Blending the ideal wax isn’t easy, when you think you’ve hit the jackpot you find that your new blend has compromised in some other way you didn’t expect. Additives like calcium stearate do add a bit of water resistance to wax but that isn’t really the issue anyway when you delve into it, adding additives like that can cause the wax to resist sticking to a chain surface. It is used to aid mould release and that isn’t a good thing when we are talking wet weather performance on a chain.

With additives like ours, more equals better was my initial thinking, but we found that not to be true. There is a sweet spot and unfortunately that sweet spot changes with each different additive and particle size, it’s a minefield and damn expensive and time consuming to test.

So as I’m not doing a total thread hijack here let me give my thoughts on waxing/coating/ oil for gravel

Waxing fully fills your chain and if not a very soft wax will resist contaminants and work well, some wet weather will make a chain sound dry but a wax with quality additives will last way beyond this point. Chain coatings or drip on wax work ok, but bear in mind that they are most likely 60% solvent so limited in the protection they can provide. Oils will generally stay on the chain longer in wet weather (not always) but they instantly gather contamination and form a grinding paste inside your chain, this actually has quite a good noise damping effect but is wearing your components while doing so.

So back to the wax discussion in wet weather, wax blends can range from very soft, and with a high oil content, to very firm and oil free. A soft wax will squeeze out from your chain rollers under pressure similar to putty between your fingers, a firmer wax will resist this but most likely has a lower oil content and won’t adhere to the areas of the chain where no pressure is applied, it’s all about striking the balance. What I’m hearing is we would be better sacrificing a little performance to give a softer wax in wet and off road use, we could look at an extra ‘chip’ to add to our wax but I think providing a softer version will work out better, might not make me as much money but sure.

The additives are the big thing we don’t talk much about, that’s where we spent all the research time and money, quality additives in the correct quantities make a massive difference to a wax, we worked with professors at Queens University and some specialists in performance coatings to come up with our additives.

I read a lot of these posts with interest, it is intriguing that different opinions arise on different waxes. So let’s explain how our current blend came about. A long way back we had a much softer wax blend, it worked ok but the search for maximum efficiency led us to a much harder blend with a higher melt point, this was predominantly designed for road racing etc but I use it with good results on gravel and mountain bike, I probably tend to wax more often than I need to though because I love the feeling of a freshly waxed chain.

We initially considered two different blends, a softer one for wet/mtb and the stiffer blend for road etc but considered it unnecessary. With hindsight perhaps it was worth sacrificing a little efficiency for wet weather durability, this will mean a slight drop in chain life but perhaps a worthwhile sacrifice.

I have some stock of the previous wax blend, I’d be happy to mix some of our additive into it and let some of you test it. If you have some experience of waxing and would be interested in this, give me a call, I don’t like stealth adds so those that know our product will know where to find my wattsapp and email. Give me a shout and I’ll blend a batch for you to test

Just one useful point, with all waxes, I’d recommend you have your chain submerged for at least 20 mins, with some cooler wax pots this might not even be enough. Your chain will be cold internally and you need to make sure it is fully heated to allow full penetration into the links, and try to leave your chain to fully cool before fitting. When we are prepping chains we pre heat them prior to waxing (drys the alcohol off them and speeds up our process)

oh we are also working on a drip on wax, but it’s challenging. Previous version worked well but I think we made napalm!!!!

Thanks for all the wax chat folks, never stop learning

For putoline I’d probably just use an old saucepan and set the tin in it, maybe put some water in the base of the saucepan to spread the heat, a slow cooker may not get it hot enough and they also live up to their name.

Just on some previous points in this thread on the different types of waxes, putoline is a softer wax/grease, that means it will provide longer lasting corrosion protection, that’s what a lot of riders mean when they say it lasts longer, the downside of this being that it attracts contamination which looks dirty but also works its way into the chain and causes it to wear faster.

Products like GLF (others are available) are designed to be dry on your chain and a hard paraffin that resists contamination, it also contains an additive that burnishes onto the inner surfaces of your chain, improving the chain surface and preventing metal on metal contact. It continues to lubricate way beyond what we think of as dry and needing relube. Unfortunately the only downside to this is that you need to rewax if your chain is wet after a ride but you can do this with no degreasing, maybe rinse with boiling water if it’s really dirty but I rarely do.

