Dezb et. al.
If you can’t see how that tweet solidly implies a link between a mixed race child and an ape, do you also hold that some football fans chuck bananas at black players because they’re worried about their potassium levels?

He might not have meant it that way, but that doesn’t make him “beyond racism” it makes him look like a **** idiot, and hes clearly not alone.

outofbreath

Personally, I think he was spot on with this. Anyone who sees a chimp and thinks “black person” is twisted.

I think you’ll find that it was the other way around.

Someone saw a mixed race child and thought “chimp”.

See?

No-one had to look at a picture and wait for a connection in their own head. The connection was made in the words he wrote underneath.

Is that clear enough? Or is “obtuse” in the running for word of the week.

Its not the picture thats racist, its the context he wrote for it.

Thanks for playing.

somewhatslightlydazed

But unless you are a racist yourself, or have suffered from racism, its not immediately obvious.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA…

Oh .. you were serious?

Clearly Wet Wet Wet were, wrong its not just love all around us.

Dezb, google is your friend, unless you were just being obtuse?

I agree that the relevance of a story about someone comparing a mixed race person to an ape, in a thread about someone comparing a mixed race person to an ape might have gone over your head so for clarity. Its a reference to a story about someone comparing a mixed race person to an ape. (and the aftermath).

Does that help?

What is all this pish about how no-one could think or notice that a joke about a mixed race person involving comparisons to a chimp might be a bit racist?

For those who can’t see the problem. Any comment on Rosanne Rarrs tweet about Valerie Jarret?

That cost her her career, but at least she admitted that what she said was offensive and told people to stop defending her (even if she claimed she didn’t mean it that way, and blamed sleeping tablets).

I’d say that both Danny Bakers tweet and apology were worse.

I don’t like it when people jump in the offense bandwagon.
When they get pissed about “offense” to their religion or politics, they can jog on.

But this is racism, not “perlicital kerreknese gernded maaaaaaad!”.

Genuinely shocked by how many people think its OK to proselytize in this way through a school.

Its quite normal for people on the inside of religion to only see it as a positive experience, and see nothing wrong with telling everyone about it.

Its also quite normal for a large number of others to see it as harmless, because they may not be susceptible themselves.

But telling a child (even obliquely) that they may be separated from their family members and tortured for all eternity based on whether they give the right answers to a mental questionnaire about the baby jesus, is seriously **** up.

As a child (and beyond) I lost a lot of sleep over this pish. For those who think its all just words and can’t have a serious effect, try to imagine what its like if you are genuinely taken in and actually believe what they say.

Even if you believe and “save” yourself, imagine what it feels like when the people you love the most don’t.

It’s not about love, its about control and the threat of eternal loss.

Oh, and its a made up lie.

PS Remember 2015 anyone
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/27/jeremy-corbyn-labour-membership-policy-leadership

Loving the labour acolytes here. I haven’t seen so much doublethink since I read the book that coined the term doublethink.

As someone (@jonlis) said on the twitter “Labour had an open goal and opted to impale itself on the goalpost”

All the pish about representing both sides is like saying your supporting celibacy by only getting a little bit pregnant.

Pure unadulterated 24 carat bellendery.

Both main parties will deliver brexit. may will leave, and then gove johnson or rees-mogg will be in charge of setting out our attitude to human rights, workers rights and unions and the NHS for the forseeable future.

And if that path is truly the only one they see leading to an “eventual” Labour government, then what are they for and whose side are they really on.

EDIT: the unicorns, sorry I forgot the unicorns! Schrodinger’s unicorn brexit thats better than brexit. I feel so much better now that I love the party.

I loved it, for lots of reasons.
For the h8rs who either
a) didn’t get what they expected and didn’t like it OR
b) got exactly what they expected and didn’t like it:
heres an interview with the writers:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/movies/avengers-endgame-questions-and-answers.html

I enjoyed it, but I didn’t realise it was from the same stable as the lobster (watched, regretted much) and sacred deer (started, decided life’s too short, stopped).

I’d watch a movie where Olivia Coleman just had a cup of tea and a biscuit though, so thats probably the difference for me.

alcolepone,
Yup me too.
I’ve not been on facebook for long, or for much, but it would still be inconvenient to leave as it just sucks you back in.
But is that any excuse after what they’ve done?

