‘Caletti’, ‘Sklar’  do ’em –

PAF though (Pimp as ****) – and priced to match.

They are – its just that they’ve gone right back to Tomac and stuck a drop on it, and ride it like it’s a mtb. Some niche builders are doing nice steel flat bar rigids- check out places like ‘the radavist’ (website) – here’s one that’d do.

Ok -so just checked under their ‘beautiful’ bikes subsection and most flat-barred have suss-forks so just classic hardtails – loads of lovely drop gravel bikes to see – sure I’ve seen some of these brands doing a flat bar somewhere….

“JMC’s red stumpy hardtail from dirt” – Mate of mine still has one of these in his shed, with the original Spesh carbon legged Rockshox too. Used to ride it like he stole it too…probably doesn’t know how cool it is now as he’s into proper adulting.

That’s it, might cut my handlebars down…680mm is just too wide, unnecessary. Now where’d I put those bar ends….

Not Boring – Enjoyed that too. Old Skool is where it’s at kids. Echoes my findings exactly…they missed the point by timing it though, it should be judged by the smiles at the end – which is actually more fun, more involving to ride?

Always knowingly underbiked = way more fun. A fast tired race 29er gets the job done for me, and ends up very close to the flat or drop bar Lauf in style.

Key thing that’s not often mentioned is that to get a race 29er to around that weight (lets set 22lbs as a fun threshold – flame away) there’s no way around it other than it being expensive…the thing I like about these new gravelly bikes is they’re a bit more democratic/ inclusive as you can get a great all-round capable bike for a lot less…or lets say, a bit more like a decent mtb was in the 90’s.

manton69’s Fat Chance Yo Eddy does it for me, right up there at the top of the cool wall.

Coolest paint job ever, dripping in Ringle – is that a Ringle crank too? Grafton’s or Ringle brakes?, thumbies, Spesh Umma Gummas? Obligatory Flite – seriously ‘superbike’ stuff from the time.

That Pic of Tinker on the Klein Attitude a close second…must have been really early days, spot the toeclips and looks to be before Klein went with the super oversized tubing, love the bar width and torso angle…proper. Is that also perhaps a Campagnolo mtb groupset, so maybe 1989?

Tinker –  Always in the big ring. Legend

Brynje – not familiar – just looked…now see the ‘Right said Fred’ references. If it works in a sweaty club it just might get the job done….

Agree also with Jameso above about it all being about the abilities of the top layer. I’m finding the full windstopper type layers to be not breathable enough, but it’s hard to find the perfect balance of protection and breathability – Seems the mountaineering world of jackets is slightly ahead with ‘Active Insulation’ the Polartec Alpha Direct fabric is great for stop start fast moving sweaty stuff providing that fast wicking air separation layer – haven’t seen many biking cut jackets use this to full effect yet? Always searching.

Agree that Merino doesn’t work for certain riding situations for a profuse sweater. I might wear merino for a steady state low tempo ride at low altitude mid winter and find it ok- but get some pace on and start sweating while on mtb which by nature is more stop/start – or more importantly go onto mountain tops mid winter having inevitably sweated buckets getting up there while also needing a full protection layer against the elements…then being exposed to lower temps and less body activity on top or descending and its a slow drying chilling recipe for hypothermia.

I have found the Craft Active Extreme baselayers to be the Wickingest of the Wicking,  but find HH to be OK too.

Had an Old Skool Litespeed Ti hardtail…lovely thing, it seemed to float down the trail going ‘ping’ ‘ting’ ‘ting’ and encouraged one to push it harder to really make it sing.

Felt indestructible too – liked how water and mud just fell off it, so easy to live with…hammered hard and still looked fresh years later.

Only had to sell because the wheels grew 1.5-3″ too small.

Would get something similar again in a flash.

Go on treat yourself.

