Went for a few laps today,

Pleased to hear you’re on the mend.

btw … for those with a bit of Fernie Love/Stoke:

Great pictures Bikebouy!

I’m off to Fernie for a while on Tuesday to get some good old Fernie face shots

Have a fantastic time! Fernie is one of my favourite places to ride!

And yes it does get cold there. Got a little frost nip there one year right on the very end of my toes wearing a pair of boots with integrated liners in -22 celcius!

Nowhere near as bad as yours whatnobeer. Which reminds me – how are the toes? Any change in colour? Hope they are making a good recovery. Are you keeping a ‘photo diary’ of them? :-)

I use the ‘Yoga for Cyclists’ DVD a couple of books and various online resources incl http://www.yoga.com. Thanks for the suggestion doug – I’ll have a look at Ryan Leech’s stuff.

When searching for online yoga sources I came across ‘Naked Yoga’ … i wasn’t aware that was even a ‘thing’! ;-)

I keep meaning to try and get to a local yoga class, as I’m conscious that I just do the yoga poses that I like, so I’m perhaps not being as comprehensive as I could be. Plus it would be good to get some advice in case I’m not doing a pose correctly etc … I can’t always see myself properly in the ceiling mirror above the bed! ;-)

you have conceded there is no evidence

On the contrary – I previously stated that ‘I have’ no other evidence – not that there wasn’t any. I don’t have evidence regarding the efficacy of chemotherapy treatments for cancer, but that doesn’t mean that peer reviewed research doesn’t exist if I haven’t googled it.

I just hadn’t had the time to search for it. It turns out that there are numerous case studies, however like a lot of academic/medical research some it is behind a pay-wall. Not all of it though.

If you can find anything that shows stretching has any benefit at all I would like to see it.

On this and other threads regarding running/stretching you have repeatedly asked for any ‘evidence’ regarding benefits of stretching. I have now provided some (you could have done some research yourself, but I guess that’s not quite your style). You have chosen to dismiss the information, which is your prerogative.

I can provide just as many links to sites saying exactly the opposite.

But you won’t will you? … sadly it seems that you would rather be aggressive and deliberately argumentative on this and other threads whenever the subject of stretching comes up.

Stop evangelising, If you have “faith” in stretching fine but dont waste anybody elses time.

At no point have I ever ‘proselytised’ in an attempt to ‘convert’. On the contrary, I was just providing my own experiences as were other people. I’m quite prepared to accept that there are alternative view points. You on the other hand seem to take delight in calling ‘bullshit’ every time stretching is mentioned.

Disappointingly your attitude comes across as condescending and patronising with your repeated dismissal of many peoples own personal experiences insinuating that they have ‘imagined’ them.

Bad day again? Need a hug? Still not got rid of your cold?

Peer reviewed research such as in the links I provided is designed to prevent dissemination of irrelevant findings, unwarranted claims, unacceptable interpretations, and personal views.

Of course you are entitled to your own opinions based on your own experiences, but please can I respectfully ask that this is reciprocated.

Streching can have some benefits, but is it for everyone?

Stretching has [quite rightly] come under close scrutiny in the past few years.

Many parts of the media (both sporting & mainstream) have adopted a critical stance on stretching. However this is perhaps slightly misleading. To summarise:

Don’t stretch before exercise
Stretching is unlikely to prevent injury
Stretching can help if you have movement/flexibility issues
Stretching can help injury rehab

The human body is sometimes described as a ‘System of Systems’.

It is therefore unlikely that any single ‘therapy’ in isolation will aid recovery or rehab. This is the reason that most rehab involves multiple elements such as foam roller, stretching, ultrasound, manipulation, deep tissue massage, strength & conditioning etc. Some will inevitably work better for some people than others.

@surfer … you have been asking [quite aggressively if I may say so] for evidence that stretching helps rehab on this and other threads.

Here again is the link I provided:

The role of stretching in rehabilitation of hamstring injuries

Other articles are also available in the same link.

Given that by your own admission, your stretching was done pre and post exercise rather than as part of an injury rehab etc, then yes, it is perfectly possibly that all that time spent with your leg raised on a hurdle was a waste and could have been spent doing something more constructive … like being aggressive and argumentative on a cycling forum.