I just hope that there is some sort of reckoning for political advertising. At this stage a ban on political advertising on social networks would be the best easiest and most effective option.

Theres no real point in getting uptight about the possible implications of the european elections. The parties _can’t_ practically work together enough to have a single “remain” vote. But even if Nige wins more MEPs (which he might) its the numbers of voters that matter more.

VOTE!

Worth a watch, Carole Cadwalladr (pullitzer prize finalist along with the NY times OR mad cat lady according to “not a sexist” A.F. Neil) at TED. HERE
Also worth a watch, Channel 4 news last night. HERE

Jon Snow says theres more to come from Channel 4 this evening.

If only there were some talking points or themes that the official opposition in the UK could use to highlight why Brexit might not be our best interests.

Ho Hum.

What I don’t understand is why people value a rhino above a cow and judge the murderers of the animals differently.
Would you all be glad that a beef farmer was trampled to death by cows (still has an element of kharma)

Morality, you’re doing it wrong.
I value a rhino above not only a cow but also above any human who would kill a rhino. Hope that makes you feel better. I’d also value the life of a cow above the life of someone who would attack and disable it and then maybe chop bits out of its head with a machete while its still alive.

For the record I’m not against hunting deer for food or killing cows and chickens for meat (although I would demand they are treated decently), but I am against killing bluefin tuna for money, rhinos for horn, elephants for tusks, and giant tortoises for buckets (I hope thats not a thing).

Some of these things are not like the others, and proudly building yourself a fundamentalist moral maze is not convincing anyone of your moral superiority (as demonstrated here).

tj,
fractally fscked
(fscked at every possible scale and resolution)

This is karma at its finest.

Agreed. I’m with Ricky Gervais on this.
We should start a tradition that ground poachers cock cures all ills.

Wheras this is whataboutery at its finest:

So rhino poacher gets no sympathy but girl who goes off to live with IS fighters who kill people and then has a kid and wants to come back when the going gets tough does?
Hmmm.

P-Jay +1

dazh

They worked for a while for both main parties in terms of winning elections, and also resulted in some good stuff policy-wise, but ultimately they resulted what we are seeing now.

Well thats the rise of the far right explained in a nutshell that is.
Maybe we should ruin their plans by becoming unelectable and losing the chance to put good policies into practice!

Its the only way to show them who’s willing to lie down and get walked all over.

And that is why you (both) appear to be part of the problem.

People could do much worse than looking at this thread which puts the “brexit in name only” “not really leaving” crowd well in their place. (it was written to educate Piers Morgan, so hes kept it simple).
LINK HERE

dazh

Depressingly, the labour party has now been colonised by the kind of paranoid delusional people who regard pretty much everyone as ‘the enemy’

Binners you doth protest too much.

Meanwhile kerley said:

moderates (read tories)

And that is why you (both) appear to be part of the problem.
You’re like a Dunning-Kruger demonstration applied to politics.

EDIT: It occurs to me that May and Corbyn are better political examples of this, but you are more local.

kerley, dazh,
I’ll just leave this here

Magic Grandad is ignoring the majority of his own supporters.

The notion earlier in the thread that labour would be ignoring “50% of voters” is nonsense when only a minority of labour members and voters support brexit.

If he’s not prepared to face them down and argue against them then he’s no better than May and the ERG.

He has ignored the illegality of the referendum, the majority of his own supporters and his own party policy.

There is no kool aid strong enough for me to see past all that.

In other news .. I feel less boned after last nights shenanigans in parliament. I hope it wasn’t just a dream.

dazh

coming down solidly on one side or the other will basically be electoral suicide

Hows that working out in the polls these days?

Not coming down “on one side or the other” on the biggest political question of the era (in the UK) may not be the best look for a political party.

Just sayin’

dazh,
It became an issue because cameron made it one.
It wasn’t the primary issue people voted on (certainly not a majority of voters).

The point I’m making is less about how we got here, and more about your insistence that voting labour in a general election would get us out of it.

Labour have played both sides for months (years?) to try and keep both remainers and leavers onside for them (or maybe just keep their leader onside?).

You seem to think that they would explicitly select a side for a general election manifesto.

I don’t, and I wouldn’t believe them if they said they had.

I agree we’ve been here before with the lib dems, but you are very mistaken if you think that that was more significant than what labour has done in the recent months.