Once had a customer in for brake service – we noticed the lightweight carbon hardtail’s top tube was split in two. They had taken two wooden lollipop sized splints and gaffer taped them onto the tube to complete the repair.  They had continued to ride like this assuming the frame was strong enough to compensate for lacking its full requisite of complete tubes. You could grab the bars and twist the bike a good few inches out of axis – they weren’t dead after many happy miles riding like this so ‘may’ have been a genius….what this shows I’m not sure….

I have witnessed a carbon downtube ‘crunching’ and shattering when clamped by the Thule tray type rack which had a cam type lever (like a cam quickrelease) to close the jaws onto the tube- it took surprisingly little force to do this and wrote the frame off, a RockyMountain carbon hardtail. Obviously a strap is not going to apply similar force if it’s just securing the load so should be fine.

Lightweight thin wall large diameter carbon tubes are surprisingly vulnerable to certain forces and the more high performance high modulus carbons can be even more brittle in this respect. I have seen lightweight road bikes destroyed by such inane things as like falling from stationary onto a sharp edge or tools falling onto them in the back of vans – the centre regions of top tubes or downtubes particularly vulnerable.

Most modern mountain bikes outside of lightweight race bikes are fairly overbuilt with more wall thickness, possibly with features in the layup to mitigate against impacts. So as long as you’re sensible, should be of no concern.

Just watch the clamp forces….

That Alpine is one of the most desirable cars on sale today in my mind…would buy one in a heartbeat, just need to go do a bank first. Focused on lightweight, just the right amount of power, suspension that works and flows with the road rather than achieving ‘handling’ by being sprung like a roller-skate – hopefully more manufacturers wake up to this being a way forward instead of too much power/grip/weight being the norm in anything deemed ‘sporty’.

GT86, Elise/ Exige, Cayman GTS/GT4 (or whichever is the best spec a layman can actually buy!) would also do just fine.

Problem is the market for these sort of things is tiny with the default option being the antithetical 2tonne bloated SUV   –  as far as saving the polar bears is concerned, a small petrol engined proper light car can have lower impact than the dirty diesel – my 1200kg 220bhp can get me mid-40’s mpg on a cruise, lighter on its components too, happy enough with that.

Car mad friend of mine is thinking of getting a 997 gen 911 donor car and giving it to RPM Technik to mod into their CSR build, an interesting way to GT3 levels of specialness…they also do 996 gen. Worth a look into. He also has a Morgan Aero 8 which is a lovely antidote to modern cars, old school feel and a proper event to be in…great on track too.

Modern mini GP1 / GP2. Involving for a modern car that remains vaguely practical, and affordable – fully exploitable and fun at normal road speeds.

Careful now, the Ebike Riders Protection Lobby will rise up to set us straight.

Even the body position on that thing shouts MX bike….so is he now World Champ Ebikerist? hmmm..aspirational.

Someone needs to invent a challenging format for the Ebikes- like first to the top of a big gnarly steep impossible mountain in the Alps then back down again…that could be interesting.

That video is hilarious, and embarrassing. In the few seconds I could bear to watch- noticed that the yellow bike in the lead was accelerating without pedalling and commentator said it was capable of 80Kph unrestricted- er..so moped/ scooter/ crap motorbike whateveritis right?

Flying from Manchester next week and was investigating much the same re: Lube. Now I have flown many times before with a small quantity of Rock’n’ Roll Gold in the bike bag hold luggage, no problem but never searched, now I realise perhaps shouldn’t have. Am aware that Rock’nRoll became hard to acquire in this country due to air freight restrictions on account of it being highly flammable, so did a wee bit of research…and being as many are a self proclaimed lube specialist I examined my box of many lubes…and also their MSDS sheets.

Now it seems most dry wax type lubes are regarded as highly/ extremely flammable being a wax dispersed into a petroleum base where presumably the fumes could be ignited at room temperature – the safety labels of most of my bottles state the same white lightening Epic/  Finish Line Dry and as such should not be anywhere near an aircraft hand or hold luggage in accordance with the airlines guidance. Also suspect the fumes from these things could highly resemble some naughtier explosive devices on whatever detectors they use these days.

