For those talking about the turbo warming up… I hadn’t realised / thought about this before – does it affect anything during the time it takes to warm it up/stablise? I’ve just got a power meter so I predict even more evil in my training plan now. 😕

OP it seems as simple to me as making sure you eat something before these rides. I struggle to see how that will put weight on you.

+1. A double espresso and banana is a good energy boost for intervals IME. I doubt very much in your 1st season of racing it’ll be your weight that holds you back from race results and improvements.

Also, not sure what your training is for crits/sprints, but are you recovering properly and for long enough between sets? A sprint training session is way more anaerobic than a 100km ride so you need to have good glycogen stores to do it properly.

If you want to train and race well, eat more (but good stuff). For me, there comes a time where i need to eat more (as training intensity goes up in the build period) and its a case of maintaining my weight rather than trying to lose any more. Base miles ie October – December for the traditional road racer who races March – Sept is best time to lose weight and much easier too.

during crit/sprint type rides, jelly legs after 50 mins to an hour

Maybe you just aren’t used to doing this either?

Mines on average 199, but drops a bit when I’m unfit to 185, and I can push it to 210 when I’m feeling superfit.

Joe Friels suggests it should be the opposite – max HR drops when trained.

That’s been my personal experience too for max HR.

Track and road in equal measures due to the speed of racing. Then mtb. Not sure why i looked at this thread *pukey face*

778miles for me from 1 – 31 January, mostly on the road but includes intervals on the turbo/rollers. Was surprised by this as i train to hours not miles so have never paid much attention before but a quick flick through training peaks indicates this is normal mileage for me. More about consistent training than any epic rides though, longest ride was 5.5hours.

I use The Protein Works for whey, or Good Hemp Nutrition for my hemp protein shake. I prefer hemp to whey but the g of protein is much less.

200g seems like a shed load to want to take though, unless you are vegan?

Protein shakes do work, esp if you have a big training load or don’t eat meat.

how do I continue to train without killing myself.

Get a coach, seriously. I’d be lost without mine – he has knowledge and experience that no internet / joe friel type plan can match, and he tweaks my plan depending on how i’m feeling too.

I can’t remember if i have said this before, but it apparently takes 3 seasons to be “good” at racing…i think its a combination of getting a good base, top end and experience. My 2nd season was a lot better than my first, 108 BC points / 25th 2nd cat in the UK but some way off my goal of getting my 1st cat as i had to take some time out of racing after getting Lymes disease, but i was able to race pros and full time riders by the end of the season without getting my arse handed to me on a plate. It takes time, patience, hard work (some nights i can’t decide if i want to be sick or cry or both on the turbo), consistency and knowing WHAT to do in training otherwise its just a waste of time. It doesn’t matter how fast you can ride solo for road racing, you just need the tactics, ability to suffer and instinct about where to ride in the bunch/moves to go with but this doesn’t come over night. Or be a great tester and ride of the front to win 🙂

Don’t underestimate base fitness – before i started racing i had no base but worked hard on getting one in 2012-13 and it made a massive difference to my racing and training.

Noted – I’ll try the short Stem but still have the 100 to go back on if I don’t like it/want to be more agressive.

I doubt stem length would make a difference to being more aggressive (confident more likely) being able to ride on the drops 100% of a race would be better (if you can’t already – and obviously i don’t mean for long climbs)

If you find there’s not enough weight on the front, you could try a negative rise stem or dropping your stem a bit? My -17 is slammed too which helps a lot although i’d check with your fitter first before making changes.

From a more critical perspective, an 80mm stem suggests that either you aren’t very flexible, or that you have a bike that has a top tube that is a bit too long.

Nonsense!! I have a short torso / arms and long legs so need the short stem. No issues with being unflexible – run a -17 stem and my drop is 8cm, and I’d like more drop but a -25stem looks, well, like my bars are falling off! Both the TT on my winter and race bike are the same length but one has a 80 and the other a 90 but my contact points are exactly the same, the geometry and headcap is different.

And no way does the bike increase your power.

A proper bike fit will though by being set up to your flexibility etc etc and recruiting all the muscles needed. When I had mine done there was a massive difference to how strong I felt.

