Maybe this is what happens when you combine an expert lunatic with a luna space programme :

Well NASA focuses on Luna issues, and Trump focuses on lunatic issues. They’re both experts in their field.

Whichever way you look at it it’s a badly worded tweet, but I assumed he was claiming that NASA was too focused on again going to the moon and back, which was done 50 years ago, and should be focused instead on using the moon more as a relay to Mars. Which by all accounts is already NASA’s plan anyway, so a daft comment from that point of view.

If I could walk that way I wouldn’t need talcum powder.

Presumably not just any idiot, but an idiot so talented that he became President of the wealthiest and most powerful nation on Earth.

An idiot who wants his idiocity to extend from Earth, to the Moon, to Mars.

In the noble quest for other idiot life forms perhaps?

Ernie – what do you say to this idea that is continually expressed on here that Corbyn has taken labour policy into the realms of the hard left?

I assume that you asking the question because you know the answer TJ!

It is very difficult for the Tories, those in the Conservative Party, New Labour, and the LibDems, to attack Corbyn on specific individual policies. We know that from the result of the 2017 general election.

Up until the 2017 general election campaign Labour support, according to all the opinion polls, had collapsed. The clear evidence was that Corbyn had been successfully vilified in the press and media, and if a general election was to be called Labour would suffer a crushing defeat at the hands of the Tories who would win a staggering landslide victory. That indeed was precisely why Teresa May called an early election, ie, the outcome was apparently guaranteed.

What actually happened, as we all now know, was that instead of Labour electoral armageddon Labour’s share of the vote increased by more than any time since the end of World War 2 and the Conservatives lost their parliamentary majority.

So what the **** happened? Well under strictly enforced electoral rules Labour/Corbyn had to be afforded a fair and equal share of broadcasters output. This led to not only to Corbyn being given the opportunity to discuss his policies but for the policies themselves to come under intense scrutiny.

The result was that Corbyn’s policies were found to resonate with a huge swathe of British public opinion, including in fact some Tory voters. You can in fact see the sudden change in the opinion polls when the Labour Party’s 2017 election manifesto was first leaked to the press, after that Labour’s share in the opinion polls steadily rose.

The general election of 2017 is now but a distance memory and Corbyn is once again attacked on a daily basis for being hard left. Plus with the now newly added extra ingredient of also being a racist who hates Jews. The number one priority is that Corbyn should not be allowed to talk about his policies, especially as they will be once again limited in that goal when the next general election campaign is declared.

On the specific question of how left-wing Corbyn’s policies are, well the policies of Harold Macmillan’s governments were significantly more left-wing than those proposed by Corbyn. Which of course beggars the question how hard-left were Macmillan’s governments? I’ll let you decide on that one.

Whilst I am generally supportive of Corbyn as the alternatives are simply too horrendous imo, I do consider him to be a bit too right-wing for the radical changes which I believe the UK requires.

BTW have I ever mentioned that Harold Macmillan (sometimes referred to as Harold Macmillian the council house builder) was the greatest Tory Prime Minister ever had?

He’s had 6 hours & he still hasn’t deleted it

You would have to be incredibly daft and gullible (ironically like your stereotypical Trump supporter) to genuinely believe that Trump doesn’t know the difference between the Moon and Mars.

If you accept that Trump knows the difference but want to mock him because he didn’t specifically refer to the Moon space mission and the Mars space mission, and instead just said Moon and Mars, then it makes you look childish, petty, and more interested in school yard taunting than serious politics.

So perhaps Trump didn’t delete his admittedly clumsily worded tweet because he wanted to expose his detractors as daft and childish.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/moon-to-mars/overview

I think the fact that it was an area that was controlled by the Vichy French. Not their proudest moment.

That sounds fairly insulting. The British Expeditionary Forces were unable to stop the German advance and had to retreat to a country surrounded by sea, I’ve never heard Dunkirk described as ‘not their proudest moment’. On 4 June 1940 Churchill gave a speech to the nation in which he declared “We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender”. I have never heard the surrender of the Channel Islands 16 days later, without a single shot being fired or any sort of resistance, as ‘not their proudest moment’.

