Reasonably long travel full sus vs hardtail may be a small factor along with pretty different geometry and ride position too… :D

They are not 100% waterproof alone but when worn over some normal 3/4 bib tights I am more than happy to ride 3-4 hours in the pouring rain without feeling wet or cold. I often feel staying warm in the wet weather is almost more important in some ways- there’s no point in something waterproof that transfers all of the cold form outside in to you (a bit like some of Castellis waterproof materials). Either way the Lusso Max Repels let you just get on with the ride for not many pennies :D

Racing Ralph front and rear is looking unlikely if the Plain has seen the same rain we have had today :?

I would be very surprised if it was really 100g based on the low price and comparative weight of other more exotic competitors… but if it is- bargain :D

As well as the Mack Superlight you are looking at:
Extralite (2 versions) 76g and 85g
Tune 92g
Syntace HiTorque MX 99g
Carbon-Ti 110g
DT Swiss 180 Ceramic (centrelock) 123g
DT Swiss 240 130g
American Classic 130g

There isn’t too much weight to be saved in a front hub between the lightest options but a Hope Pro II is roughly 190g so some decent weight to be saved. When you come to need a new front wheel it is hard to beat an A2Z or American Classic hub on the Stans rim of your choice for value and lightness :D

I wouldn’t get a bike fit unless you’re a ‘dirt roadie’ gnarly dude who just pedals up and down fireroads all the time never needs to pedal and prefers an uplift to a challenging technical climb.

Ok, so the changes to the original comment are an equal load of BS to the original comment itself but you get the point. You can’t write off getting a bike that fits you properly as something just for “dirt roadies,” whoever they are :D

There are also a lot of MTB cliches about bike fits having no application to MTB :wink: But that has been done to death on other threads…

Position and sitting upright or stretched out does not just relate to aerodynamics but also affects variations in muscle recruitment used during pedaling which may or may not influence pain/ soft tissue damage in an individual depending on the specifics of the individual and the bike. I would agree though, see the physio first to sort the knee then think about where to go from there. Based on the photos alone I think a bike fit would help get a bit of proper advice one way or another as to the numerous possible changes which may help the OP ride more comfortably. There certainly looks to be a lot of room for improved comfort.

Some links for the OP for reference:

Bike Dynamics have some pretty good short explanations of some rough principles of fit.

Also, if you come across articles by Steve Hogg[/url] then these are the better ones to take on board rather than the rules of thumb you might often see printed.

The practical difference will be small. If the axle to crown (AC) height is 10mm different when static then the AC height considering sag of 25% is 7.5mm different between the two forks or 7mm different with 30% sag on both.

Will you still be using the BB mounted chain guide? This influences the answer.

There is no need to vary from the Shimano Instructions when going 1×10 (follow the M760 diagram not the lower diagrams)

Spacers as per Shimano’s instructions. 2 on DS, 1 NDS assuming a 68mm shell and no BB mounted chain guide. Single ring in the middle ring position should be absolutely fine.

sounds like a plan to me

Done. Go forth and spread the word :D

wrap your forks in pants

A very dangerous joke (hope it was a joke!) to make. I hadn’t given it a thought but now you mention it, it sounds like a good idea :D Maybe it could be the way STWers could identify themselves in all future fork servicing? :D

Yeah, ask them. I wouldn’t want to receive dirty shorts but then you probably wouldn’t be over the moon if more stitching comes apart in the wash and they deny your warranty because the shorts look like them have suffered some massive abuse :D Could always just give them a quick hand wash to get the worst off as a compromise, it would almost be lazy not too :D

a layback seatpost would help.

A vertical line from the pedal axle when the crank is horizontal should be just on the front of the kneecap

These two terms are at odds. Set the saddle in the correct position according to the knee, Then determine the reach to the bars. Do NOT move the saddle back to accomodate poor fit, that will exacerbate the knee pain. A layback saddle will just require that the saddle be placed further forward on the rails.