And regarding your continued assertion that muscles don’t stretch:

How about typing ‘child-birth’ into ‘YouTube’? Plenty of evidence of muscles, tendons & ligaments stretching and lengthening …

As Bill Shankley Surfer infamously misquoted said “its not life or death. Its more important than that”

HTH

there really isn’t much evidence that says stretching helps reduce the chance of injury

@ahwiles – to the best of my knowledge no one on this thread has ever suggested that there was – mogrim commented that a visit to a physio would probably result in strengthening and stretching exercises. The dialog was concerned with the OP’s rehab rather than injury prevention.

Physio recommended stretching for rehab was then described as a ‘myth’ as there is no evidence apparently:

A quick google shows the following:

The role of stretching in rehabilitation of hamstring injuries

A couple of other snippets:

The Stretching Debate

CURRENT CONCEPTS IN MUSCLE STRETCHING FOR EXERCISE AND REHABILITATION[/url]

If you can’t be bothered to read any of them (and I don’t blame you!)

The ‘take-home’ message appears to be:

Don’t stretch before exercise
Stretching is unlikely to prevent injury
Stretching can help if you have movement/flexibility issues
Stretching can help injury rehab

Thats a contraction not a stretch.

Semantics – The stretch reflex (myotatic reflex) is a muscle contraction in response to stretching within the muscle

Muscles aren’t “lengthened” they relax which gives the impressions they are stretched!

Various definitions & descriptions of Eccentric Contractions refer to ‘Muscle Actively Lengthening’ again … semantics

That must be through habit as you havent been able to provide evidence beyond the anecdotal

I concede that I have no other evidence apart from anecdotal, but what I have tried to put forward to the OP is that I too have had various knee/running injuries/issues etc and I found that physio recommended exercises that incorporated stretches were beneficial in aiding my recovery and allowing me to continue running. Other people have recounted similar experiences. This anecdotal evidence may not be enough for you, but they are based on ‘real world experiences’ as is your own perfectly valid opinion that stretching did nothing for you. But just because it didn’t work for you doesn’t mean that the collective work of physio/sports therapists and successful athletes etc that incorporate stretching is based on a myth.

What I don’t have is access to a peer reviewed scientific study that isolates stretching from any other form of rehab to prove beyond reasonable doubt the efficacy of stretching in physio therapy. This is probably because successful rehab is unlikely to be based on one element alone – rather it is likely to be multi-faceted and also include numerous intangible factors including the possibility of placebo and the general well-being of the individual.

And as I’ve tried to illustrate, various physio exercises will contain an element of muscle ‘stretching’ so to dismiss it outright as “unsubstantiated rubbish” is perhaps disingenuous.

But anyway, like I said earlier this has become Cartesian …

I wish the OP luck with his rehab.

Not the same as “stretching” as being discussed / dismissed…..

To recap ‘stretching’ was first mentioned on page 1:

Physio would be a good starting point, he/she will probably recommend rest, ice, then leg strengthening and stretching.

a few posts later, at the bottom of the page surfer dismissed stretching as a ‘myth’ and then went on to describe it as “unsubstantiated rubbish”

… so to my mind the ‘stretching’ element of physio recommended exercises (and their close similarity to yoga positions etc) is exactly what is being discussed/dismissed – at no point have myself or anyone else advocated stretching before exercise etc …

“Eccentric actions place a stretch on the sarcomeres to the point where the myofilaments may experience strain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccentric_training

Mmm … at best I think this has become Cartesian …

think you risk credibility by trying to compare some of these treatments to Stretching

On the contrary I think my aim was to try and put forward a balanced and nuanced discussion rather than your outright dismissal of ‘stretching’ per se:

Never has a piece of unsubstantiated rubbish been repeated more on any thread about running

Is the comment that really prompted my response as I felt that the OP and others should not necessarily dismiss outright all aspects of stretching.

Try straight leg then pull your toe up towards your shin

a ‘stretch’ by any other name is still a stretch:

An eccentric ‘exercise’ is one that aims to lengthen the muscle by loading. Semantics again but how else does one ‘lengthen’ the muscle if one does not ‘stretch’ it?

No I’m not talking about stretching before running (see my earlier comment dismissing this) … and I’m not talking about standing around on one leg with the other foot clasped to your buttocks when you’ve just finished a run. I’m talking about a program of ‘exercises’ that compliment running and cycling etc, possibly recommended by a physio etc. Any such program would, to my mind incorporate *stretching* in numerous/various forms.

So no it is not “stretching” in the sense that we are discussing.

But your initial comments dismissed stretching completely as a myth and rubbish. My whole point is that is too sweeping a generalisation.