Yes France couldn’t stop the German advance and it led to the Nazis setting up a Fascist puppet government in Vichy, as they did in other occupied countries. But I see no reason why France should be any more shamed of what happened in WW2 than Britain. I’ll remind you once again that by the end of WW2 the Allies included one and a quarter million French troops, which I reckon probably makes that the second largest volunteer army in WW2 after India.

When I lived in France the anniversary of the Allied Invasion of Southern France was a fairly big news item. There was no suggestion that people should feel anything other than pride when it came on the Telly. Of course that was a long time ago and things might well have changed. Perhaps WW2 isn’t discussed so much these days. Perhaps WW2 isn’t generally discusses much these days right across Europe. That might in part explain the rise of the far-right across Europe.

Only a couple of days ago someone challenged me on whether WW2 was actually a struggle against racism and bigotry. It’s unlikely, to say the least, that WW2 would have happened had the Nazis not been totally driven by the belief of their racial superiority and the inferiority of others. To question that fact suggests a lack of understanding concerning WW2.

BTW, on the question of Vichy France, the smug europhiles on here should perhaps remember that they owe a debt of gratitude to Vichy France.

I was never gone binners, just incommunicado*. I still followed the forum of sorts, including of course the great EU thread. It’s amazing how a dozen or so totally committed individuals have managed to keep that thread alive for so many years. All credit to you binners, your daily rants have played no small part in that. And of course you’ve never stopped posting those 2 hilarious stills from The Life of Brian. Oh how I have laughed, please never ever stop posting them. I’m sure you never will.

* It was seeing the very sad news of Bullhearts passing away which prompted me to re-register so that I could post my tribute on that thread. Despite never meeting him I found his determination inspirational. I cycled down to his funeral as a mark of respect.

Once re-registered it was easy to post the odd comment, too easy I guess. But not easy enough that I want to engage in that much discourse. If you know what I mean brav.

NHS budgets doubled under Blair. How’s Corbyn doing?

It’s all well and good for £billions of the NHS budget to go into the coffers of private contractors hungry for profit, but how much of it went into patient care? Personally I would prefer if it was all of it.

The NHS was created to make people healthier, not wealthier. A point which Blair seems apparently to have forgotten.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-funding-pfi-contracts-hospitals-debts-what-is-it-rbs-a7134881.html

“The NHS has more than 100 PFI hospitals. The original cost of these 100 institutions was around £11.5bn. In the end, they will cost the public purse nearly £80bn.”

And I think you might be exaggerating Corbyn’s magic capabilities. Yes, in his first general election he did increase Labour’s share of the vote by more than Blair ever managed to do, but I’ll remind you that Blair also didn’t do anything for the NHS between 1994 and 1997. He didn’t even manage, during that period, to burden it with massive and crippling PFI debts.

The taxpayers paid for Tony Blair’s huge generosity to private contractors, they are still paying for it now, and they will continue to pay for it for many years to come. So I would temper your enthusiasm and suggest somewhat more muted celebrations.

Mmm, I find the figures confusing. A quick search suggests 50,000 Germans troops on actual D-Day, whilst apparently there were 85,000 Germans on the first day of Operation Dragoon. The figures for Allied Troops on D-Day appear to be 156,000 soldiers and 151,000 soldiers (plus 75,000 French Resistance) on the first day of Operation Dragoon.

I can’t seem to find the casualty figures for the first day of Operation Dragoon (10,000+ for D-Day 4,414 confirmed dead) Presumably the lower total causalities for Operation Dragoon was in part at least because it only lasted 1 month as opposed to Operation Overlord which lasted nearly 3 months.

I agree about no films though. And as I say, that it was less significant. I just struggle to believe that was that much less significant that practically no one this side of the Channel has heard of it.

I hate to say it but I suspect the truth is that the preferred narrative in Britain is that France had little to do with the liberation of Europe, despite that fact that by the end of WW2 France had 1,250,000 troops, all of them volunteers, and 212,000 military dead (24,000 in the Resistance). I felt that this narrative was yet again being subliminally suggested this D-Day commemoration. Or is it paranoia on my part?

Why thank you. And it’s good to be back in polite company.

I would be interested to know why almost no one in the UK knows about the Allied invasion of Southern France on 15 August, less than six weeks after D-Day. I understand that it involved a similar amount of men.

Sure, it wasn’t quite as significant as D-Day, but was it really that much less significant that practically no one in the UK should know about it?

I’m shocked to discover that you don’t agree with me outofbreath.

Obviously Jeremy is the only person in the land that is capable of bringing the entire country together, so with refusing and requesting to meet trump will appeal to everyone.

A cunning plan if ever there was one!

Which is EXACTLY the same position as the leader of the Liberal Democrats has. The only difference is that the chattering classes on STW aren’t keen to make petty point-scoring comments aimed at the leader of the Liberal Democrats.

This is the same leader of the Liberal Democrats, now the new hero of the chattering classes on STW, who as Business Secretary in the coalition government of 2010-15, along with LibDem Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander, were among the most vocal supporters of austerity :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jun/22/budget-taxandspending

A policy which only a couple of weeks ago was denounced by the UN Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights as a clear violation of human rights obligations (and also a policy which btw Jeremy Corbyn has pledged to reverse)

Quote from the UN report :

“Considering the significant resources available in the country and the sustained and widespread cuts to social support, which have resulted in significantly worse outcomes, the policies pursued since 2010 amount to retrogressive measures in clear violation of the country’s human rights obligations”

This is what Vince Cable had to say about Donald Trump’s state visit to the UK :

“There is no problem with doing business with the American government, but, he shouldn’t be honoured in any particular way, most American Presidents are not.”

Vince Cable clearly doesn’t have a problem with talking to Donald Trump, but he did not approve of him being offered a state visit. Which is precisely why Vince Cable refused to attend the state banquet too.

So why no criticism of Vince Cable on STW? I can’t be because of hypocrisy – surely not?

And to give a fuller picture, this was the Green Party’s views on Trump’s state visit when it was first announced:

“It is deeply disappointing that in its desperation to pander to the new US President the Government has ignored almost 2 million British people who made it clear they do not want to give a racist misogynist the highest honour our country has to offer.

“Donald Trump’s presidency has already been marked by an utterly disgraceful travel ban, while his apparent intent to withdraw from the Paris Agreement highlights his contempt for environmental protection.

“We should be showing backbone and leadership by taking a stand against the President’s damaging policies – not rolling out a red carpet.”

Jeremy Corbyn has always made it abundantly clear that he willing to talk to people of all political hues, including those with whom he strongly disagrees, especially when it is to promote and advance justice and peace. In fact he has often been criticized for doing precisely that.

It is accepted protocol for the visiting head of state on a state visit to the UK to meet with the Leader of HM opposition. Corbyn decided that it would provide the opportunity to talk on a range of issues including, the climate emergency, threats to peace, and the refugee crises, so an invitation was issued.

That does not in anyway conflict with his decision not to attend a lavish over opulent banquet in Buckingham Palace attended by an elite assortment of self-serving sycophants, and instead talk to tens of thousands of people in Central London deeply concerned with the climate emergency, LGBT rights, global justice, racism, poverty, and misogyny.

Can you imagine the outcry if Corbyn had agreed to attend the state banquet? There are indeed valid reasons to criticise Corbyn, his attitude towards Donald Trump isn’t one of them.

You are becoming boring now Edukator.

TopTip : Try to keep your hostility towards me onto just one thread at a time, instead of trying to chase me round the forum.

….trying to demonise them with spurious arguemnets based on 1956 just devalues the valid arguments …..

And yet criticism of the Freedom Party’s Nazi origins are so strong that even the leader of the Freedom Party disagrees with you and says that some of the criticism is valid. I don’t think he would be saying that if there was no case to answer, do you?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/fpo-far-right-nazi-links-justified-heinz-christian-strache-austria-a8214086.html

But yeah, this has bugger all to do with Johnson and his pathological lying, even if you add 3 words in reference to him.

Donald Trump is going Southsea tomorrow to pay tribute to all those who gave so much on D-Day, in that global struggle against racism and bigotry.

There will be D-Day veterans there, but hopefully none that were captured by the Nazis. Because of course Trump, the Vietnam draft-dodger, famously said, “He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. … I like people who weren’t captured.”

If he makes small talk with war veterans I wonder if he’ll bring up his chronic (but temporary) problem with his “bone spurs”, I’m sure they would be fascinated.

“your mate Blair” was a reference to your strong support for Labour as expresed on this forum since way back when.

I have never supported Labour Party whilst Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, and Ed Miliband, were leaders. I have always made that abundantly clear. I have also made it abundantly clear that I always opposed all of Tony Blair’s wars.

In the 1997 general election I canvassed for the LibDems, precisely because of opposition to New Labour. I continued to support the LibDems right up until Nick Clegg became leader and he swung the party to the right. After that I supported the Greens. Until thank ****, the Labour Party became the Labour Party again, and not the Tories’s “Plan B”.

My political position has never changed, but Labour and the LibDems certainly have.

And you will find that far right did not do as well as predicted in EU election. And in Austria, they resigned from the government.

You’ll find that it was their best ever result. And they are indisputably immensely more powerful than they were, say, 10 years ago.

Your comment on Austria is an oversimplification. Yes, 2 weeks ago all the Freedom Party ministers resigned from the government. There is now a provisional government and interim Chancellor until early elections are held in September.

In the EU elections a couple of weeks ago the Austrian Freedom Party increased their votes unexpectedly, although their share of the vote went down slightly. They remain a powerful party in Austrian politics. Never forget that their first leader was a former Nazi minister and SS officer. The far-right are very strong in Austria – a quarter of the vote last general election.

However given how little I typed you’ve managed to put a hell of a lot of words in my mouth and distort what little I said, Ernie.

LOL! Says the man who then immediately types :

You’ve forgotten that your mate Blair started the war that led to the refugee crisis …..

Yeah……my mate Blair. I had forgotten that Blair was “my mate”. I had also completely forgotten that I wasn’t opposed to Tony Blair’s wars. You do realise that I’m the same ernie lych that was registered as ernie_lych, don’t you?

And quite why “my mate” Blair’s bloody wars is a justification for allowing people to drown at sea I don’t understand. Are you attempting to justify it because you support the policy? Are you an NF supporter? And no, I’m not putting words in your mouth, I’m just curious as to why you are trying to deflect the blame onto “my mate” Blair.

I’m not quite sure how we get from all that to “and now here we are” though, that seems something of a leap.

FFS how long did you want that post to be Cougar?!! It’s completely off-topic anyway.

I said that I left out Enoch Powell, a very important individual in that story. The point is, and I think I made it, is that there was an idealogical struggle on the far-right of British politics. Between the very strongly pro-European far-right and the very strongly pro-white commonwealth far-right. The very strongly pro-white commonwealth far-right won, if Mosley had been successful the result would have been different.

You presume wrongly, Ernie, opinion polls told the RN what a vote loser Frexit was so they dropped the policy, if you’re a populist you promise things that people want

LOL! So for the last 47 years the French NF has supported Frexit because they thought it was “popular”, and now, in 2019, they have discovered that it isn’t, so they no longer support Frexit?

I’m sure that I don’t have to provide a detailed critique to point out the flaws in that statement. Unless of course I’m wrong and for the last 47 years Frexit has been highly popular in France, until this year, then that statement would work.

Edit: to add my interpretation, she’s seen from Brixit how catastophic for a country leaving the union is…

Despite not living in France, nor being actually interested in what the reconstituted polished-up neo-nazi has to say, I appear to know more in relation to what Marine Le Pen thinks and says than you do Edukator. Note :

Le Pen did not say why she no longer favors a “Frexit,” but she has continued to laud the supposed benefits that Brexit has brought to the United Kingdom.

“Since #Brexit, the national wealth of the United Kingdom has outperformed that of the eurozone, their unemployment rate is at its lowest, they created twice as many jobs as in France and salaries have increased since the end of mass immigration!” Le Pen tweeted on Saturday.

https://www.politico.eu/article/marine-le-pen-national-rally-french-far-right-wants-to-scrap-european-commission/

Now does that sound like someone who thinks voting Brexit has been “catastrophic” for the UK?

You would have to very naive to believe that the rise of the racist far-right across Europe hasn’t influenced Marine Le Pen’s new found desire to remain in the EU. And the rise of the racist far-right across the EU is indeed staggering, they are actually in government in Austria, Italy, and Hungary, and you could probably also include Poland.

And we’re talking proper racists here, people who are driven bigotry and hatred, not so-called ‘racists’ who some people amusingly call those who can’t see the benefits of the EU or use words such as “coloured people” instead of “people of colour”.

The sort of racists who are now forcing the EU to let desperate people fleeing wars, which were mostly started with the full support of the EU, drown at sea. And let’s be clear, the governments of Austria, Hungary, and Italy, WANT these people to drown. They argue that the more who drown, the less people will attempt to find sanctuary in Europe. It is a policy of complete inhumanity, the sort of policy which you can expect from reconstituted polished-up neo-nazis.

What’s age got to do it, that little old lady looks pretty old too, she doesn’t look like a plumper to me.

Interesting true fact about the US presidential birth year. Buggered up by Obama though, not only was he born in the wrong country but also, it turns out, in the wrong year.

Sleeves are too long too.

To be fair he probably asked for that. I would want to try to hide my embarrassingly tiny hands too if I was him.

should finish just below the waistband as should the waistcoat.

FFS I’ve just seen it mefty, I never realised that he was such a fat bastard.

He should sack his tailor, or sack someone.

And someone should let that poor little old lady go home – she looks like she’s ready for her bed, bless her.

no real waist to the body

WTF, a wasp with no waist???

Ffs, this obesity crisis is worst than I thought.

Mind you “there’s no pine trees nearby”, that might explain it … probably been binging on empty carbs.

According to the video Donald Trump wants to meet Boris Johnson. Well if they do, and they are friends now, I wonder if Trump will give Johnson any tips on how to get away with lying?

Presumably if he does it will be along the lines of “make your lies so absurd, so ridiculous, so completely unbelievable, that no one can possibly accuse of trying to deceive anyone”.

Either that or “come back to your birthplace Boris, being a narcissistic pathological liar is no obstacle for an aspiring politician in the USA”

Okay, I really wouldn’t claim to be an expert about anything Cougar but I have had an interest in politics since my childhood. To understand why we are where we are today, and why the far right has developed as it has in the UK, you need to look at the past. And btw Britain’s imperial past is central to this.

In the 1930s the British Nazis/Fascist party was the British Union of Fascists led by Oswald Mosley. Despite having been in both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party Mosley was a totally committed Nazi and close to Hitler. He married of the famous Mitford sisters Diana, who was also a committed Nazi and admirer of Hitler. During much of the war both Mosley and his wife were interned, as most active fascists were at the time.

After the war Mosley and his followers decided to re-engage with politics. Now Mosley might have been a fascist but he wasn’t stupid, he was a realist and intelligent enough to realise that that there was no future for the British Empire. The liberation of Europe had made it very difficult to justify the subjugation the peoples of the Empire. Besides, Britain was no longer the primary global power now, the United States was. Supporting the creaking British Empire did not serve US interests.

So Mosley focused instead on something which had always been at the heart of fascist and nazi ideology – the unification of Europe. The term “axis” as in the Axis Powers of WW2, comes from a speech made Mussolini in 1936 after an Italian-German treaty in which he said “This Berlin-Rome protocol is not a barrier, it is rather an axis around which all European States animated by a desire for peace may collaborate on troubles” In other words Europe would be united around the leadership of Italy and Germany.

Now I’ve posted this link before recently somewhere, might even be on this thread, but here again is the party which Moseley formed postwar :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Movement

Mosley perceived a linear growth within British history and he saw Europe a Nation as the culmination of this destiny. Therefore, he argued that it was “part of an organic process of British history”, as Britain had united into one nation, and that it was Britain’s national destiny to unite the whole continent

Needless to say it wasn’t a success. Later in the 1960s he formed National Party of Europe which was a pan-European party, that obviously wasn’t a success either. Most of its supporters outside the UK were former German Nazis and Italian Fascists. Only the Italian Fascists, MSI, had any sort of electoral success.

Now Mosley wasn’t the only far right politician at that time, Arthur K. Chesterton, another former member of the British Union of Fascists, led a group of mostly Conservative Party members called The League of Empire Loyalists. As the name suggests, the League of Empire Loyalists wanted to preserve the British Empire. This of course put them completely at odds with the pro-European far right, for them Europe was a threat which threaten Britain’s ties with the Empire and Commonwealth.

The League of Empire Loyalists were particularly incensed when Harold Macmillan (the greatest Tory Prime Minister Britain ever had) made his famous “Wind of Change” speech in 1960, in which he made the case against white rule and in favour of decolonisation. With clearly no place for them in the Tory party Chesterton went on to help set up the National Front Party.

By that time Mosley had pretty much given up on politics and the NF had all the far right, racist, and neo-Nazi, territory to themselves. The NF was of course very opposed to the EEC, its propaganda in the 60s and 70s talked of much closer links with the “white” commonwealth, “our kith and kin” as they always liked to refer to them as. They were of course extremely supportive of white minority rule in South Africa and Southern Rhodesia, as indeed were many right-wing Tory MPs.

The NF led to the BNP and by that point all far right UK racists were firmly opposed to the One Nation/United Europe dream of Oswald Mosley. Oh I almost forgot, Oswald Mosley;s wife long outlived him and she remained a devoted fascist and pro-European Union until her dying breath.

Diana Mosley lived in Paris and this is what she had to say about Jean-Marie Le Pen, the then leader of France’s far right racist party the National Front :

“I’ve had a look at Le Pen’s programme,” she confides from her Paris apartment. “He is just a crusty old Eurosceptic Tory backbencher, everything I most dislike. In all essentials, and in particular with respect to Europe, his views are the opposite of mine. Mosley was a dedicated European and could never have got together with Le Pen.”

https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle-2-15039/the-other-lady-diana-1-504476

If Mosley was still alive today she would be very happy to learn that although the French NF had been anti-EEC/EU since its foundation in 1972 since earlier this year it now supports EU membership. Presumably the rise of the racist far right across the EU has helped them to come to this historic decision.

I was going to mention Enoch Powell, the man who would have been last Viceroy of India, as he’s quite important to this story, in terms of racism, empire, and anti-Europe, but that’s a whole lot more stuff, way too much.

So this is why we are where we are Cougar……events dear boy, events, as Harold Macmillan (the greatest Tory Prime Minister Britain ever had) might have said. FFS I’m starting to sound like Rudyard Kipling! I think it’s all this talk of Empire.

I wondered if the Pine Marten eating grey squirrels but being unable to catch the reds due to them being able to escape to smaller branches……

Not that it matters of course but my understanding was that pine martens are able to catch grey squirrels because they spend far more time on the ground than red squirrels.

he also proposed somewhere in S America and another place in Africa.

Which I thought was my point, ie, other places were considered but the “Holy Land” was chosen for religious reasons.

I said that my preferred choice would have been a chunk of Germany.

They could have expanded over a period of time into a larger chunk because apparently that’s fine. Or at least no one does anything about it. Anyone who tries to is dismissed as a terrorist. Or possibly even worse, anti-Semitic.

You were talking about how it was formed, not why councillors subsequently jumped ship.

What councillors jumped ship? I’m not aware of any councillors jumping ship. The reason UKIP lost 80% of their councillors in the elections 4 weeks ago was presumably because voters no longer liked what they had become, there was no alternative brexit party for them to vote for in that election. I don’t think the majority of former UKIP voters suddenly decided that they were now remainers.

Embracing Tommy Robinson with his ideology of hatred towards Muslims and defending the right to make “jokes” about raping women obviously did UKIP no favours at all. Which backs up my claim that the British people feel a natural revulsion towards that sort of politics. In stark contrast in many EU countries stand on an anti-Muslim ticket and you stand a fair chance of winning. Cougar you once said that people should be worried who they “jump into bed with”, next time you say that think about who you are willing to “jump into bed with” in the EU.

No, I know it’s not a valid comment, but you made it. It would be as ridiculous as claiming that because UKIP and the BNP are opposed to the Tories you should vote Tory, otherwise you are just as bad as UKIP and the BNP.

On the question of the Brexit Party being “more” right-wing than UKIP which apparently some people are claiming, it is such a weird claim to make. It is completely impossible for the Brexit Party to be more right-wing than UKIP, or any other party, it has no policies. Presumably we are actually talking about some people’s opinions that the Brexit Party “might” become more right-wing than UKIP on economic matters.

But I really wouldn’t worry too much about it. Firstly it’s the voters perception of what the party is that matters here. And the general perception is that the Brexit Party is a party that supports leaving the EU but is more moderate and less racist/islamophobic/misogynist than UKIP. That’s what voters believe they have voted for. Which I have to admit that although I wouldn’t vote for a party led by Nigel Farage I find that extremely encouraging.

The second reason I wouldn’t worry is that the Brexit Party is doomed, it has within itself the seeds of its own destruction. UKIP tore itself apart after winning the previous EU election, it lost every single of its 24 MEPs through bickering. UKIP has only ever once won control of a local authority, Thanet, and within months their majority had collapsed through bickering and arguing. The more power they get the more they argue, they simply can’t organise a piss up in a brewery. In the case of the Brexit Party, and the political mishmash it represents, you can magnify that a hundred times. Nigel Farage? Claire Fox? Rachel Johnson? Ann Widdecombe? You’re kidding me.

it’s where all the pig shit thick racists gravitated towards

Yes but there’s a reason for that, it’s not inevitable. Or to paraphrase Harold Macmillan, (the greatest Tory Prime Minister Britain has ever had) events my dear boy, events.

If you are actually interested Cougar, and since you’re willing to accept that fascism and nazism isn’t your greatest forte, I can elaborate on that. Although it’s so off topic that it really should be on another/new thread.

Ernie – the NHS being….etc…..etc

TJ please please, I have absolutely no intention of trying to convince you of anything.

I didn’t post that link because I thought it might change someone’s mind with regards to Brexit, I’m not a ****. I simply posted it because I had mentioned that there is an alternative opinion which claims that leaving the EU will be good for the NHS, and someone said they would like to see it.

Although if I’m completely honest I don’t think they really did, they probably just didn’t believe that there was an alternative opinion. After all the general consensus on here (although to be fair not everyone) is that anyone who supports leaving the EU must be a pig shit thick racist who doesn’t bother to think.

I also did it because it amused to think how they were going to justify calling Dr David Owen a pig shit thick racist.

Is it also misogynist martinhutch? I edited my post because I buggered up the charge sheet against the far right.

This is worth a read

You lied to me Cougar!

So anyway you’re suggesting that UKIP lost 80% of their councillors in the local elections a couple of weeks ago because they were now too left-wing?

Btw you have to be careful how you use terms left and right when applied to facists and nazis. There’s a case to be made that the Fascist Party under Mussolini was significantly more left-wing than the Tories are today. However the Nazis, with their policies of mass privatisation, were no less right-wing than the Tories. To complicate matters the Italian Fascists weren’t racist, certainly not by the standards of the time.

I generally (although not exclusively) use the term far-right in its modern context of meaning a party that is racist, xenophobic, homophobic, islamophobic, sectarian, and misogynist.

If yo are reading a piece and come across several things that are utter nonsense then its safe to say that the whole thesis is invalid

That’s the same conclusion I came to when I read your bit saying that leaving the EU means the NHS “will have to” be opened up to ……

So at least we can agree on one thing.

Btw is “Euro Bears” a dig at the Brexit Wolves?

Cause initially it went right over my head if it was.

I think Northern Euro Bears would be a better bet, they’re big and cool to look at, but for the most party docile and harmless.

Plus they like to dance.

Well that’s what I like to see……..read something and then make your comments after you have read it.

I generally find that it works better like that.

Did you have much problem edhornby?

“The Strange Tale of Doctor David Owen”

Dr David Owen was of course the leading protagonist in the infamous “Gang Of Four”, the group of MPs who in 1981 broke away from the Labour Party to form their own political party. This course of action split the Labour vote and in no small way help to keep Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister for 10 years.

Dr David Owen’s motivation was based on 3 major Labour Party policies which he claimed he could never under any circumstances support, ie, nationalisation of the banks, unilateral nuclear disarmament, and withdrawal from the European Community.

Dr David Owen was a particularly strong supporter of the European Community. Indeed he felt so strongly about it that resigned from Harold Wilson’s shadow cabinet in 1972 over Labour’s refusal to back British entry to the EEC. His new party, the Social Democratic Party, formed an electoral alliance with the equally pro-European Liberal Party.

Eventually in 1988 the two parties formed the Liberal Democratic Party, at which point Dr David Owen appears to disappear into political oblivion.

Now I don’t know when, nor whether it was a gradual process or a Road to Damascus moment, but at some point between then and 1996 Dr David Owen transformed himself in a Eurosceptic. I know that it wasn’t after 1996 because he claims that Tony Blair attempted to seduce back into the Labour Party then with promises of a bright political future. A believable claim imo as Owen had been quite a political heavyweight previously in the Labour Party. He had been, among other things, Shadow Secretary of State for Energy, Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, and Minister of State for Health and Social Security.

However he turned down the offer when he apparently realised that Blair was committed to taking Britain into the European currency (I think Gordon Brown won on that one) Owen claims that it was the “best decision I ever made in my life”.

Owen then pops up again in the political limelight just before the EU Referendum during the campaign. He is now a totally committed Brexiteer. Although the former physician hasn’t practised medicine for a long time healthcare and the NHS is still his passion, and he argues forcefully that it is vital to leave the EU to save the NHS. He led the Vote Leave ‘Save Our NHS’ campaign.

Ironical if he hadn’t done what did in a previous life Labour might have won the 1983 general election and the UK would have left the European Community.

And of course also the basic mistake of referring to ” the NHS” when actually he means ” nhs england”

And right there is conclusive proof that you didn’t read the link. How you can give your opinion on something which you haven’t even bother reading is quite frankly beyond me. Can you explain to me how exactly that works?

Although to be fair to you, you did openly admit that you “only got a few paragraphs in”. So why I’m even discussing it with you I don’t really know.

David Owen knows exactly what he means. That’s why he mentions “The English Health Department” “Today England is..” “…the north of England” “…health and care nursing workforce supply in England” “The population of England needs…”…40,000 unfilled nurse posts in England” “….the NHS midwifery shortage in England estimated at 3,500” “England is currently training around 20,000 nurses a year…” training applicants in England fell by…”

Its not ther EU thats the issue, its successive government policies

FFS why don’t you read the link? David Owen makes it crystal clear the responsibility of successive governments, all of them – Labour, Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition, and Conservative governments.

And you still haven’t answered my question – why for the love of god would David Owen “make the facts fit the theory” as you claim? Do you actually know who he is? He’s not another Nigel Farage you know. When he was in the Labour Party there was no one more pro-European than him, he put his own political at risk over his support for Europe.

Since you didn’t bother reading the link I assume that you didn’t bother reading my original post either, so no worries I’ll copy and paste an edited version. Because who David Owen is, is highly relevant to how credible his opinions on Europe and the NHS are.