This is correct besides the first sentence. The OP is quite far forwards over the pedals so needs point one (the layback post) to satisfy point 2 (the horrible rule of thumb :D )

I definitely agree with setting the saddle to pedal relationship first then getting the reach correct. I would say the saddle to pedal relationship isn’t really right for the OP which is why this might need some adjustment first. As before though, it is hard to tell from static photos and a fitter/ physio will be able to help more.

Just fit a longer stem. You won’t die, and it’s a little bit retro :D

A longer stem might help but given how upright the OP is sat it might have to be one of those custom 15cm jobbies one if the Astana riders was using 8O :D (this is a joke, just in case it is not clear)

Serious question: Why is sitting almost upright an inefficient riding

Afaik it isn’t.

Different muscles become more or less active through different ranges of motion. If you are asking smaller weaker muscles to do a lot of the work they will fatigue quickly and the soft tissues in the area may get damaged with overuse. Likewise neighboring joints may have to do more/ less work to compensate for a joint doing its less than optimal proportion of work. Think about the difference in sitting bolt upright (pelvis tilted pretty much the same as standing) and pedaling and then tilting the pelvis forwards perhaps 30 degrees with the upper body around 40-45 degrees to the horizontal and pedaling. The range of motion at the hip (femur relative to pelvis) is very different in each case and will recruit different muscles and likely have knock on effect down to the knee and ankle and up to the back.

Peddling from the glutes, i.e. engaging bum muscles when peddling

I am less sure on the specifics for cycling but would imagine that you will struggle to engage the glutes for example with such an upright position. Maybe a physio can add some information here.

Keeping heel down when at the bottom of the pedal stroke

I think this is the opposite of what a physio/ bike fitter would suggest. You are kind of saying you don’t want the gatrocs (calves) to do too much work keeping the heel down. While it might reduced knee pain (gastocs attach behind the knee and are passive flexors of the knee if you like) taking them out of the equation means the knee and hip have to do a bit more work. There are mixed view on this (see mid foot cleat positions). Again maybe a physio can give their thoughts.

As suggested above, moving the saddle back on the rails would be a good move for general bike fit. But I don’t think you need a new bike.

I would agree that the saddle is quite far forwards. Whether or not a layback post (the Thomson suggested by the OP is only around 15-16mm by the way)can compensate for the too small frame is the question. It might be good to try it initially.

I would be very wary of following the “rules” CaptainMainwaring suggests as they are only a rough guide to give a starting point on fit as I have already said.

I don’t think the way forwards is to “spend” your way out, with new frame etc, you would be better spending the money on a good physio that understands cyclists and who can cure the actual physical injury, not buy a new bike and hope your knee gets better.

You kind of need both. No point having a bike fit with a dodgy knee but equally no point fixing the knee and aggravating it again with a poor fit on the bike. I would be looking to see a decent physio ASAP to take care of the knee side of things and let them help you with any imbalances you might have and check there might not be some underlying pathology. After that focus on the bike and the fit. It needn’t cost a lot of money to try a larger frame. A second hand hardtail frame might not be the glamorous option but for £100 or so it would give you and the bike fitter a better platform to work with in trying to get comfortable on the bike.

Email a few bike fitters the pictures you have posted here. My bet is that they will say they can do as much for you as possible but to not expect too many drastic changes in comfort and that most likely a bigger frame (longer top tube) would give them a better chance of getting you as comfortable as possible. I would also imagine that they wouldn’t be super keen on fitting with flat pedals as they tend to put the feet in positions too far away from where they would like to fit and people tend to rotate their feet in ways they wouldn’t on clipless pedals. It is hard to explain but see what they say. It could be worth a few emails just to know where you stand and what you might need to invest in (physio/ fit/ frame) in the near future.

You will not solve this problem online. Sancho is right unfortunately. Too many variables, too many likely causes and too many possible solutions. A few static photos gives some rough data but is nothing compared to how your joints behave dynamically for a start.

See someone who can spend time with you getting this right. I hasten to use the term bike fit as it seems to be a bit of a dirty word around here. But a bike fit is your best bet as already mentioned.