I’m 48 … and adopt a very similar ‘warm up’ routine to yourself when running etc.
I’ve been fortunate enough to spend a lot of time with people who have climbed, skied, snowboarded & cycled at high levels. Conversation frequently turns to how we try and look after ourselves physically as we get older and cope with niggles & injuries. Without exception everyone of us does some form of Yoga/stretching. To advise the OP to dismiss stretching as “unsubstantiated rubbish” is something of a disservice I feel.

Very simplistic and incorrect.

Ok, I’ll accept that my statement was simplistic in order to highlight a point.

Neither yoga nor recommended physio exercises are limited to stretching – they are much more involved than that, but the point I was trying to make was that both of these can and do involve ‘stretching’ and to dismiss ‘stretching’ as a ‘myth’ is quite a broad and generalising statement, but as I mentioned earlier this is semantics and it is STW after all.

And on a point of pedantry, the heel dips that comprise ‘eccentric’ exercises frequently recommended by physios for Achilles tendonitis are in effect selective, focused stretches – the success of such treatment being well documented even if it is still little understood.

Massage works

Interesting that you think stretching (and by inference yoga etc) are ‘hokum’ but massage ‘works’.

I’ve yet to see any comprehensive and conclusive scientific research that says that massage ‘works’.

Some physio & sports massage material suggests to think of massage as a form of stretching …

Unfortunately there is still little or no conclusive evidence, surrounding the efficacy of stretching, massage, ultrasound, acupuncture etc. And within different divisions of the ‘medical profession’ there is contention and controversy around Physiotherapist, Chiropractors and Osteopaths.

The NHS itself offers mixed advice. Whilst noting that there is limited conclusive scientific evidence for the benefits of many ‘Complimentary and Alternative Medical’ practices it does provide links for them. But then the legacy of the current GP/NHS model is seemingly based more around pain management using prescription and non-prescription drugs.

The health benefits and general feeling of ‘well being’ that are reported from people engaging in yoga, pilates & stretching etc cannot be underestimated, however this is very difficult to measure qualitatively or quantitatively.

OP, if you are in your mid to late 30s onwards; have cycled for years and collected the odd injury along the way, then some remedial action is probably going to be necessary if you want to be able to continue to enjoy your running and cycling. By all means dismiss yoga, stretching and massage etc as rubbish/myth but to answer your original question, I would probably take the advice of qualified health care professional over some pimply faced youth trying to flog you the latest pair of asics …

Many sports physios can offer running gait analysis. This may or may not resolve your knee pain, but pain is the body’s feedback system saying that something isn’t quite right … hope you manage to get it sorted by whatever means.

Ok … I’ll bite.

I’ve done a fair amount of cycling and fell running this year. Fitness level was pretty good and so was the the confidence level … which resulted in a couple of crashes on the bike and a pulled gluteal muscle.

This compounded with existing symptoms of tight ITB and patella tendonitis on the same leg (all probably stemming from a torn knee snowboarding a few years ago) resulted in Hip (Trochanteric) Bursitis – very painful ‘stabbing sensation’ when running.

Recommended physio exercises included foam roller on the ITB and gluteal stretches plus clam & leg raises etc. The 3 gluteal muscle are also stretched when doing yoga ‘pigeon pose’.
Doing these exercises meant the injured right leg range of movement was ‘restored’ to same level as left leg (there was a marked difference when initially doing the pose when comparing one side of the body with the other) and I can now run again without pain.

So I would say that whilst albeit anecdotal evidence, stretching has played a part in my recovery from injury allowing me to run again.

There’s loads of anecdotal evidence that it works

I think part of the problem is we don’t yet fully understand exactly how muscles behave when subjected to load (e.g. weight-lifting) or force (e.g. stretched) and it’s very hard to have a ‘control’ test within any experiment.

For the record I don’t think that ‘stretching’ (or Yoga) for that matter has magical properties. Instead it allows me to have the range of movement that I like to think I would have if I:

a) hadn’t accumulated injuries over the years
b) I didn’t have to spend so much of my life sitting at a desk, in a car, on a settee etc and being more immobile than I would ideally like – especially as I get older …

In other words I think stretching & yoga restore the flexibility I should have (possibly by re-training the CNS over time that it is safe to perform a certain movement and ‘over-riding’ the body’s immediate response – bit like putting contact lenses in your eyes).