Its a much better experience with a small multi cooker on slow cooker setting, takes 30 mins total and you don’t need to do anything other than place the chain on your wax while it melts, give it a swish under the wax after 30 mins and leave it to dry, job done and your chain is perfect again

Galibier stuff is definitely good quality and at a decent price, on top of that it’s a family owned business and has the whole family involved in it, including the kids. They set out to create good kit at a fair price and as far as I can see it’s as good as the premium brands.

I did a cycle show last year and had the stand beside Myles, got to learn a lot about his business and outlook on things. They are my go to now as I like to support the small guys who are passionate about their products.

To answer a couple of questions above, hot water rinse is really only needed if your chain is very dirty, I don’t recommend it as normal practice, especially if you live in a hard water area as limescale can form on the chain surface.

Rinse with hot water won’t have any impact on how the surface improvements of your chain using my stuff and some other waxes who use a similar additives.

We worked with Queens university Belfast on the additives to our wax, working on the quantity, quality, size etc. I have some really interesting images under high power microscope showing the improvement in chain surface over time.

Finally getting to see what’s happening on here, I lurk and don’t log in. GLF and putoline aren’t compatible in a regular basis for a two pot system, waxing a previously putoline chain once won’t really harm your wax and the old putoline will be melted off in your wax pot. Putoline is a softer wax with a higher oil content, it doesn’t have the friction modifiers we add either so misses out on improving the surface of the chain.

drip on lube is one we are still working on, we have an excellent version that works well in UK conditions however it is too flammable to post. We are working on a new version at the minute along with a couple of different hot melt waxes.  Best way to get us is through wattsapp and the details are on our website

Cheers for the support so far folks, it is great to listen to your feedback

I haven’t tested the rack idea but it’s definitely sound principles, I haven’t really found contamination to have a huge negative effect in truth though, yeah your wax starts to last a shorter time after 30-40 waxes but it’s worth having to change to fresh wax more often to save any drivetrain cleaning in my opinion (I’m selling it so would say that 😉)

If your chain is very dirty, a good rinse under boiling water cleans most of it off, I have an old kettle I whack it in and boil it for that purpose. I’d only do that in really stinking days and never on my road bike.

The additives in GLF do separate or sink slightly, when we were working on the ideal mix we tried adding all kinds of surfactants etc to avoid this but they all had an effect on the performance of the wax in use. We also looked at the penetration of the additives into the chain under electron microscope and arrived at the concentration, particle size and process we use now. The agitation of the chain in the molten wax is sufficient to stir the mix and ensure sufficient penetration. Remember your chain sinks down to where the greatest concentration of additives sit when melting and then shaking the chain submerged allows this to flow into the links.

Just one point to remember, leave your chain submerged for 15 mins at least, preferably more, this allows the inner surfaces of the chain to heat up and stops wax solidifying internally in your chain, this is needed to make sure your wax is filling every small gap. If you want to go into it very deep, a heated ultrasonic cleaner does this even better, but that’s being very OCD.

What’s the difference between MSW and GLF? Well I can’t give too much away but our wax has different properties which means it avoids abrasion better, and our additive while apparently the same material, has a different appearance. One of our initial batches had the same appearance however we stopped using that additive.

We also have a much more premium product in development, the performance of this one is much better, but it is much more expensive and probably only for race chain use.

Both products will be going for testing at a popular test facility when finances allow.

If you want a much quicker, more temp controlled wax melter, I’m using a Lakeland multi cooker on slow cooker setting, it melts wax a lot quicker but so far I’m not finding any degradation in the quality of the wax. Recommend them!

Like beetlejuice I’m here, except only need to say my name once!

Ok so temperate and damage to wax, it’s quite a complex thing and has been explained to me by my tamed professor but with regard to all the in depth details, my head exploded. Basically overheating the wax won’t ruin it totally but will change its features. It shortens the long chain hydrocarbons and weakens the bonds in the material, grades of paraffin all have different melting points and temperatures they can tolerate, that’s why I recommend a slow cooker on low/medium with the lid off. It beats the wax slowly and won’t exceed 100 degrees usually.

Heating on a hob or rice cooker will definitely exceed this temperature and that does harm the base wax I use. The effect is that the wax feels easier to break, hard to describe but probably more chalky and won’t adhere to your chain as well. It will still work, but just won’t last as long.

The additives are really what it’s about anyway, at least in the case of our wax, the wax is a carrier and also a great barrier for contamination, the main lubricant and wear protection comes from the additives and that’s where we’ve spent most of the time and money researching.

Thanks everyone for every word, have to admit reading this all has brought many tears. I stood strong all my daughters life and never let her see fights or weakness, I know it was less than ideal but I hope I’ve given her some kind of start in life, even though it wasn’t the upbringing I wanted for her.

I guess it’s only now that I realise I was giving all my strength just to stand still, now that she isn’t there with me I know that her little light was carrying me as much as I was caring for her

Thank you all for your replies, I really do appreciate it. It’s really difficult I must admit, I had a little contact with my daughter today but it really hurt. She would spend all day on her phone apps if I let her so she has to request more time, she wanted time on Amazon to buy nice things for her new room as she put it. It was really difficult to try to be strong and graceful about that and just left me a mess again afterwards.

I guess things will get better but it’s hard to see how, I suppose I have to be thankful that I had those 12 years, if I handnt turned a blind eye I wouldn’t have had that.

Thank you everyone

Neither my daughter nor I knew she wouldn’t be coming home that evening. If I’d known that was the case I wouldn’t have agreed to meet there. I can think of no more awful way to say goodbye, for my daughters sake I acted normal and said see you later. Then walked off not knowing where she was going and when I’d see her again.

I couldn’t start a fuss there for her sake so I walked off and fell to pieces where she couldn’t see

Thanks folks, I’m in N Ireland, bikes are a huge part of my life as I have two side businesses in them and people calling fairly regularly. I’ll get out on my bike a ride soon, just too raw now. Unfortunately my daughter now lives half an hours drive away and I’m not sure where the house is

She is 12 and while I’ve no reason to believe I won’t get to see her, it’s still shit. I don’t know how my daughter is feeling right now, like me she didn’t like change, but they have the money to provide endless distractions

The cruelty of all this, one thing that hurts, the other man was a friend of mine, back 13 years ago when he was caught he pleaded with me not to say anything because he would lose his kids. He had all that time with them and then at the first opportunity they take my daughter too.

It will be incredibly difficult to do what’s right for my daughter and make sure her new home is somewhere she is happy

The biggest problem with rights is the huge bill attached to enforcing them, I inherited my land and built on it myself, unfortunately I’m a long long way short of being able to pay for a chunk more. To be honest that doesn’t even worry me. The worst thought ever was seeing my girl drive off totally unaware that she wasn’t coming home that night.

There is a lot to sort out, keeping a roof over my head plus having some sort of dad left for my girl.

It’s hard to cope with the contrast of the excitement of a new home, new partner, new father figure and massively better resourced than I will ever be. While this house might have been my daughters home, it’s hard for it not to be an empty and a bit sad a house rather than a home.

Certainly is in the urban dictionary, personally I think it’s just floccinaucinihilipilification though!!

I came up with it, and can’t decide if it’s a marketing fail or a win 😂 but you’ll remember it

Full name story, I worked with an older man who was keen on rallying. He had a couple of lovely mk2 escorts on the road. He was always very polite and strait laced, never heard him swear or anything. The sunstrip sticker on his cars always said GLF motorsport and he would never say what it stood for. Unfortunately early in the Covid thing he caught it and died of complications. I named it in his memory, it always stuck in my head so I thought why not go with it.

That’s a whole other lubrication challenge onzadog!!!

There are loads of fake chains doing the rounds I’m afraid, Amazon and eBay are full of them, particularly shimano ones and I’m sure Sram are no different, I’m just not as familiar with them as they aren’t as big a seller for me.