That said, there are some obvious things that look off in the photos. Biggest problem is the top tube length on your current frame looks way too short= far too small frame. You are pretty much sat upright which is never going to be an efficient riding position. That doesn’t necessarily directly relate to the knee pain but without changing the frame all seatpost faffing will most likely be in vein. A compromised saddle to crank/ pedal relationship just to balance out other factors is not a substitute for a correctly fitting frame.

My only other advice besides don’t put your faith in an internet solution and most likely get a bigger frame, would be to pretty much disregard all “rules of thumb” you might have read about getting correct saddle height/ fore and aft/ using plumb lines/ etc. These are rough guidelines based upon what is statistically most likely to fit an “average” rider. If you ever see the data that goes in to creating such things you will see very few (if any) people actually fit this “average” profile. Ride magazine in Oz did an interesting feature too which took detailed measurements of various roadie Pros and their bikes and the variation in bike fits against these so called “rules” of fitting was staggering. That isn’t to say all have optimised positions but they certainly aren’t struggling either. As I said, they are guidelines to give a starting point from where more detailed and meaningful adjustments can be made.

Long and short of it- get a bike fit from someone with a good reputation who can take the proper time to explore the bike/ knee issues you have. Knee pain is never fun but it will get sorted and it will feel like a revelation when it is sorted :D Stick at it! :D

Thanks for all the info Chris. Anything that helps me know a little more of what to expect on Sunday is always welcome :D

I think there were only around 50 people in all categories (or at least that is what it felt like!) in the SPAM blast I did ages ago. It was quite fun in a way being crammed in a small side road at the start rather than a big open field like some events and having a good ride with a small group of like minded people :D

I will have a front wheel with a grippier tyre on in the car with me in case I have a last minute lack of confidence in the Ralphs :D

Is it a reasonably low-key event as there don’t seem to be many people signed up over on the XCracer entry list? Maybe lots of entries on the day?

How bizarre wrt the Dirty Dans :?

How can a tyre descend well through mud but not grip well during pedalling through mud? If anything I would expect a tyre to be pretty stable under pedalling when your weight is nicely balanced over the bike but get a bit more iffy descending when staying balanced and maintaining good technique may get more challenging especially with a bit more speed. That is a strange observation but I guess if they don’t work for you then they don’t work for you.

I certainly find them and the Mud-X much better in Winter than a Trailraker or Swampthing where speed and drier weather/ rock/ root grip starts to get compromised. I ran the Dans with a reasonably high pressure to keep the shape in the thinner sidewalls and keep the benefit of the spikes (low pressure may make them deform and effectively flatten out the spikes- just a theory, certainly not fact :D )

Dirty dans – great when pointing downhill but really poor pedalling traction.

Whaaaat? :D

I think you mean “440-450g, the grip of a long mud spike up and down but much faster rolling than anything else offering the same grip”.

Or maybe you have the heavy DH version in mind :D

I would go with a Dirty Dan or Mud-X. Dirty Dan if you are adverse to pies and the thinner sidewalls won’t concern you or Mud-X if you value a thicker sidewall and aren’t bothered about the extra weight. I feel the Dan gives more grip and clears slightly better than a Mud-X in very thick/ heavy mud while both seem to roll equally well (i.e. better than other mud tyres).

The other beneift of the Dan’s is low prices on various online German stores wrt some of the other mud tyres available

Definitely do it face to face and say you are prepared to buy there and then if….

The justification for the reduction/ extra goodies is key. You have to give them a reason to do the deal you have in mind. How does their price compare to others/ online/ similar brands and models?

I would expect a bit off an ex display, some shops do as much as 10% off but if there really is very little margin in it for them at the reduced price then I can understand why they might not be able to do anything for you on price. Accessories are the way to go in that case. Pedals are 1-2% the value of the bike even at the reduced price, so if you are keen to get a good deal I would be tempted to ask for a bit more. You are spending 2 grand after all

The trick is to have a decent justification for asking for a reduced price (which it sounds like you did old model etc) and not just take the biscuit asking for a reduced cost just for the sake of it.