Some wet type lubes such as Pedros Syn lube or Finish Line ceramic wet have no flammable warnings or mention in SDS.

As wet lubes are not my lube of choice I’m trying my hand with Purple Extreme whose labelling calls itself ‘Combustible’ ie: much higher flash point than ‘flammable’

why no Stans?, was planning on taking a small bottle…is it the ammonia..

to add some balance to the riders who claim their ebike is just the same as a normal bike, loads of recent articles like this one….

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/31/electric-bicycle-fatalities-injuries-are-rising/

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/07/electric-bike-injuries-mount-102-e-cyclists-have-died-since-2014/

TLDR is 4 times the impact when you hit a pedestrian, harmful injuries doubled..+ you’re doomed if you ride one if over 65….

I don’t own an ebike, but if I needed one for health reasons or injury, or it became the most viable option to commute on to get a car off the road… I’d go out tomorrow and buy one – go razzing about bagging up KOMS, ride the wheels off it with a huge grin on my face, and not give a flying one what anyone else thought of me on it…so just crack on ebikers. I see lots of ebikes about, had a first ride recently where 100% of other riders seen out were on ebikes (ahem…5 separate individuals…not a single analog rider on a beautiful day, which was weird)  Some in the industry already predict that MTB will mainly become a powered sport in the future whether we like it or not…so best get used to it…

One thought…if most trail centres were designed before ebikes were invented, and designed for open flow on the descents and climbing at slower speeds like tight switchbacks….will the trails need to be adapted for even flow?

…”Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (Amendment) Regulations 2015″reference”</sup> Riders must be at least 14 years of age, but no driving licence is required.”

The law says that under 14’s shouldn’t be on E-bikes…hence my comments, which were quickly ridiculed….I realise some people have no qualms with breaking the law…just watch out for the criminal intelligence investigation bureau  lurking above.

220W on a road bike on a rolling/flat should see you over 20mph, so your 7 miles takes 20 mins or so- and I would expect less than 500cal for around 75kg rider. Bike weight, position, tyres will of course add to that. I have no idea but am intrigued how these numbers would compare to ebike. How accurate is the power reading I wonder?

Oh ffs 🙄

Get a sense of perspective pleeease.

It’s kids on bikes 😳

Well, the trail centres near me are some of the most technical in the country. Seeing as adults end up in ambulances at the trailhead on a fairly regular basis what’s so wrong about being concerned about the safety of 7-10 year olds pilling into trees at 25kph? FFS….whatevs. Swinley may be a different kettle of cod. Wasn’t it just a few weeks ago that 2 kids in London died on electric scooters?

Kids on e-bikes is hugely problematic, can’t see the necessity of it (unless they’re disabled). I’d rather see kids learn skills and a respect for their surroundings at a slower pace, and learn that with effort you can improve and grow physically without having to resort to the easy option. Can totally see how other kids would be upset by the difference…maybe more so than some of the adults on here.

“A bit like KERS in F1, but with moobs.”

Ah yes, I see now, I like. A Mooby ‘Push-to-Pass’ function.

I was thinking more that all the “it’s just as much of a workout as a normal bike” riders could ride them on a turbo and have the motor feed the power back into the battery.

The Irony in my comment may not have been immediately obvious. Having the E-bike on the turbo in a self perpetuating energy cycle, albeit one closer to the cafe, restricts the need for the e-bikers to be having their all important consequence free ‘fun’ times – better to repurpose the excess muscle energy of the fitness obsessed who can be so easily placated by a self congratulatory comparison algorithm and can’t possibly be enjoying themselves on the trail at their sub-warp-speed pace anyway….the darkness slowly creeps.

As it was mentioned that it’s ten years since ‘The Age of Stupid’ previously…an interesting 11 minute listen…and a Postlethwaite.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2019/mar/15/the-age-of-stupid-revisited-whats-changed-on-climate-change-video

Aye Kayla, am much the same as you. Consciousness does seem to be changing slowly, particularly in the younger generation, they’re probably our only hope – but agree it will probably take heavy government legislation to affect the behaviour of a worrying irresponsible majority who just don’t GAF …and that’s just not going to happen from our main political parties in fear of losing voters.

