ampthill… I did once… and i regret it… i questioned it at the time, I did it, and now i think i shouldnt have. It was a £50 light 4 or 5 years ago. As I have said I am not perfect. I genuinely think it was wrong for me ( a personal judgment on myself ) to do it.

As i’ve said i am not against our current model of production, that means manufacturing in china. I have nothing against the chinese people (lots against the state) the chinese people will really not suffer if we are selective in the type of goods we buy. Our manufacturing in their country has secured a strong internal economy. I think I have been clear this isn’t about boycotting, its about making choices. Thinking what products support the kind of economy we have constructed. Perosnally I think MTB products is one such product niche.

njee really not telling anyone what to do… just putting across a view.

warpcow… it was never me that said they should gain westerness… I was replying to someone else. But I’ll give my take on it anyway, I’m not a great fan of laissez faire capitalism as part of western culture, but enlightenemt, cultural liberalism, democracy, human rights, freedom of speech. Whilst none of these are exclusive to western culture and by no means whole heartedly adhered to by western culture. They have been championed by it and developed by it over generations via philosophy and politics. If top trumps were the game i’d say that was pretty good. Your turn, lets hear your take on Communist Chinas gifts to the world?

hands up… writing too fast…

richard they are very far from being shut off and are large enough to create their own internal economy, right now they are net exporters, so they take from global trade not add to it. The west really is on the wrong end of this stick. I am just talking about holding back the flood. Keeping something for ourselves so we can be competitive in the future. you dont have to worry about china not rising even if you took my view. That horse has long bolted. Staying competitive is still possible. But only if we get what is going on.

They really wont gain westerness, they have a restricted internet, if you think our media is biased and controlled, well… I promise you this will not happen they will not become western by osmosis…

The state is embedded everywhere. You really can’t imagine. This isnt NSA level snooping (they have that twenty fold) this is people on the street. If you say something wrong on social meida over there you will be picked out. This thread I am writing wouldnt exist.

My point also is none of this is set in stone, the future isnt written. I am saying my personal response is to do what I can to support uk people or products by either buying new or second hand. I think there is nothing wrong with thinking before you buy. I am just questioning what seems to be becoming the status quo. I am by no means perfect, but I do the best I can. Again, my values dont need to be the same as yours, but if it has made anyone think about it then I think thats cool… Whatever you do i hope you enjoy the your ride… 😉

dangeourbrain do you think China will let us rebuild when we collapse. Do you think their business model will be as liberal as ours has? They don’t believe in liberal economics or globalisation. I want to state this really isn’t a rant about the chinese people as a race. This is about the chinese political and cultural system created by the communist system, decade upon decade. Do you know children in class rooms can be used to report on other children. This isn’t hear say.

dbcooper… The increase in prosperity in china will only increase the strength of the political system. Its naive to think the workers will rise up. As Russias economy has grown it has been easier for putin to drage russia back to repression. As for reds under the bed its the wrong example. That describes communists infiltrating western societies. The facts on the ground are the communist regime is china is growing stronger and more powerful, not weaker. To think this is some west vs east ideology that has no relevence today shows a very short sighted view of history. Its an incovenient truth, but a truth. I no someone who has worked in china for 2 years. I understand a little, only a little of their views of the west. They are not generally friendly. To think they are all growing up waiting to become western is a falicy. Have you seen protest in china when japan is seen to do something wrong? It puts xenophobia in this country in to perspective.

So my points are two fold.

1) Buying british or western products (not manufacturing) may well support head of CRC in his BMW (sorry head of CRC) but it will also support his employees and the larger UK economy as a whole. So it supports your family and friends in the long run.

2)It supports a political system, though not perfect, that is democratic.

lastly, to think that chinese people can’t support theyre own economy by buying their own products is frankly patronising. They can buy there own products, they can raise their own living standards. The west movement of manufacturing to china has already done this. It is a fake argument to use this as a reason to buy chinese products direct.

If i cant buy it new i buy second hand (money in to UK economy direclty). There is nothing wrong with waiting for things. It an old fashioned concept, but one the chinese would very much approve of, and view the west as foolish for not having.

My point is you cripple the UK economy bit by bit and you strengthen a communist regime. I question how right that is. Your choice is yours, but I personally think it is a wrong choice. Secondly and something that you can’t avoid is that the material effect is a decline in the wealth and political (democratic) power of this country. To say there is nothing you can do to stop it isnt true. All the small choices add up. To simply give in, well…

njee… i have stated a few times… it is obvious these products are manufactured abroad. That is the modern western production model.

njee my point is clear… dyson work on the same model as all the mtb brands, manufacture abroad, manage, design, engineer, market in the UK.