Ironically ‘surfer’, it was learning to surf years ago that introduced me to ‘stretching’ and I was also recommended the book ‘Fit to Surf: The Surfer’s Guide to Strength and Conditioning’.

many of the ‘stretches’ included in this book are identical to Yoga positions.

exercises to counteract imbalances

Isn’t this just another way of saying ‘stretch’?

I’ve had Physio treatment for various injuries (running/snowboarding/cycling) both in the UK and in Canada.

Each time I’ve been given a list of exercises to do on a daily basis in order to aid recovery/help avoid repetition .
Invariably these physio exercises are exactly the same (or very similar with the same aim) as yoga positions. The purpose of which is to ‘stretch’ a particular muscle or group of muscles – which is why I included them.
So to my way of thinking to dismiss ‘stretching’ as a myth is by inference to dismiss yoga and some physio therapy as myth.

I’m aware that there is little or no empirical evidence to support stretching before exercise – on the contrary I think the ‘received wisdom’ is to avoid it.

However I can say with confidence that the stretching I have done as part of physio treatment and the regular yoga I do enables me to continue to keep doing the activities I enjoy as I get older when the flexibility of youth can no longer be taken for granted!

I’m probably going to regret arguing semantics … but:

Yoga = stretching
Recommended Physio Exercises = stretching

is a myth. A bit like stretching.

Really? So recommended physio exercises, yoga, stretching / increased flexibility etc are all a myth?

. Would running on pavements be much harsher for your joints than running on gravel tracks?

Personally I find running on pavements & tarmac much harsher, so try and avoid it as much as possible. Also pavements are frequently ‘cambered’ towards the road so you can sometimes end up running a bit ‘lopsided’ for extended periods if you aren’t careful with your route.

Ibuprofen and Ice.

Steady with the NSAIDs … there is *some* evidence to suggest that continued use of NSAIDs can slow healing and also *may* cause kidney damage/dehydration in hill running. Although this has been shown to be in ‘endurance running’ it’s still worth exercising caution.

It’s an ache on my right leg, on the left hand side of my knee, right on the joint

As others have said it’s hard to diagnose/come up with suggestions as your description is a bit vague, however I would definitely suggest seeing a Physio – try ‘The Physios’ next to the Hallamshire Hospital or one of the others suggested above.

Not sure it sounds like ‘Patella Tendonitis’ … this frequently causes pain underneath the knee cap – if you dangle your leg off a chair with your foot off the floor and feel directly underneath your knee-cap – the tendon you can feel is the patella tendon.

It might be a tight ITB – this is very common in cyclist along with tight hip flexors. Tight ITB can cause the patella tendon to be pulled off to one side and stop it ‘tracking’ correctly leading to inflammation/pain.

If the pain is at the actual side of the knee then it could be your Medial collateral ligament (MCL) and/or meniscus :
one legged knee dips and balance/wobble board exercises would help build up strength but I would suggest a visit to a *Sports* Physio in the first instance.

+1 Withnail and I

Similar to nickc’s comments about The Big Lebowski – there is no doubt that this film is not by any definition you care to choose ‘rubbish’

However I can appreciate that not everyone has the same ‘points of reference’ …

I think that similar to TBL it has become one of those films that are frequently quoted which can [understandably] annoy other people – but that in and of itself does not make the film ‘Rubbish’.

I bet some of you even talk in the cinema

That’s right up there with the increasingly modern behaviour of talking at gigs …

I’ve had a recommendation for a company in Morzine

Cold Fusion? I’ve used them for Chamonix a couple of times a few years ago now and been happy

… thanks whatnobeer … I only have to see pictures of snow in BC and it tugs at my heart-strings! :-) looks fabulous!

Very nice HYD1 … going for that Lionel Richtea ‘dancing on the ceiling’ vibe? ;-)

And they also do a variety of saddlebag fixing systems:

http://www.carradice.co.uk/products/saddle-fixing-systems

Not overly fashionable in the ‘Bikepacking world’ but the SQR system from Carradice is pretty stable even with heavy loads:

http://www.carradice.co.uk/bags/saddle-packs-sqr-bags/super-c-sqr-slim

once you’d started the board moving and your weight is on your front foot

Semantics perhaps, but for normal riding/turning/carving, your ‘weight’ should ideally remain neutral & centered over the board. It’s the ‘pressure bias’ between your feet that is modulated rather than your weight.