“How about some kind of pedal powered generator/turbo type arrangement?”

This is good…so analogue cyclists can be lined up stationary and use their efforts Matrix style to provide power for the e-bikers to go off and have their fun…maybe we have some software attached to the generator which shows who has provided the most watt’s into the battery…a sort of WOM…everyone kept happy.

“No less normal than buying a bike because a particular pro won a race series on it, or you thought it looked good? Any reason is a fair reason really.”

More of a knowing nod to the rep of Tony E…. But actually if brands displayed their eco credentials then it could become a ‘primary’ reason to favour that brand, for some people it could be as important as looks or other marketing. Patagonia are a prime example where all of their efforts are absolutely front and centre on their webpage…I like this a lot. If outdoor brands can operate like this and prosper then seeing as the bike industry has an equal end usage out there in the environment, it would be great to see more efforts from the bike brands. I see on that list of EOCA brands that many large outdoor brands are signed up, but no bike brands other than those with dual associations…Gore, Vaude, Thule are on there…..

“any e-bikes are coming to http://www.southlakesbikefest.com its an extra £10 for you dudes, to pay for the diesel for the generator 🙂 not all routes will be ebike friendly though”

I know nothing but does such a thing exist as a portable renewable energy source and storage device? versus the use of a diesel generator – I’m imagining a collapsable wind turbine and battery pack with a bank of solar…..probably doesn’t exist, yet.

Having just watched that Guy Kesteven review of the Whyte at Whinlater, what worries me is that the speed achievable on climbs vs analog in less skilled hands is going to result in some incidents due to speed differential, getting hit by a 50lb bike and outsize rider at speed will hurt.

Thanks Jameso- that blows my illusions. What would be great would be to see a brand that is transparent about it’s sourcing of materials, it’s production facilities and ultimately the carbon footprint of it’s products – It’s not something I’ve seen out there often and could even be something that’s marketed as a positive thing. Or would we all be too horrified at the harsh reality of global economics? I remember a decade ago I bought an Ellsworth over another brand having been impressed by their attempts at the time towards a carbon neutral in-house factory, possibly with renewable power sources (was that real or just marketing?…long gone now i assume)-  I’m glad I did, it was a great bike, and realise this positions me as ‘not normal’…..but it shows it can influence buying decisions.

“Got a link to that data?”

No, but a series of extensive articles run in BikeBiz magazine last year based on wide data collected from bike retailers across the country came to that conclusion. Articles were related to explaining the high rate of closures of LBS and shifts in popular product types- it’s possible the articles are still viewable online. My observations in store over more than a decade in a popular mtb area reflect their conclusions with a sad noticeable decline in youth footfall and the majority of customers  with spending power being of an older demographic. Fully understandable given the challenges facing youth on low pay, insecure jobs, housing issues, but also explained by the increase in ‘screen time’ eating away at real activities. The manufacturers know this full well…hence we get expensive e-bikes which the majority of retailers will be relying on to survive via. These trends are also mirrored in the car industry where manufacturers will have to adapt to the fact that many urban based young people are not even learning to drive anymore (also for economic reasons), and if they do are potentially more likely to ‘rent’ a car when they need one through a high-tech scheme rather than be burdened with the cost of ownership.

All of this could be interpreted as an opportunity to target that younger demographic with suitable products styles, ie: a simple affordable bike not the latest whizzbang gizmo. This is something that has been happening in the US with a resurgence of grass-roots XC style events on a collegiate level that focuses on simpler attainable equipment to aid inclusivity, and comes with huge benefits all-round to health – but also potential for the industry to build a new sustained customer base. Would love to see more focus on this sort of thing over here…

” This is a thriving growing sport with people with high end products with disposable income”. Actually, reliable data within the UK bike industry such as published by BikeBiz has shown the exact opposite. A declining and ageing demographic of customers with higher expenditure predominately in older age groups – Brexit will soon sort the disposable income bit…

I’ve noticed when looking at these American websites such as the Radavist that one of the most popular clothing brands you’ll see is Patagonia, and I’m sure it’s because as a brand their ethos has always been about ethical and traceable sourcing, sustainability, maximising usage and repairability. It’s great example of what a brand should be and whats heartening is that their ubiquity seems to show that there’s an appetite for that even if the initial outlay cost may be higher.