The lib dems sold some policies to get a referendum on proportional representation. Labour have sold and resold any political capital they had for what?

They reinterpret their “policy” on a minute by minute basis to suit the perceived audience. Its not a good look and its pretty transparent.

They want to ride this wave of pish into downing street, but I hope it throws them on the rocks along with the tories.

dazh

An election with labour standing on a manifesto to give a 2nd vote would be a better option

It would be non specific, Keir would say it, Jeremy would obfuscate it, and only you would believe it.

Thats where we are now.

dazh,

Cameron stood on a manifesto offering an in/out referendum. For some daft reason the people voted him in! Doesn’t really matter why he offered it, if the people didn’t want it they would have voted for someone else.

Fractal pish. It wasn’t in the top 5 (or maybe 10) things people were actually concerned about, and it was only offered to lance the ukip boil.

That comment is on a level with “80% of people voted for brexit supporting parties”, and it demonstrates the problem with hoping that a general election will sort this out.

dazh

Absolutely. I’ve said quite a few times that a second vote is not a bad idea as long as it can be demonstrated that there is public support for one.

Isn’t it labour party policy?………..

dazh,

if the people demand it, then their leaders are duty bound to give them one

Who demanded it?
Some tories looking for to lance a boil and getting an amputation instead?
There was no demand.

seosamh

ideas that Scotland is an EU lifeboat in the short term are hopeful, at best

Yup, thats what I was getting at. Its a distraction and neither likely or useful in the immediate situation.

Even Nicola tweeted this yesterday (for about a minute)
“The Tories’ obsession with independence is becoming quite ridiculous”
from HERE.

I hope we’re going to end up with a long extension, past the EU elections, and a peoples vote.
If we do, then its because the EU is trying to help us above and beyond any help we would offer them if the situation was reversed.

Something has to change in politics. Is direct rule from Brussels an option?

tj & seosamh,
I wasn’t around to follow up my 60/40 figure, but heres the source of the result from progress scotland polling.
Data was accidentally published on the polling site and then removed (for fairly obvious reasons).
Numbers pro and against added up and center group divided by 2.

As you said, they’ve been positively publishing the results from this poll on whether people think there will be another referendum in Scotland, but from these results I don’t think they can say that people want it.

Also, you may ask why there wasn’t a straightforward question on “how would you vote in a new referendum today?”.
It wasn’t even asked, which is strange? (same with wings latest polling).

Anyway, this is just a side note compared with the ongoing bit of a mess in London.

dazh,

May’s climbdown is a massive vindication of labour party policy

Stop saying things like that, I nearly ingested my own tongue.
I admire your indefatigable fanboy attitude, but the magic grandad could probably do worse than to have a chat with Nick Clegg before he wanders in to dealing with the tories.

chewkw,
Yup, should’a stuck with my initial impulse.
TTFN 🙂

molgrips
60/40 AGAINST, not for.
(I confess don’t fully understand that even as someone who doesn’t want independence.. Best explanation might be that more constitutional embuggerance is not seen as a fix for constitutional embuggerance)

On a tangental note, latest independence polling in scotland is running at 60/40 against. (poll for Angus Robertsons “progress scotland”).

Bonners,
Don’t be surprised by ignorance.

Did you miss the fact that there was a “what is a customs union” primer for Conservative MPs in the HoC yesterday?

Don’t be surprised, just be angry.

chewkw
(I know I shouldn’t feed the troll) but you need to know this.
Europe will negotiate after no deal.
But I wonder what the starting point will be? Hmmmmmm.

From the Telegraph Brexit correspondent
HERE

Barnier today stressing that no deal isn’t the end of the process. If/when the UK comes back to table after several months of turmoil, £39bn citizens rights and Irish backstop will be price of admission. Back to where we started, in an even weaker negotiating position.

Thats where no deal puts us. Right back here but in a much weaker and desperate state suffering massive economic damage every day.

Nice plan.

It would be easier to have a discussion about all this if anyone came up with a coherent argument for what will be better if we’re outside the EU.

But noone has, its all “sovereignty” from people who don’t know what the word means, and “free to trade on WTO rules” from people who clearly don’t know the definition of “unelected bureaucracy”.