I have seen chains on eBay for a significant amount less than I can buy them through a distributor, and given the eBay fees are about 15% there is no way these are genuine.

Unfortunately it hurts those of us who are trying to do things right and honest. Why buy a chain off me when you can get the ‘same’ on eBay for £25 less?

Sram chains from new normally measure less than 0.05 on the digital scale after a full degrease, with factory grease it’s not worth measuring as I’d need to force the vernier into place.

I think Adam at zero friction cycling has test data on XX1 and X1 on his website, that will show his initial wear measurements, he uses the same digital verniers I use.

Chains measuring 0.5 out of the pack just isn’t right, I’ve never seen this and I’ve measured so many chains. Either the chains are fake or your chain tool isn’t accurate

To be sure, without the digital chain tool, just measure them with a 12’ steel ruler. Not sure how to post links so here goes

Chain wear when new varies greatly between brands and even models. The only chains that consistently measured as zero wear are YBN SLA chains. The ones I find showing the most initial wear are actually dura-ace/xtr however that ties in with increased efficiency.

The wear rates are very small when new and not really worth considering. If you are consistently measuring 0.5 wear on new chains it’s time for a new tool, the park CC2 is the least accurate I have and is always indicating much more wear than reality. I use a KMC digital chain checker. For normal checking I recommend the park CC4.

Change your chains at 0.5 wear, you are accelerating wear in your chainrings and cassette otherwise. I have 3 chains I use in rotation and I’ll be bored of the bike before anything needs changed

TJ, hub gear does make a difference, it would favour an oil or an oily wax like putoline. Harder waxes work better with the slack portion of the chain at the bottom and the actuation through the mech. It’s not well understood as to why, I’m hoping I can find out because I’ve been given time with a mad professor and an electron microscope, it’s interesting seeing what’s going on inside a chain in that detail.

Trail rat I do think it’s more the brand of wax you are using, your experience echos the detailed review Zero Friction Cycling published

I originally thought I’d develop an off-road/wet weather wax with a softer base wax, much like AB, it just didn’t work well at all. Wax just squeezed out too easily. I likened it to squeezing blutack between my fingers as opposed to a strip of nylon.

TJ there is a lot of variables, chain prep, chains not left in wax long enough to get hot, poor performing waxes.

I’ve had some customers, quite a few actually, go way beyond the 250-300 miles on the road I recommend. I had one customer say his only lasted 30 miles, both can’t be true but I sent the latter a prepped chain and new wax, it seems to be a lot better for him now. Either his chain wasn’t fully stripped or his wax had been overheated/contaminated.

On a mountain bike it does need applied more often but it’s so easy to do and the chain, cassette etc stays spotless with minimal effort.

I won’t disagree with you, the test on ZFC found the same issue with the AB wax, it is too soft and doesn’t remain in place. It also has a lower melting point so I’d imagine it would be easy to overheat in a slow cooker. That’s why I advise to leave your cooker on low with the lid off, you won’t overheat your wax that way. Overheating causes it to be less effective, it looses adhesion.

A harder wax lasts much longer on your chain or rather in your chain, you’ll still get a bit of surface rust if it’s left away wet. If I can get my drip on wax sorted, simply drip a small amount on and rub it over the surface of the chain or just remove your chain and give it a wax bath while you wash your bike and yourself.

Making sure your chain is totally clear of any factory grease and oil is essential to good wax performance. I discussed this at length with a professor that I’m working with, he gave me a big explanation but basically any oily residue breaks surface tension and the wax won’t adhere properly to the chain. You only need to do this if your chain is new, or you use a drip on top up. I’m working on a wax compatible drip on but it’s a challenge

The trap depth you mention isn’t a building regulation but is in guidance. If the shallower trap performs the same function then it will meet the regulation behind this guidance.

I don’t recall the wording of that particular regulation but it will be something like ‘foul drainage system must safely carry all foul waste to x without causing damage to the building or health of its occupants’

Id highly doubt any building control surveyor will look at the depth of seal traps

They used to have a shop local to me, close to Davagh trail centre in N Ireland, the clothes are really good quality kit, can’t fault it.

The padded gilets are class, I just can’t justify another clothing spend right now.