It could be worth asking if they could include some other items in the sale of the bike at the asking price, even if it was just a different pair of tyres or anything else you might not like on the original spec. That is getting towards cheeky but you never know if you don’t ask!

They really are fit and forget headsets. Even the best tend to go a bit stiff and grindy with enough winter much and abuse but for some reason CK don’t. When you have one you wonder why other manufacturers can’t make their bearings last as long!

Mcgowan, can you email Freeborn and ask if they would like to see the frame in person and if there is even 1% chance of a warranty replacement? I realise you must have emailed them a lot and it is very frustrating but at the moment you seem to be assuming quite a lot of things and this is the crucial point which you have not yet got a definitive answer on. I know I have only suggested this half a dozen times but each time you say you assume no warranty and Freeborn say it is likely not enough seatpost/ shim. Do you have a definite answer one way or another in writing yet if there is 0% chance of a warranty replacement?

Thank goodness the frame has a lifetime warranty because any other frame would have aged beyond the warranty period with the length of this circular thread! :D

Seems a bit 50/50 if looked at from both sides. I would err on the side of Tri-Uk though.

From the point of view of the customer:

I’m not sure how they quantify the cost of the damage. Did she receive a list of repair costs prior to hire? if not I think they should have made it clear that it would cost 15 nicker per chip.

I would have thought “damage charges” should explicitly defined as should “fair wear and tear”. These terms are very clear in the rental of a house/ flat for example as lots of people have already mentioned. It is also odd the front and rear wheel have two different charges as one is a “buckle” and the other an “excessive buckle” :?

From TriUk’s point of view:

Other than the paint chips it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me, the prices are more than I’d get charged at my LBS but that’s a different situation. If the shifters are scratched then that does kinda imply its not been that well looked after and they aren’t cheap bits of kit to replace.

Kind of along the lines of the above. If the damage quoted for is actually real then it does not sound well looked after for the mileage and your friend has had a pretty good deal out of it. For 250 miles on a road bike I would expect it to be absolutely spotless.

Interesting how some people seem to be camels and others less so…

It is interesting. The thing I find most interesting is that is perhaps it is comes down to a perceived required fluid intake versus an actual physiological fluid intake requirement. I feel a lot of the time people feel a lack of water intake has let them down on a ride it more comes down to a lack of energy/ food intake.

For example, would you take water/ fluid on a 1 hour ride? As far as I know the research suggests there is no physiological requirement for fluid during a ride of that duration. Good hydration before and after, yes, but no gains or losses one way or another during.

If you look at the people doing mammothly long rides they don’t have scaffold attachments with 3-4kg+ water attached, it just isn’t efficient, they have a few bottles and plan refill stops

Simplifying the kit you take can be another option (sorry in advance from moving away from the water issue)

For example…
– Ditch the chain tool (use the one on the multi-tool)
– Take a multi-tool with everything you will every need (I like the Topeak Mini 18+)
– Ditch the tube repair kit and take some Park Super Patches. These fit in the multi-tool case.
– Spare Chain quick links also in the multi-tool case!
– Small but effective pump (again, I use a Topeak)
– Velcro strap or elastic band the tyre levers (and maybe even some zip ties) to the multi-tool case. Depending on case these might even fit inside.

This gives you only the multi-tool bundle, pump and a tube to remember to take which you can easily fit in a pocket or two. All that varies between the MTB and road is the tube. If you want to simplify further tape or velcro a tube to each bike.

To be extra paranoid on the MTB in the middle of nowhere I also carry a spare gear cable (had one snap during a long ride!), spare bolts and a spare set of bedded in brake pads inside a very small plastic box a puncture repair kit once came in. I have Park tyre repair patches held on one tube with an elastic band. Also the smallest pen knife just to have a cutting device velcroed on to the multi-tool bundle. Now that is probably overkill bike maintenance-wise and will still fit in 1-2 pockets. Still also only the multi-tool bundle, small plastic box, pump and tube to remember/ lose :D

2x 800ml bottles on the frame should get most people through 3 hours or so unless it is super hot and you are losing a lot of fluid.