OP, switching to the 80mm stem (previously i had 90) made the bike initially so twitchy (especially now my new race bike is lighter), but I got used to it. However, i don’t really like it for very technical crit courses tbh, but then i don’t really like racing crits either 🙂

ERC are great, everyone was very friendly and welcoming to me. I made lots of new friends and Lightman used to tow me back to the chaingang on his mtb when i got dropped on the climbs on Tuesday nights 🙂

Go with the ONLY official ERC ride which is the 9.50 development run which will have small numbers and teach you to chaingang, then work your way up the groups. The chaingangs won’t stop if you get dropped or have a mechanical btw but the development run will, as will the social sunday ride (which is slow).

As for the other comments, i’ve heard similar but its like banging your head off the wall – the rides you see aren’t ERC official rides, yes there’s some ERC riders in there but there’s lots of other clubs that join the chaingangs too. In the summer when i’m out more often with the club i have never seen more than 2 abreast.

are these kind of road races fun

yes, most fun you can have on a bike imo 😀

Its a steep learning curve IME, you might find certain courses suit you better than others but you find this out the hard way through racing lots on a variety of courses. You won’t find out much though if you go in tired – rest day 2 days before the race, then day before spin out your legs easy. Decent warm up of around 20mins on the turbo or rollers, gel on the start line.

With your intervals/TT etc before hand you effectively tried to do a stage race without the fitness/race knowledge and experience to back that up effectively.

Depending on how long you’ve been training for, it might just be you aren’t fit enough at the moment (no bad thing if you are looking to race on a regular basis til September IMO).

I think road racing attracts a certain type of personality too – you have to be able to pick yourself up from getting dropped and keep going back for more no matter how humiliating it is (my coach and i got my taper badly wrong for the British National RR Champs which had Lizzie Armistead and the Wiggle Honda team in it, i got dropped before i should have and raced the remainder of the race in a 2 up round Glasgow city centre with EVERYONE i knew watching, it was so humiliating for me as my legs were simply too rested to work but i learnt a lot from that experience and came out of it stronger in the long run). Try things out, make mistakes and learn, all the time.

schmiken – good blog, liek the energy bar recipe. Your sponsored by beet it? Did you approach them or vice versa?

Mine is mostly training and road racing related. http://pescetarianrevolutions.wordpress.com

Dont racers have down time anymore?

Yes, but usually depends when your season starts / ends. I’m in the build period now so will be training like its just another day, but I like training and it wouldn’t be Xmas without getting out on the bike! I’d be out riding even if I wasn’t racing. 🙂

Lol @ Jamie

Racing is the most fun you can have on your bike, aside from chaingangs. 8) My highlight of the year was standing on the start line next to Lizzie Armistead and the Wiggle Honda team 😀

As others have said, learn how to chaingang and get used to riding close to others, avoid bad wheels, stay off the brakes, don’t half wheel, don’t touch your garmin or get distracted, hold your line in corners and don’t move suddenly without communicating, gels are your best friend in a race, use your drops if you can – less chance of bars getting locked if contact happens, and stay near the front if possible.

Your first one will be a shock to the system i’d imagine, especially if you pick the first race of the season to start – they are generally a little more nervous and twitchy than later in the season. The pace will vary depending on course and weather. Depending on the lead car driver(s) you may have a nicely paced neutralised start, or an eye balls out start, and even more eye balls out effort once the flag goes down. I’ve lost count of the crashes i’ve seen in the neutralised start. Oh, and warm up well too, turbo or rollers are better than riding on the road.

Crits are totally different to road racing, sprint, corner, sprint, corner and repeat for 40+mins!

If you are a vet, you can race the vet categories which (ime as they put women in with vets for some races, and i think the men’s vet categories start with 40+ and then 50-70+) is far safer than 4th cat RRs and a totally different race experience. I’ve raced with the 40+ and 50-70+ there’s a little difference in speed (but that might just be weather/course profile) and there’s some blooming fit old guys!

I use my rollers all year round, even in the middle of summer when its a lovely day (just take them into the garden). I think you get more out of it in terms of a 1.5-2hour session is constant pedalling whereas outside you’d have traffic lights/change of pace in traffic and so on. I don’t know if the intervals themselves are more consistent or not – but will get a better idea when i switch to power 😀 I think you learn more doing them outside though, even if the intervals aren’t 100% consistent.

I had a chat with my coach recently about indoor training. I had some 20sec sprints to do and just couldn’t judge how long that was on the turbo/rollers without looking at my garmin, whereas outside i can judge roughly 300m or whatever. He said outside we do small things without thinking about it which can = more power / an easier perceived effort which made sense to me.

Go for a drop bar road bike. I have a flat bar one for commuting on so i can use studded tyres in winter and there’s no way it’d be as fun, fast or comfy for proper road miles.

Most winter bikes will be reasonably heavy anyway so less twichy than a full on race bike if you have worries about using the drops. But there’s nothing to worry about using the drops if the bike fits you properly – and compact bars are ace. 8)

I know because you post on mostly the same threads I do and you always have a comment about racing/training and so on.

No. I’m still none the wiser!

er no, i didn’t. go on then, enlighten me!

edit, ha, i mis-read your post completely to read that we knew off each other. IGMC and go for coffee. 🙂

As above yes but a lot of wear and IME it slips lots so I switched to a turbo specific tyre. As you are now getting coached / racing next year, you might find yourself on it more anyway – I definately think twice about riding outside when its icy as a bad fall now would be a disaster for racing next year / waste of all my blood, sweat and tears! 🙂

I’m currently undertaking some Road BC training. The don’t recommend anything that draws blood way form the muscles as this reduces potential performance. The recommend baby oil rub in well – keeps the heat in, water off and doesn’t affect your ability.

I’ve heard that before. Its not really during thats an issue (when it was really bad in Ireland i wore leg warmers and a good warm up on the rollers helps too), but its the fact that my legs get so cold during a cold/wet race that it affects recovery for the next day (same in training too) My coach suggested vaseline, but everything will stick to that! And yes, i know wtfu. 🙂 Sorry for the thread hijack!

Embrocation, very hot embrocation.

swedish chef, any recommendations / tried and tested? I need to get some.

I think you forget about the conditions when racing, at least i do when in a bunch. Nothing i’d hate more than a muddy xc race and that’s why i’m 100% roadie these days. 😀

I’m in blue, 2nd wheel back on the attack 🙂

And in my old club kit attacking uphill again. With a freaky arm muscle too 😕

we’ve got a delonghi although not the one your looking at. makes a decent espresso with a crema…definately doesn’t taste as good as my local coffee shop, despite the same beans. i want an expensive coffee machine at home 😕

If its just a z2 ride, then i do about 5mins in z1, then into z2. For racing or intervals, i do a 20 min warm up on the rollers which if i didn’t do, i’d probably be dropped in the neutralised start of the race, or not hit my first interval properly. I just feel rubbish if i go from nothing to race pace in seconds. A 10min cool down on the rollers helps my legs recover for the next day too.

If i was just riding my bike then i wouldn’t warm up in the same way.

standing is obviously not possible on ’em

Standing on the rollers is easily do-able.

I have both rollers with resistance and the kurt kinetic rock and roll turbo – turbo chosen because it allows movement and engages core etc. Its fluid and very quiet. My rollers are used all year round – even on sunny days.

Echo all the comments above about it being hot / needing a fan / block for the front wheel.

But whilst the turbo/rollers is mind numbing for zone 2 (base) work, it has its place in proper training IMO/E – ie z1 recovery spin or very focused efforts. You will need to have a plan for the turbo, be that sufferfest or your own intervals etc.

You can’t compare your MHR to anybody else, everyone is different

This. Plus also the fitter you are, the lower your max HR becomes (joe friel did a blog post about this recently if you are interested)

Use to just do a normal non-night time one, but been trying the night time one. Can’t really say I’ve noticed much difference other than it tastes a lot worse! (Been using the SIS one.)

Yeah i’ve heard they taste rubbish. I tried torq recovery plus for about 4 /5 months this summer (racing pretty much weekly), it has to be the worst sports drink i’ve ever tried (it works however)

The way the protein thing was put to me is that all the studies about the protein consumed with carbs are done on endurance athletes but a 2 hour road race (or similar) isn’t endurance so the protein is the most important to consume within 15mins of stopping exercise. Carbs from real food.