What’s the bike equivalent of a brand such as Patagonia? (I’m sure there’s other similar clothing brands now but can’t think of many bike manufacturers that would fit the bill) There seems to be West Coast US scene of small scale steel frame brands supplying the gravel/ mtb hardtail market ie Crust/ All City Cycles- don’t know anything about them but some look like they’re local built rather than outsourced frame production. You would’ve thought that there’s space for brands like that in the UK and could be the way forward if this type of production proves to be of lower impact. I fear the answer is that the average Californian may have more disposable $ to accommodate the inevitable higher cost in a quality locally made steel frame vs mass market import.

Having 14 years experience doing this sort of thing…you’d be amazed at the quantity of spares you’d need to have at hand to cover the multitude of standards you’ll encounter if you want to fix on the spot. Even mechanics with decades of experience have to resort to googling, phoning suppliers and ordering obscure parts in, not always immediately available either.  And then as above you need to explain to your customer that a shimano gear cable costs more than 99p etc…..even if you do encounter a good bike like a modern mtb you’ve got to explain to the customer that spent 2k and assumes the bike is therefore self maintaining that they’ve worn out the whole drivetrain costing £200+ to replace, needs a shock service too etc…by the time to you’ve spent 2 hours trying to free that rusty pivot bearing, then had to price match all your parts down to cost because internet- then actually paying yourself a wage may be a problem.

Having said that – If done well there is a space for this in the market…some very successful businesses in the US doing it. Could be more likely to succeed than most LBS in current climate.

Interesting thread this. Mirrors my suspicions that most big brands have been going down a dodgy road with their evolutions. Glad that others have found sites like ‘the Radavist’ where they favour or seem to promote simpler more utilitarian bike brands. Builds that seem retro by todays standards but are in contrast sustainably tough, possibly assembled upcycling old parts (but equally suited to modern group sets) probably based around a frame made from steel, maybe even from a local builder. And the key thing is that the riders seem to be having a blast…

As many suspect the profit driven machinations of the big corporate brands churning new innovations in performance to tempt that major purchase are in contradiction to what is actually best suited to most riders usage and environmental sustainability. The ‘tool’ aspect of a simpler bike is a great characteristic  where an appropriate design can enable a rider to have fun in their local riding, be something you can rely on for a big adventure and everything in-between and be a positive healthy thing for the individual and the planet.  Feel myself getting fed up with the ‘toylike’ modern bikes that rely on X incompatible standards, expensive but not necesssarily robust components, things that need continual servicing to run, or bikes that indeed need plugging in to the grid to get anywhere – and in many cases the performance of these bikes is pushed to the point where it needs to go on the roof of your Audi to the artificial trail park to explore it’s limits, and feels numb anywhere less.

Sounds like what you could go for is a modern 29er XC hardtail race bike. I have one that weighs about 20lbs, scoots along on the road almost as fast as a gravel bike especially when set with the flat bars racey and low. A 2.1 Thunder Burt semislick on rear is as fast as most gravel tyres, and yet can ride anything i’d normally ride on full-suss, albeit much more delicately. Hand positions can be resolved by not having such a modern wide bar width and having an ergonomic bar end – think Ergon….like a 90’s mtb but much faster…

From here on in it’s most likely to be somebody on an E-bike whether road or MTB….on a ride out on a nice sunny day on the road bike last week in moderately hilly terrain 100% of other riders I saw out were on e-bikes, range of ages – this was the first time thats happened  (which means I saw 5 riders on a 3 hour ride, but thats normal). Within a few years Strava Climb KOM’s will be a pointless activity.