It is possible that drinking a lot is a mental rather than physiological requirement so might it be worth giving the 2x 800ml a go for a few rides?

If you really feel you need more then refills really is the most practical option. Carrying 3-4kg of water on the bike won’t be much fun especially if on a road bike.

Also, hydration is super important in the day(s) leading up to a ride not just on the ride itself.

I realise this isn’t quite what you want to hear but would be my opinion of the best practical solution :?

Is using a jersey pocket an option? (sorry for the silly question!)

How much water do you want to carry and what bike is this going on? How may bottle cages could you fit on the frame? How many more bottles are you looking to accommodate?

Bontrager have a 30 day unconditional guarantee to try out too. From their website:

Ride it and love it. If not, we’ll take it back.

It’s that simple.

If for any reason you’re not satisfied with your Bontrager products, return the item – along with the original sales receipt – to the place of purchase within 30 days of purchase date for exchange or store credit.

Saddles are very personal and most would suggest a wide, padded saddle to be most comfortable as it spreads the load, reducing pressure. My opinion on this would be to find the shape that fits you best first and foremost, regardless of padding or cutouts. Padding is a poor compensation for a poorly fitting shape. Similar to Northwond I have not got on with some of these wider saddles and actually prefer something narrower to not dig in or create pressure points around the edges. Hard to describe!

What we have here is classic I warranty issues between customer and seller that need to be sorted out between the two parties AWAY from the internet.

I completely agree. It is good to see the title changed.

Interesting that freeborn/devinci are reading the thread but have chosen not to comment.

The companies won’t want to get involved in an open forum since sensible advice from posters here has been ignored and thrown back at them (even from the likes of Loco!). It is much better dealt with the proper way, i.e. through the warranty process which the OP still hasn’t done more than email them about.

Now I am not disposed to send them the frame, unless they send me a new one before

Resolution seems unlikely though if the OP is not willing to be reasonable. I would be hugely upset too if my frame cracked but expecting a new frame while yours is being inspected (if this is what you mean- the chance of miscommunication is high) seems unreasonable. Cannondale and Scott and similar are generally well regarded for honouring warranties but often customer have to wait 3-6 months to get replacement frames, especially of high end popular models. You can’t expect everything in an instant unfortunately.

Hope they contact the OP with further explanations of their unwritten warranty rules.

I also hope both parties can clear up any misunderstandings or mis-communications since this thread is going round in circles. It would be nice if Freeborn could contact the OP clarifying if the frame should be sent in and the warranty process actually started or if they are convinced there is no warranty claim based on photos alone. This seems to be a large source of the OP’s anger and frustration

DanW – do you have some link to Freeborn? You come across as a bit of a fanboi :-)

No link and no Fanboi :D I just foolishly got sucked in to this thread late last night and foolishly thought offering (what I though) is sensible advice might help the OP.

Rather than some of the whinging here, what is the solution? I have had my input but am out of ideas :wink: No one seems to be offering solutions

Let us all pray the OP does not have Fox Forks! 8O There are enough of those warranty threads :lol:

What good timing for this thread :D

I am a religious glasses wearer while riding, mainly because I feel I can descend faster without worrying about the muck getting flung up in to the eye. Maybe climbing in the pouring rain I might remove them.

Anyway…

I managed to get a small splinter embedded in my eyelid and eye on the one ride I haven’t worn glasses this Summer. Sods Law. I got some muck in the eye but didn’t think much of it at the time. Gradually over a day or two the eye got redder and more sore to the extent of the socket swelling and not being able to open the eye. I had it checked out very early (before it got anywhere near that bad) and the scratches to the cornea were evident but the docs could not find a cause. Then it got worse as above but still no cause found. Eventually when it got really bad the docs were thankfully able to find the very small splinters. Touch wood (not splinters!) it now seems to be on the mend.

A rare and freak accident but painful none the less! I really wouldn’t recommend anyone messing up their eyes and even if you do not do any damage, getting flies/ muck/ whatever in the eye riding off road isn’t much fun

As a long term skeptic of tubeless I have just got everything up and running without tubes. Honestly I wouldn’t go back.