In my experience shifting weight back and forth leads to moving your upper body towards the outside of your ‘cone of balance’ … but is great for buttering! :lol:

Thanks HYD1 … I enjoyed that! 8)

To be fair Bluebird their shapes are not particularly mainstream. Granted they are still instantly recognisable as a snowboard, but they are clearly trying to create a bit of a niche/quirky design image/brand that’s different to the mainstream market(s). Similar to what Jeremy Jones has done. Just another example of a company trying to adopt a ‘long tail’ economic/business model (with a fish-tail snowboard … see what I did there? ;-) )

Forward stance with the back knee tucked in – the only way to carve

‘One’ of the [numerous] ways to carve I think … i.e. the euro-carve : the positive binding angles just open up your field of view!

To be honest if you look at 1:59 it looks like the rider has got fairly low +tive angles on his rear binding. He’s still riding with a ‘stacked’ & centered stance – just a variation on it as most of the Korua boards in the video look to be directional.

Perfectly possible to carve a ‘pencil line’ in the ‘corduroy’ with a semi-duck stance … as it’s more to do with inclination & angulation I reckon.

Yearning for Turning Vol 4

#GetYourCarveOn ;-)

Global? pfft, if it got so far as Chesterfield there’d be questions to answer

Seen it for sale in a Greek supermarket in Samos a few years ago ..

And seen Simpkins Travel Sweets for sale in Okotoks on the Alberta Prairie …

It’s the start of a Sheffield Globalisation phenomenon … it clearly worked for Greggs and Newcastle! ;-)

Helps explain why both companies have expanded very quickly.

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but it does seem to be part of the modern way of many businesses when there is a desire to raise capital etc to expand, particularly in the Outdoor sector.

Take for instance ‘Amer Sports’ (originally tobacco & shipping etc) whose ‘portfolio’ now includes Salomon, Arc’teryx, Mavic, Suunto, who have all very recently expanded beyond their original core products in order to increase market share etc

Norrona, Sweet Protection & POC all represent [Scandinavian] high quality outdoor gear companies that have branched out into the MTB market.

Norrona also does specialised hunting apparel, but that notwithstanding, I’m not sure any of them can be compared directly with Rapha! ;-)

Norrona & Sweet Protection are more like Arc’Teryx or Patagonia.

Kitsbow looks about like the closest MTB version of Rapha, although I’ve never had the pleasure of wearing any of their gear.

I’m sure I read somewhere that Finisterre (‘A cold water surf company’) are backed by the same private equity company that own Evans and Rapha.

Edit:

Yes I thought so:

http://apeq.co.uk/what-weve-done/%5B/url%5D

I’m 5 foot 6 and not the slimmest build.
What size board should I look for?

Board length is less to do with your height and more to do with your weight, although as a very rough guideline a typical ‘twin-tip’ should come up to in-between your chin and nose when holding it in front of you, however:

longer boards* ‘float’ better in softer conditions as your weight is distributed across a larger surface area especially in powder(not hugely important when starting out though …)

Shorter boards* can make it easier to initiate your turns as the side-cut is shorter

*some modern board designs can mitigate these two generalisations to a certain extent.

As others have said having your own boots is nice – soft->medium flex/neutral for beginners.

And +1 for the McNab ‘Go Snowboard’ book.
And lessons … lots of lessons!

Are all snowboard bindings the same?

No … some fit some snowboard boots better than others – it can be a bit of ‘pot luck’, but finding a pair of boots that fit *your* feet is the most important thing when starting out. Most bindings can be adjusted whereas your feet can’t!

Some bindings are for free-style, some for free-ride. Historically the former were soft/medium flex, whilst the latter were medium/stiff

Great photo Swavis … very moody! :-)

Nice choice howsyourdad1 … clean and simple!

I like a lot Dakine’s gear but I’ve never got on with the ‘ubiquitous’ HeliPro etc … too many straps etc and it’s not stable enough for strapping a long board on your back.

Never quite understood why so many people insist on wearing a chuffin’ great big backpack when they are just cruising ‘inbounds’ … and they can be a royal pain in the butt/downright dangerous when folk insist on wearing them on the chair lifts – especially when they are busy!

Flying into Turin this Jan

Flew into Turin in 2003 to get to valle d’aosta … swore I would rather scoop my eyes out with the back of a soup spoon than go via Turin again … following year went to vallee d’aosta via Geneva/MB Tunnel.

Flew via Turin again earlier this year thinking that things must have improved with the passage of time, and they have … checkin was a breeze but boarding was full of the afore mentioned Brits wailing and nashing their teeth – I thought it was really gonna kick off! :roll: