Thanks for all the replies. Really interesting to see such variation out there. Lots of comments on different fitness, cadence, rider type, support levels etc. What I was trying to convey at the start, was the standardisation of those factors. Same rider, same elevation, in the same conditions, with the same support level, with the same tyres, same ground conditions. Standardising as much as possible

I know from rides with friends that range differs wildly. However, removing variables as much as possible, what is the most efficient battery/motor combo. Results will vary of course, but with enough info you can spot trends etc.

For me, somebody that has ridden a number of ebike motor/battery combos on a loop that is as free of variables as possible, would be well placed to comment on the differences.

For instance, I want to try an EP8 and the 630wh against my E8000 / 504wh. My intention is to set the torque level and the support level the same. Then ride a loop with the lowest number of variables as possible and make some comparisons.

Its not feasible for me to try every combo, so its great there is such an informed community here on STW.

In the hope I can help with range questions, here is what I have found in 4500 miles on my current bike:

I am 102kg / average fitness.
Tyres, Michelin Wild X Enduro 2.6

E8000 in factory eco high (30nm / 60% support) with 504wh on an off road loop in the north of Scotland is typically 45km / 1000m elevation.

Thereafter, the trade off of more elevation, shorter range, or less elevation more range.

Typical range in factory trail, which I think is 70nm / 110% support is typically 30km / 750m on good surfaces.

This can drop to 20k / 650m on boggy, wet heather etc.

D3fc – are the bikes well spaced apart – no chance of pedals touching etc?

Thanks D3fc. What bikes do you put on it? Just need to make sure something like an XL Enduro 29er Ebike can fit

Thanks 5lab – I hadn’t considered them. I worry that they are not the best for spirited driving. The wheel would be in the slipstream above the roof line. Also, wonder if the bike could jump out of the hook on big compressions in the road..

matt_outandabout – You are right of course but its not a concern for me.

@Whydot thanks for taking the time to respond.

That’s really interesting. I guess my Smuggler is on the upper limit of the bike. Its running Xt 4 pots, EX511 wheels with rimpact inserts, 150mm Lyrik ultimate up front etc…

Wonder how much more capable the 2deg head angle and travel change make the Sentinel..

Interesting you find the Smuggler more suited to longer days in the saddle – what is it about it that makes it more suited?

In the summer I am regularly doing big mountain loops in the Caringorms. Say 70km and 1500-1800m of ascent and descent. I agree the Smuggler is good on those days but I actually assumed the Sentinel would be better.

@benp1 – the Spur especially. Like when Porsche charge more for the light, stripped out model :-)

Hi @campfreddie – I remember we spoke when I was building my Smuggler. I started with 140mm Pikes and its properly good with the 150mm Lyriks. I spoke to TR head office and they didn’t recommend going up to 160. Mainly – the official line was it wouldn’t handle like they intended.

If I am honest – its not more at the front end I would like – the rear can blow through travel and loose composure on chunkier stuff. My buddy has a Kona Process 153 29er and it felt bottomless by comparison.

@poah – Yes, big respect for them, great bikes. But not my thang.

@ehrob – Carbon Smugglers, aesthetically I don’t like them. Overly swoopy. The previous generation Sentinel was the same. Just a very personal and subjective thing!

The new stuff from TR just look superb. Its not just the riding for me. Its the whole ownership appeal. Opening the garage door to see a fleet of bikes you really love.

@lawman91 – I like the idea of the Spur, a really useful bike most of the time, I like the whole underdog thing that the Spur and the Smuggler possess, that ability to feel like they are slacker and have more travel than they actually have.

We were over in Torridon a couple of months back and even a lad I ride with regularly didn’t realise my Smuggler was the only one in our group with less than 150mm at the rear. Although, to be fair, I could have done with something more capable that weekend. Or rather something to flatter my lack of skill….

@ehrob – you are right. My Smuggler is sitting at the enduro end of the trail spectrum but its still a short travel 29er and although mine is the last off the line – its still an older bike with correspondingly older angles etc.

Might try and find some way of riding a Sentinel first.

My LBS actually has a Large XT build coming in this month.

Just wonder how much more capable it will be than the Smuggler.

Methinks another post on STW is coming up….

I think my heart is still in a grey Sentinel with lots of Burgtec or Hope shinys to add some magic…

Thanks Onza – an issue I am well versed with. 2.3 non WT DHR2 is very tight on the Smuggler.

As a footnote – I will have a local uplift once Glenshee is finished this year….

Hmm, this is all really interesting.

lawman91 – that’s kinda what I was thinking. I don’t typically ride FT Bill, although I have done it on my Smuggler but was more an exercise in cheating death rather than mountain biking……

The Sentinel would excel there, comparted to the Smuggler (with the 150mm Lyric Ultimates)and even more so compared to the Spur. But, its not what I usually ride. My concern is the climbing and carrying advantage of low weight, could mean its just not burly enough for the big mountain descents. As fitnessischeating says – lots eating through shock bushings. I am on the heavier side too – 105kg ish.

ehrob – Really good observation on the fork and shock too – light weight but not designed for the big hits. As you say, you could fit Pikes but that then you run into other weak areas I would guess.

My Smuggler is an alloy one – so it’s on the weighty side.

I guess this opens up another discussion then – is a carbon Sentinel significantly better than the alloy Smuggler as an all rounder? More capable for the same weight? Just as efficient uphill, despite the additional travel and slacker angles?

Dave

Ah – thanks for the clarification. I didnt know that.

Horst link included to try and get an idea of how others with the same FS frame design and shape carry kit

@5lab – I might do. But not really giving it much consideration as I want to get better weight distribution for climbing and descending

Hmm – the 1.5L restrap canister bag looks good

Thank you!

Nice one Scotroutes. I can PM you the gpx route if its of interest

@scotroutes – the track between Ockle and Kentra on Ardnamurchan has some really big sharp stones.

Possibly Corrieyairack Pass but its been years since I have been over it, I hear its had some work done so might not be too bad

Actually have an SS already but found the 2.3 on the 29mm internal a bit draggier than expected. Wonder if I am running on the side lugs a bit.

tomtom – thats how I feel about the Minions. Fine in big mountain days where they are needed. I am just thinking 430km, over 5 days with 9000m elevation. I really want something higher rolling. I think it could be the difference between a broken man at the end of each day and one who can ride the next!

Thanks Yak – time for a spreadsheet to make a comparison table. #nerd

thisisnotaspoon – I just think the draggy DHR/DHF combo is way too sticky and too knobbly for the long days on much more mellow terrain. I am looking to get any advantage I can to redress my appalling fitness…

Thanks martinhutch – I think that would be good on the back. Its hard to tell but it looks like it would roll well. As you say, great price too

Again, its the trade off. I think 90% of the time the risk of a slashed sidewall is low – however there are places that will have very sharp rocks. Plus the increase in pressure makes them less likely to deform around a rock and much more likely to be gashed open.

Something high rolling with good volume for comfort but with good puncture protection. I am not bothered about the weight. If I was – I should diet before the bike!

I didnt consider the Bontrager tyres, or the specialised come to that….

Will have a look. Would the XR1 at 2.2in sit ok on a 29mmm internal rim?

Thanks ta11pau1 – do you think the Mezcal/Barzo are a bit too dainty for the task?

I know everything will be a trade off – weight vs puncture resistance – traction and braking performance vs rolling resistance

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Hairy – cheers for the Strava link.

We are now thinking of riding from Ballater up the Glen, then do the 5 anticlockwise then head off road back to Ballater. Should be a big day!

I like the idea of the ascent from Braemar, bagging the 3 then down jocks road.

Decisions decisions…

Try Mike or Lewis at Twenty 20 in Aberdeenshire

I run a 2.6 Mich Wild X Enduro on a Hope Fortus 35 – no issues. Its got the right shape profile etc. Works well. Same for the DHR2 WT

Petite Paris on the Grassmarket is a lovely French Bistro

oocha. I was in agony. Couldnt even put on a camelback for a year. Was off the bike 2 years.

Physio Physio Physio. Do everything you can!

Good luck

Thanks for all the replies.

I have a 2020 Merida E-160. A 2019 Transition Smuggler with 150mm Lyrics. And will soon have a 2021 Transitional Sentinel.

Also have my 1993 Kona Lava Done (garage queen) and my old 853 PA. I am never going to ride it for more than an hours nostalgic blast locally! Got an external dropper for it and certainly makes it a lot less sketchy downhill.

Interestingly BITD, I had a Soul and a 725 and an 853 PA and like the PA’s much better.

I took the PA to the Alps and the Pyrenes. Crazy to think that now. Its so steep and short compared to modern LLS 29ers!

So, I think the outcome of this – I am going to keep it as it was in 2013 and just enjoy stepping back in time to when bikes where twitchy and scary!!!

I think bike are as good as they have ever been, but I have great memories with the Kona and the PA and like to have them in the garage as part of the “fleet”

Dave

@tenatious_doug – same here. I read the format and the rules and immediately thought “poke it”.

I have since decided I am grumpy and just need to live with the changes out there to be Covid compliant. Or live in a miserable wee solo bubble in the hills around Aberdeenshire…

I am heading there – I think I did it in 2011 & 2012 the last time. Remember the course was very XC but good fun if you can get a clear descent without some dainty XC racer without a dropper slowing you down!

Going to be a bit of a faf not being able to register on the Friday evening. Hope the hotel can do me a full Scottish breakfast early. Food of fat athletes.

@swavis thanks for that. I was under the impression at the time that the office in Huntly was pretty pro access and particularly pro mountain biking.

That’s a point, Baxters had a hand in it at the start didnt they? Got some of the trails named after their soups!

I know all the DMBIMS and ATA work is amazing and they have great relationships with landowners and FLS. Wonder if there is a case for reinstating? If the trail surface is still there for the most part then some bridges and a good cut back of the vegetation might be what’s needed?

@DickBarton, yes, those are all plausible explanations, given what we know of FC / FLS at times. I was just wondering what caused them to act, taking a big step back by destroying and removing trails. Seems odd. I dont know how long they were in existence for before the decision was taken to close. There must have been consultation at the concept/design/construction stage, wonder if there was any consultation at the time they were canned.

Furthermore, wonder if there has been any attempt to reinstate.

@roverpig, That’s a real shame. Sounds like it wouldn’t be worth it. I used to ride it a lot when all the other trails locally where either snowbound or just too claggy to be fun. The surface was generally really good for year round riding. Great for newcomers to the sport too.

I’m just curious as to why they were removed and the trails closed. To my knowledge (and as you says its XC!) they are not dangerous or causing folks to send massive drops and hurt themselves.

The cost of putting the trails in properly in the first place must have been really high, even if there was an ongoing maintenance cost, it must only have been very modest!