Also, some chocolate milks aren’t exactly great – yazoo for example, has cellulose in it! 😯

And to whoever was asking about non dairy versions. I’m off dairy atm, but can tolerate some types of whey so worth trying a few. Otherwise hemp protein with a shot of cherry juice is my usual post exercise option. However, hemp tastes rank – its gritty and looks like swamp water. Mix it coconut water or a little fruit juice with water to make it taste nicer. Other non dairy ones would be rice or pea protein. I’ve looked into both in the past but settled on hemp.

For me, protein shake after every training session, including recovery rides. Get carbs from real food.

Started using the night time protein things before bed too which I feel is beneficial (train quite late in the evenings, definitely helps with sleep and I reckon it helps legs feel better the next day too.)

+1 although i don’t train that late in the evenings. And mines not a night time specific one, but same principal 🙂 Have you tried a non night time one mrblobby before bed to see if there’s any diff?

IIRC protein during exercise is meant to slow down muscle damage / protect muscles from damage.

By chance this appeared on my twitter feed this afternoon.
http://support.trainerroad.com/entries/22366164-Traditional-Base-All-the-Gory-Details

Not that relevant to the OPs q but base training related 🙂 My plan seems to be a mix of base (z2 long rides), strength, recovery rides plus seriously nasty sounding high intensity sessions…but then i have the time and my goals are road racing and longer stage races (ie 5 days)

mrbloody – sounds like you might be after the sweet spot base mentioned briefly here? http://support.trainerroad.com/entries/22378304-Base-Training-Q-A

How long would you normally train for a mara for? The usual 16 week prog? With one or two easy weeks after the puffer (assuming you are racing to win it) plus a taper, you’d be eating into your running specific training quite a bit.

Don’t under-estimate the time needed to recover from travel either – puffer might not be that far away, but it’ll add to the fatigue/recovery time.

Getting nutrition/hydration and sleeping right would be key which i think you might struggle with 😛 btw, after months of badgering by my coach, i gave in and now use protein shakes for recovery – i’m amazed at the difference in my recovery and muscle tone. i’d recommend upping your protein especially after running to help with recovery, and have one before bed too. A good base (z2) should also speed up recovery time between races (that’s my experience anyway!)

Anyone got any good resources to read about base training on the turbo?

Try not to use the turbo for base would be my opinion!! I’m being coached and therefore don’t use sufferfest or the likes, but my base training is all done outside for sanity – turbo kept for mid week intensity/recovery rides. I have some done some z2 stuff for fat burning on the turbo – even with a dvd on, its boring as hell and actually way harder than outside.

I have both rollers with resistance and the kurt kinetic rock and roll turbo. Both get used weekly, even in summer time. Love them both for different reasons, the rock and roll is natural compared to some turbos.

I did my first “practice” road race today (a sportive taken seriously) based on having learned my numbers and doing a practise run last weekend.

Out of interest, why are you doing this? IME nothing beats RR experience / training like a proper road race, it’ll be far more sprinty and changes in pace than any sportive could throw at you.

Edit, oh and OP, not sure of the best way for max hr other than hard as you can uphill, but i think the best way to find threshold is the standard Joe Friel 20min test.

Always wear HRM when racing (road) but never look at it during the race, only go over the data afterwards. The only time I look at it during a race is if its a stage race with a TT so i can stay at my threshold for the TT and still be able to race later in the day.

Wearing a HRM without knowing your zones properly is a bit pointless as then you won’t know your threshold for training at it. The 220 – age formula doesn’t work for working out max hr – i’m 33, my max is 200 (achieved only in a ramp test). The fitter you are = higher threshold too.

Steve McQueen esque?
“Racing is life, anything before or after is just waiting”

Love this! I’m wishing my life away until my 2014 season starts.

Entertaining thread too 🙂

Raced in a peloton of 105 including elites, pros & full time riders from all over the world. Was riding so well that I didn’t recognise myself & even got into a small group of 10 or so off the front of the bunch. 🙂