Your foundation depth really has little to do with the weight of bearing, for housing anyway. The pressure on founds from a single storey and two storey really isn’t massively different. Depth is more about going down to undisturbed clay that’s firm enough to support and also not water bearing. If you have disturbed clay, or water in it, it can heave and shrink with seasonal conditions. Any movement like that can cause cracks or if it’s compressible cause structural failure.

You could use a raft foundation as an alternative but you’ll need an engineer to design and certify it.

It’s frustrating that I don’t have the drip on top up. The race riders I have testing it rave about it for stage races. Works ok as a stand alone but no drip on can ever penetrate and clean a chain like a hot melt immersion so it’s definitely more effective as a top up.

As for cleaning down the chains between waxes to remove dust, alcohol wipes are ideal. If I can find time to get some at reasonable money I’ll add them to my website too. With Covid surplus they aren’t too difficult to find though.

Quick tip for after a wet ride, personally I just throw it back in the wax as it’s easy to do but if you don’t have time, take your chain off and wrap it in a microfibre cloth until you can wax it again, no idea why that stops corrosion but it does. A drip on application as soon as you come off the bike will also do the job. Remember if you use oil or anything with an oil content, you’ll need to solvent clean before putting your chain back in wax.

I’m not a fan of the softer waxes for the same reason, they create a mess and attract dirt. I set out to develop a wax that is as hard as possible on the chain, for durability and cleanliness, i never need to clean a chain unless it’s a really wet muddy day. If that’s the case I just rinse it with hot water and rewax, no other cleaning needed. Temperature isn’t a problem, I had riders using it at Volta a Portugal in a heatwave with no problems.

It’s been a very dry spell here and I’ve been trying out extended durability in dust, so far with 5 outings on our local Cavehill trails and no need to even think of a rewax, chain is squeak free and spotless. Cavehill is mostly a downhill kind of spot so limited mileage but still, it’s great having no dirt and black oily mess to deal with.

I am aware that self praise is no recommendation, I’m honestly glad of any feedback anyone on here gives.

Any wax questions please feel free to use the contact me thing on my website or instagram, that comes straight to my WhatsApp, I’m prone to missing posts on here.

The drip on will be wax compatible when it’s available, having a few challenges on that front as the raw material for my previous drip on came from Russia or Ukraine, I’m trying to find an alternative, getting a fully wax compatible one is difficult but we will get there.

As for cleaning the residual dirt from wax, it’s not really a massive issue as it takes a long time before any significant build up occurs. You can remove it by turning on your slow cooker long enough for the block to free up, turn it over to release the puck and trim a bit off the bottom, the only issue with that is the fact you’ll also remove a lot of the additive as it tends to settle too. I wouldn’t add water to it personally but no real reason why that wouldn’t work. Water does sink to the base of the wax.

I had considered a cheaper base wax for off-road without the additive for this reason, but it’s not that much cheaper when I do the maths and the ws2 additive is even more effective in harsh conditions, it just isn’t worth the small saving.

Yeah it’s normal for a chain to be a little stiff when it’s freshly waxed as the wax has worked it’s way into all the links of the chain. It is normally back to smooth running and shifting in about 5 mins, I’ve had a couple of chains take a bit longer and can’t really say why, after about 20 mins or so they are fine, I’d break them in cross chained slightly just to free them up a bit quicker.

Definitely think you’ll see good progress using TR with Zwift for motivation. Consistent balanced training definitely works and becomes an enjoyable habit. It was my intention to use the same approach over winter for this race season, unfortunately Covid put paid to that. A business sideline I’d been playing about with kinda got more serious so I just let this years racing go. I hope to do exactly what you are doing from October on and see how I go.

We must jump into some races as a singletrack team on Zwift for the laugh and show the roadies how it’s done 😉

Continual gains up to 4.5wkg might get difficult OP, that’s a very high bar and would have you competitive up to A2 level and above. You will hit a plateau at some stage and need really specific training to push on through that. It sounds like you prefer programs and riding to graphs so maybe trainer road would suit you better? It’s a bit more scientific than the Zwift programs