A large part of the uk economy works on this model. So if you buy direct you break the model you break the uk economy. Like a building one corner implodes you’ll be lucky the rest doesnt go with it.

You say they are too expensive. all of your jobs are too expensive, thats the game. All of your jobs can be replaced.

Talking about UK manufacturing companies is different to talking about uk products. My title says products not manufacturing.

Im not just talking about the UK. I am talking about europe and america. Both of which we have strong trade relationships with. Hell, even south america or other countries in the east asian region that have democracies.

hahaha… well it seems my question has been answered. No one really seems to care.

Good luck to saracen, orange, hope, planet x etc…

Its so obvious that manufacturing is done abroad. Its really not a point worth making. Planet x will direclty and indirectly employ more than 10 people. Planet x are not the only company in the UK and bikes are not the only products in the UK. So with many companies still owned in the UK and controlling manufacturing abroad, there are 10’s of thousands of jobs in the UK that are at risk. The service sector in the UK will not last long without some manufacturing base. If you take away the companies that control the brands you take away an important piece of the model and the model starts to break. How many people do Dyson employ? Yet they manufacture abroad.

I’m really not a troll, I think it is really worth serious consideration. This is what is happening in the real world. I understand wanting other economies to grow but what economies? To separate economies from political influence is foolish. Your not buying from any old economy you are buying from Communist China. The west isnt great, but is hasnt a patch PRC. The wage inflation story is relative. The wages are still way below the west as the communist party has greater control. Western bike companies may exist now. But do you think they will exist in 20 years time. you guys are leading the way on mtb culture. Once joe public see you riding a huwei, they will buy a huwei. I am really not trolling. I am making a real argument. One with many valid points. I want a cheap carbon all mountain frame. But I will wait and buy second hand till i can afford one. My choice I know. But I think a valid one and one better for my children.

Well basically with that atitude we are stuffed. You might as well all turn the lights out now. The import duty argument doesn’t wash as it would create a trade war with china. Something the west isnt capable of doing. As for why keep the profit margins of design and development with the UK? Well it keeps those highly skilled jobs in the UK as simple as that. At least while UK companies have some control over working conditions in china then the workers get some rights. A solely chinese manufactured product will not be controlled at all. Or you could just wash your hands of all of it and buy what you want. Feed at the trough till you cant waddle away. Lets all buy cheap cheap cheap and not expect it to affect our lives.

Well i think you will soon find the western elite will pale in to insignificance compared to the chinese elite. Not caring about where your stuff comes from is about not caring about your future. To think this wont affect you in the next 20 years is crazy. Your self gratifiction now will have ramifications in 20 years time. You wont escape the change. Your job will be at risk. The UK economy is a large ecosystem that you cant escape. To think that you are bucking capitalism by buying from china is completely wrong. You are just fueling an even less regulated less egalitarian regime and you are increasing the chance of them having dominion over you in 30 or 40 years time.

You seem to be happy or resigned to the wests decline. As for the regulation of working conditions abroad, many western companies do insist on better. But then if people like you are buying chinese products direct the chinese companies that side step these conditions will undercut the western companies that pay more for better conditions. So that argument is flawed. I do think china should develop and it is, but unfairly. Its an artificial economy based on oppresion of the population. The chinese government should be legisalating for better working conditions but it doesnt. It uses its population to fuel its ecomony. You are advocating a race to the bottom. Buying chinese products doesnt help the people there that want freedom from a communist system. It strengthens the political system. Its almost impossible for customs to police everything.

I can’t afford brand new bikes either so I just buy second hand western bikes. Bit by bit, if people start buying products from china in the engineering product categories then western jobs will go. It will be quite a swift move to deflation in the UK, lower wages and lower living standards. Ultimately a weaker economy and a weaker state. Then countries like China will have steadily more and more power over the west. This is Communist China remember, look at Hong Kong right now. I may not be popular for saying any of this and it may seem over dramatic. But it is a very likely outcome. Santa Cruz do have some crazy prices, but there are other western brands that are more reasonable. Are import duties paid on any of these goods?

I get that most stuff is made there, but not engineered and sold from there too. They are basically stealing ideas and avoiding patents and putting people out of work in the europe and america. It just seems the sort of industry that should be kept alive in the west. Its a little more complicated than buying a cheap bike, it will have long term effects.

So does this mark the end of western engineering and bike manufacturing?

cool I’ll look at Tredz…

acsevens can I ask where you got one for £70, an RSP that is…

Northwind have to say a hear, hear…. mountain biking has very seriously got me through some quite stressfull times in the past. Only yesterday I had a crappy conversation at work that got me a bit pee’d off. A good wet blast this morning on alderbrook copse and winterfold has cleared my head and my soul. It should be prescribed on the NHS.

I buy second hand all the way… it can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be. BB’s, chain, sprocket every now and then. I doubt you get much more fun out of it spending, that comes from ability and learning. At the same time if people have fun spending money on it thats damn nice and cool too… nothing wrong with spending money on something you love and gives you joy.

There was a great article in Dirt about a UK kid living in france who rode his bike in to the ground and just kept riding it, I think even without a chain at one point (a bit easier in france though).

Drac the kids thing knocked me for six for a couple of years… It will come back. A rest is no bad thing. But you know it will just take one little spark to catch that fire again! One little moment out on the trail.

ton im bookmarking this thread… just looking at the title makes me smile…

scaled I know what your saying, same past. But It doesnt even come close to that moment you get your flow on. Riding a mountain bike is like nothing else I have done. I used to race motocross bikes as a kid at club level. Don’t get me wrong I loved it. But would never go back. The beauty of a wooded rooted trail is sublime. Warm golden sun shining through the trees on a late afternoon. The birds have quietened down. Maybe the odd squirrel leaping a gap to break the silence. Then there is that fern lined trail inviting, twisting out of site in to a fresh pine forest, asking you to see where it leads. Christ I LOVE RIDING! I’ve seriously started considering having a little salute to the trail before each ride a bit like they do in judo. (hahah i sound crazy). FLOW FLOW and more FLOW, bring it on.

oh… I’d normally say around £200 for a medium prophet, but its a large… seem harder to get hold of, I have a medium…

doh… didnt think of doing a whois…

I’m looking at a prophet for £320, ive got them down a bit. It does look in very good nick, not much wear around the geometry adjust points. I would normally say £250 would be a good price for this. But it would be posted. So I am thinking it might be £30-£40 over the odds.

Yeah I’ve never seen a business model like it either. But I have often been on ebay and thought how much a bike would be worth stripped down.

Without wanting to get too Zen. Lifes full of mistakes, you learn from them move on (haha its so easy to say that to somone else isnt it, but it is still true). Your still here fit well, not in a hospital in Sierra Leone (god forbid). Guys on here spend thousands on bikes so in the big scheme of things its not a huge mistake (thats all relative though i suppose, i would be quite gutted with a £400 loss). Throughout your life it will seem like an insignificant amount of money though.

Wouldnt a half way house be a 29’er mtb singular or something like that?

cheers Northwind… will go for the tube option…

Cheers Welshfarmer… twas as simple as that. I’m delighted. Or at least i was until i went for a ride and i realised just going tubless wasn’t going to make me up to XC pro standards. Now all my hopes have been dashed. You may say my expectations were too high, but i like to think the technology has let me down once again. Always blame the tools!

So I’m learning all the time, saw a youtube watsit and it said you need to carry around a bit of kit. like a tubless repair kit, co2, a tyre boot and a spare tube? Is all this necessary? or is the repair kit and co2 enough?

I think I’m lucky in that the 2nd hand XT’s I bought dont seem to need rim tape, they seem sealed all around the rim (no holes for spokes just blank metal) and they already come with valves. Do I need to do all this washing up liquid business I’ve seen? And do i have to use stans sealant? I’ve got some I just wondered if they would seal on their own seeing as the wheels and purgatories are tubless ready? I can hear eyes rolling at the tubless newbie questions! 😉

There are alternatives that may (I stress may) bring education costs down. MOOC’s are growing in popularity and the technology makes the long distance learning alternative more viable and appealing. Adults less engaged in new technology may find it hard to acclimatise but kids will find it more ‘normal’.

To update, I had a look and did like the look of the Smorgasbord but found it difficult to know what weight and type i was getting with their tyre chooser… so opted to pop to evans and do the specialized amnesty. So now have a nice new pair of purgatories at a very good price, so thanks all for your help. I’ve now got to fathom how this stans sealant works when it comes in the post! yikes!…

cheers chaps… thats a great help. I might do a bit more looking for tubless ready, but the speshy deal does look good. I’ll try and find a dealer doing it.

cool cheers I’ll have a google for the specialized…

I’ve not tried them but I think this company near me (cranleigh, surrey) do powder coating as well as teflon coating http://www.fluoroprecision.co.uk/ teflon coating

Cheers Horatio, so you can’t get arrested then. Spacemonkey to be honest i thought winterfold was abstract enough for only those that know… maybe not, but i cant edit now…

so they are completely illegal then?

Sorry in England and wales…