate stop/search is happening. If we then slip back to your other point and consider poverty in certain areas then I think we would see a very different set of numbers compared to UK wide ethnicity figures.
As you know you will see a completely disproportionate mix of people in poor parts of big towns/cities compared to UK wide figures.
More data needed on a much smaller scale.

Absolutely edukator, it’s not a one cap fits all but if the profiling starts to add up then the beady eye of the law will take a look.

Ethnicity seems relevant in certain situations just like age or the way you dress, speak, look, location, vehicle, actions, response etc etc, then take into account every officers interpretation of those points and what they then think looks iffy or worth a word.
Being an all-round good policeman has to be one of the hardest jobs there is so if we are arguing for much better training then yeah, definitely. Many of my stops were absolutely escalated by aggressive policing.
If we’re trying to use complicated stats and situations to call the police force racist then nah. It’s way more complicated than that imo.

Inkster, the thread drift seemed relevant and imo that encapsulates the complexity of the wider discussion. You didn’t mention anything to the others for implying their anecdotes were more honest than the fair and reasonable accounts from real officers (is that your bias I wonder). I was just throwing my anecdotes in to back up the officers versions having lived in rural hum drum and had those experiences. You then asked me if I’ve been stopped on a Sunday while visiting me mam, so I gave you my answer.
Now your saying I can’t claim equivalence. I wasn’t!

If we get to a place with real random stop and search efforts then the norms are absolutely going to get caught up in being stopped on a Sunday afternoon visiting their mums. The drug gangs operating locally are young and brazen beyond anything I have ever known. Current fad is to stab the victim in the backside to leave them needing colostomy bags. Should police bias be used in those situations? Regardless of who the perpetrators are or are you just looking for stats that show unequivocal fairness.
10 teenagers stab someone but we need equal stop and search on all types to prove we’re not being ageist.

Inkster, I think we were discussing rural police night work. A couple of people used anecdotes to say nonsense, I’ve used mine to say-very much my experience.

The Butler case on it’s own isn’t of much interest to me to be honest because of the issues with the detail. I’m more interested in the conversation that this had drifted into. I have absolutely been stopped in the middle of the day fyi, for all sorts of bizarre reasons, definitely due to stereotyping and bias, they weren’t funny at the time and I’m sure the po-po didn’t find it funny either but looking back I can see the funny side (well just tales from the past really, some might find them funny others not so, funny is an opinion I guess)

Are you happy for bias and stereotyping to be used in police work? That seems to be the crux of it to me. You seem to be saying people driving on Sunday afternoon and visiting mums should not be stopped which would be a form of bias that Crims would quickly work out.

Anecdotally, the local area has a big problem with county lines drug running and the faces on the frontline are disproportionately black and young so surely this is going to be reflected in police bias regarding stop and search.

Inequality in our society has led them to that front line but that’s for courts and wider society to deal with. Police just have to catch Crims asap

I’ve been stopped a fair few times along the lines of the police posts in this thread. We knew that if you were seen floating around after hours the po-po were likely to have a word. It was better to move your stash in the daily work traffic :-) Rural hum drum area.
Stopped on late night bike rides
Stopped on way home from clubs numerous times with one of those involving everyone out of the car and having minor search of car and pockets
A friend lived on a rough road so constant ‘friendly’ questioning + another minor search after mentioning what address I had just left.
The more I think back the more occasions are springing to mind
Lot’s of funny stories to tell.
It was definitely a thing (rural night police work) back in my day and my son has already been stopped twice in the middle of the night and he’s only been driving 2 years
The stops all revolved around stereotyping or bias of one sort or another.

It’s such a complex problem, in some circumstances ‘types’ of people are disproportionately involved in criminal activity. why can’t the police use that bias for police work? The crims had green hair so green hairies were disproportionately stopped type of thing.

Averages are certainly skewed but give a general idea of historic shifts.
It’s far from black and white with inflation and interest rates also having a considerable effect
Between 1997 and 2007 average house prices tripled, the big boom that never went bust.

Hobnob, your numbers look a bit orf.
Average wage in 1980 was around £6000
Average house price in 1980 was around £21000
You’ve used the average house price for the decade against the 1980 wage

1985 average house price 30k
1985 average wage 9.5k

1990 average house price 60k
1990 average wage 15k

Interest rates in the 80s were hefty though so percentage of wage spent on mortgage should also apply.

Some interesting posts here, not the offensive bigotry btw. Why stw allow the hate speech on their pages is always beyond me, it is completely against stw rules and ethos, it has become so normal here that it’s as if people don’t even see it,which is exactly what happens when you allow hate to fester. People rant about tabloids spreading hate while spreading hate on a modern form of media.

Back to the op, it’s complicated, basic natural instincts, media consumption, tribalism, education infrastructure, immigration, aspiration, oneupmanship, fear of rocking the boat, many are living very good lives and don’t want it to be worse, trust, personality politics, a want to rock the boat, nothing changes, etc etc.

It’s okay to vote for whoever you like and you + your reasons should be respected. Everyone is a part of the solution/problem from beginning to end, you can’t go around pointing fingers then stop when it suits.

Scuttler, you do realise you’ve just insulted most of the regulars 😁

Dannyh, that’s all I ask👍 in fact it is what the forum rules require😁

Dannyh, We can agree to disagree but cut out the insults and goading it spoils the thread👍

I’ve linked the gov guidance tj, read it👍 plenty of scope for a bit of interpretation in there.

Ajantom, step away from the keyboard.
Frankconway, now you know how I feel👍

The childcare excuse might well be made up and guessing there will be more to come in the next few days. Important to remember they are frontline workers who potentially had to make a tricky decision regarding a 4 year old. I think we should be fair regardless of who’s neck is on the chopping block.
If the daily mail brigade are unhappy then I’m not going to cry about that👍

Pondo, it has been argued by half the world for months that UK guidance isn’t clear at all. Now when it suits it’s clear and unequivocal.
Gov guidance
It is clear to me that it allows an element of common sense and interpretation which is what I have been doing and what I would encourage those who can to do. If you cannot see past staying at home for safety then do that but I won’t be and neither of us are in the wrong.

Kimbers. Sshh with the bollox nonsense, this happens all the time on here, if you don’t agree fine you don’t need to throw your weight about to prove simething. I interpret the guidelines as a whole.
Childcare allows flexibility on the part you’ve chosen. Yes you’re forgiven but sort it out mister.

Dannyh. You seem to be trying to insult me and if I return the favour then where does it end. Take a break and chill

I don’t believe everything in the papers, no. I guess there will be more to come so interested to see the next episode.
Nobody really knows how the virus will effect them, many have been well on the mend then ended up at deaths door or dead, so makes sense to see the bigger picture regardless of how your feeling especially with a young child relying on you.
My trusted family would support my decision regarding childcare, it would be a difficult choice but with the option to be close just in case makes some sense.

Dannyh, Shhh matey, just stop it.

Futureboy77. That’s for you to decide, that isn’t how I would interpret the guidelines at all.
Potentially giving my 4 year old to the nearest family member regardless of their suitability to be a stand in parent sounds absolutely bonkers to me.

The guidelines allow us to make different choices without one being right and the other being wrong. Trusting people to apply their version of common sense

More cash.
I would be choosy about which family members I left our young’un with and I would personally drive from one end of country to the other to make sure she was happy while believing that was essential and within the guidelines regarding childcare.

Kelvin. The NZ health minister had a demotion but still kept on and he was just going for a play on the beach not worried about his children, every example is slightly different, not sure what calderwoods reasons were, did it ever get reported. I wanted sturgeon to do a jacinda on that one too but if she had no story then no way out

The problem is that the vague rules here allowed people some common sense application which is good for progressive politics but bad if people don’t apply it on your terms.

Futureboy77, I don’t think Dom was ill at the time, just covering the bases in case things took a turn for the worse. I would be worried about our youngster being left on their Tod so can empathise with the concern. I haven’t locked myself in my room though so guess others feel cheated even though our lockdown has been vague.

Dannyh. Shhh.

😁 yes yes the implied insults roll in if you have a different opinion.

You can’t defend someone without being a supporter type of thing, that’s just not logical for me and certainly won’t lead to a better type of politics imo.

No. He was going out for a play👍
He wasn’t concerned that he might get hospitalised so took his 4 year old to be close to trusted family (a slightly more difficult decision than going to play on the beach I reckon)

Kelvin, no, I didn’t have to make that decision.

Dom wasn’t going on his hollibobs, the media circus has ramped this right up but as of yet I can’t see this is as dramatic as people want it to be.
Jacinda Ardern in NZ was praised for her common sense approach for dealing with the health minister and his story was basically ‘i was off for a jolly (twice)’

On this occasion I think bozzer has done the right thing, people have lost their heads completely so gov need to rise above the noise. To be fair I’ve been applying common sense to all sorts of family situations since the vague lockdown began.
Will be interesting to see what pics turn up tomorrow, the trap is set now.

We had a very similar exp. Right down to the celebratory ride around and breakdown 😢.
Ours turned out to be a simple issue but still cost a few hundred. Seller paid half 👍

It looks about 50/50 in here, I think I want to see big Dom stick it out unless there is more to this.
It’s a crazy media frenzy over nothing imo. Bonkers.

The obvious failure to lead by example might not sound important but it kind of is in the end.

If we remove the panto villain from the story for a moment, now replace with NHS staff. Is it still an obvious failure to lead by example?
A couple working on the frontline in the middle of a global pandemic potentially caught the virus and decided to take their 4 year old to their parents just in case the worst happened.
Yeah, let’s burn them we don’t want that sort in politics.

Hello.
Now turnaround and run away very quickly, it won’t end well, it never ends well 😢

It is a storm in a teacup though, po-po had a word, slap on the wrist, job done. If we want normal people involved in politics further down the line, we need to try not to be over dramatic just cause we don’t like the panto villain.

Yes I agree with Dan, the headline figure of daily reported cases are actually spread across a huge timeframe, most are from the last 2 weeks but some go as far back as Feb. English confirmed cases have been below 1500 per day for some time and look on course for around 500 per day this week.
Is that the same system used in other countries though?

Note- The gov.uk graph only covers England as data isn’t available for rest of UK.

It was a simple question requiring simple clarification.

Clearly you werent upto the job without sounding like an obnoxious dick

It was a very simple question so I guessed you were trolling, sorry 👍