Darren Grimes (leave con artist and annoying little shit) is on twitter this morning from switzerland describing the ease of crossing the border from the EU, and how therefore the Irish Border isn’t really an issue and people are having to tell him about Schengen.

It’d be easier to have a grown up argument about Europe if we could find a grown up who thought it was a good idea and had a coherent argument.

I’d look at it in the same way as some of the other “cultural” things that have been mentioned.

If someone is part of a culture and accepts certain behaviours, no-one is being harmed, and the people involved don’t mind, then rock on and let your freak flag fly.

But if you suspect that someone is being forced to take part and “culture” is applying pressure to force them to acquiesce and threatening them with consequences for speaking out, then the rest of society should step in and protect them.
(If genuine harm is resulting, all bets are off, and **** your culture)

Many people (why do they have to be intelligent?) are being reasonable and trying not to alienate people, (among remainers see James O’Brien’s speech the other day, or follow Femi on twitter) but no matter how reasonable you are some people will still take it the wrong way, and assume bad faith.

My MIL (an immigrant in her 70s relying solely on UK pension and social services to live and the NHS to stay alive) has to be reminded at least a few times a year that her views immigration would send her back to where she came from, where no health insurance means death.

Her considered view is that if you don’t agree with her, and provide evidence which does not fit with her existing views, then its a personal insult and “like saying she can’t have an opinion”.

I love her dearly, but even after telling her that a significant part of both my and her daughters jobs depends on European funding, she said that “I’d still vote Leave because I don’t know what Europe does for us anyway”.

I suggested that that if that was the case, maybe she should find out, or not vote, but apparently that was very harsh.

Some people are too used to being agreed with. They don’t listen to argument, and they don’t appear to hear anything that they don’t already agree with.

Not sure what argument I’m making here, unless it is to pray for a benevolent dictatorship to protect us from idiots, or an Iain M Banks style AI to come and look after us all.

No dazh,
The reality is that more democracy (due to pressure from the people) is not a denial of democracy.

A majority of people want a second vote. Polls indicate that Remain would win.

I think we all know that polls can be wrong, but on the basis that the majority appear to want a vote, and that the differences between remain and leave are well outside the error bars, exactly whose rights are you arguing for.

Some people need to look up the difference between “advisory” and “binding”.

Advisory is what the referendum was (and why no supermajority or percentage of the electorate was defined to win as would be the case with a binding one).

Parliament decided to treat a non binding referendum as binding.

I guess they could decide to reverse that decision in the face of current events?

Put out a statement saying “We took your advice as far as possible and its all gone wrong.”

Would that be a problem for you dazh & co.?

Cos it shouldn’t 🙂

EDIT: I can see that such an approach would cause issues with “fervent leavers”, but frankly, there is no brexit (or anything else) that would solve their problems anyway.

ransos,
Yes some remainers would have continued to want to ignore the vote no matter what direction brexit took.
But the changing opinions in the voters are at least as much of a reflection of Theresas failure.
As I said, recognising division, trying to resolve it and steering a middle ground soft brexit would have made most of the rancour go away.

But she didn’t do that.

So here we are.

ransos,
I’m not treating leavers as a single entity, but theresa and farage and co. are.
They’ve won and they don’t even give a crap about the views of the majority of their own supporters.

If you believe the polling just after the result probably 10 or 15% (from memory) of leavers would have supported whats on offer now (no deal or out of the single market and customs union).

I make that as 85% of people being ignored (plus those who didn’t vote and should probably be counted as votes for the status quo).

The important question here is how will making everyone poorer help the poor?
How will taking manufacturing jobs out of the middle of relatively deprived areas help anyone?

Remaining without sorting out some of the underlying pish we have in this country would be a massive shame, but leaving like this would just exacerbate the pish.

At least remaining might give us the money (for money read “choice”) to solve some of the problems, although as always whether we use it for that or not is another matter.

A soft brexit, as I mentioned above, could have been nearly as good as remain, and brought people together, but thats not on the table (even the unobtainable labour brexit plan [codename unicorn 1] isn’t that).

It’s winner takes all, the middle ground has gone.
And “Remoaners” didn’t make it that way.

You have to decide if you support the people who didn’t respect the views of remainers OR leavers.
Or support remain.

Those are the choices available.

tj +1

If Theresa’s latest claim is to be representing views of the people (against an intransigent parliament), maybe she should ask the people if they agree?