With Stans rims, Schwalbe tyres and 10 minutes checking the correct set up method on Youtube it was a very painless affair.

Main benefit for me is lack of punctures. I don’t like the feel of super lower pressures for most of my riding but it is rather amazing the size of small cuts in the tyre the sealant will seal. So the main benefit is seeing the sealant doing its job sealing small cuts and thorns as you ride along instead of stopping at the side of the trail for 10-20 minutes faffing replacing the tube.

there is no weight benefit with tubeless

Second benefit is weight loss for a Weightweenie like me. A super light but fragile tube is 100g. Most standard tubes are 150-170g. The weight of sealant is 60-70g. That is a rotational weight saving of 80-220g depending on original set up. Might not be significant but nice all the same

Nick, someone has already linked to Devinci’s small print which (though poorly translated) says to use the original seatpost sold with the bike/ frame.

Most things in a warranty small print are there to cover the company and by and large leave a warranty to their discretion I would have said.

These are technicalities though and detracting from the main point…

The main issue is the OP is second guessing Devinci/ Freeborn’s judgement/ discretion/ interpretation and has jumped straight in with complaining on an open forum. If he goes through the warranty process with Freeborn then possibly Devinci too and still has no luck after discussing the in and outs of their wording then fine- the problem is the OP seems unwilling to go through the proper process

I agree with Loco. Do the following or this thread should be closed.

Go through Freeborn first.

Put the frame in the post with a letter explaining the situation (not a letter complaining). Keep it simple and some times less information is better. Do this even if they have not asked you to.

If Freeborn do not give a good solution, only then will Devinci be able to help- you have to go through Freeborn first.

The problem you have is that you have started a 5 page thread complaining before trying to properly resolve this… discretion and good will was likely going to be your best friend in this 50/50 situation…

This thread should be closed if you refuse to send the frame and start the warranty process but instead insist on complaining and dragging Devinci/ Freeborn’s names through the mud while second guessing what may or may not happen.

Forget the previous emails, start fresh and positive, write a nice letter to accompany the frame when you send it in and go from there.

Even if Freeborn say no, contacting Devinci afterwards with an explanation of why you might still be upset is by far the best thing to do. No-one here can help you with that and all you are doing is trying to ruin their business even though they have not formally refused all possibilities.

P.S. Someone has already linked the Devinci small print saying use of the shim will not be covered under warranty (although a poor translation). Despite this the company/ seller may still warranty the frame at their discretion… if they see this thread then good luck with their discretion!

A thread title like “I have just learned a 27.2-31.6 shim may not be a good idea” would have been a far better thread title than “Cheated by DEVINCI/FREEBORN” if that really is your intention to increase shim awareness on STW

Mcgowan, what do you want to happen?

I assume you want a free replacement?

Stop complaining here about what may or may not happen and just send in the damn frame with a nice letter and a nice phone call.

If after sending it in it is not warrantied then consider contacting Devinci directly with a nice letter outlining your concerns.

The least productive thing you can be doing at the moment is whinging on the internet after on quick phone call.

Again, best of luck but do not go in all guns blazing cursing and criticizing! You never know they may turn out to be reasonable folk who sort you out regardless of what small print might say- you never know until you try!

that’s why people train using power rather than HR

Basically this.

We are told we have a max HR and that exercising at different percentages corresponds to different levels of exertion, from cruise all day upto flat out sprint.

These guidelines are quite general and get you roughly in the right areas. Even power does not eliminate all possible variation but it probably beats taking blood samples other more detailed and less practical measures throughout exercise :D You will never be able to train to the Watt or to the exact BPM

I would not trust a re-welded alu frame. Repaired carbon or steel maybe but not alu. £350 for a new front triangle is good deal and a much safer option I would have thought

Send it to them and speak to them. Although they have no reason to give you a new frame for free based on what you have said hereyou may well be surprised. If you don’t send it to them and start the possible warranty progress how can you know what the outcome will be?!