Based on your list, maybe the Epic Evo? What about the new SC Blur?

Epic Evo is the best all around fit and compromise of everything I think I’ve found

SC Blur is also very, very expensive. Also geo and handling is likely to be a backwards step from my custom rigid SS. OK option, but I think there are better options, even if I could afford one :) Obviously it’s the rider not the bike, but if I am to spend a lot of money I’d like to get as close to what I think I like the feel of

Orange must have something that suits?

Not at the light weight, ultra efficient XC racer’s more versatile bike side of the spectrum. Bottle issues too. With the bits I have, I reckon 9.xxkg is doable with the right frame and fork. Certainly sub 10kg even with a longer travel fork.

BMC Fourstroke would be more my type of thing but veeeery expensive and no stock of the new models as far as I can see

Good point!. I think whilst light weight, it has gotten a bit too long travel and mushy for what was originally an XC bike. I think I would feel massively overbiked with a RM Element. Fit-wise, I’d also be in between a M and L. I’ll have to browse the geo adjustments offered with the Ride4 chip to see how close I could get. If anyone has one I’d love to know some real world, non magazine hype thoughts :)

It’s really brutal doing several small jobs in one day, it’s unbelievably messy and heavy work. There’s not nearly enough of these guys around and your guy probably squeezed the job in as a favour to the contractor. In that situation he’s not going to spend hours covering stuff up, traipsing up and down stairs (with messy boots) mixing outside and then cleaning up. The contractor should know the score and have prepared the site for the plasterer’s visit I’d say.

It is certainly a job I don’t envy and I think you are right on the circumstances but I don’t really care who protects the bits around and it should be done one way or another.

I do bathrooms…I even do plastering…what I can’t get my head around is, why did the plaster come into the job at the end?

From what I can gather he was supposed to come earlier then lost his phone, was hard to contact…. and various other excuses that shouldn’t be our worry.

As mentioned above, using a company that has many people doing vari jobs everyone will be pointing fingers away from themselves

As we are now finding having discovered that the bathroom mirror is also scratched. “Was fine when I left, not my fault”

Did the OP mean he was mixing the plaster in a bucket within the confines of the bath or literally mixing it in the actual bath ?

You could be forgiven for thinking that given the mess, but no, mixing in a bucket in the bath, steps in the bath, boots and tools in the bath… I don’t want to be an interfering customer and trust others to do sensible things but lesson learned

Why compensation? The repair will put you back in the position you would have been if it hadn’t been damaged.

I’m not seeing the case for compensation if it can be made good. Compensation would be for going “yeah, don’t worry about it mate, it’s just a little ding” rather than repairing / replacing.

“Compensation” may be the wrong word but basically as you say Cougar

you are doing them a solid in not demanding they just replace it

aaaaannnnd most crucially our expensive bath that should have a 30 year warranty would have the warranty voided by any repair (confirmed with the bath company today)

There’s also no guarantee that the repair doesn’t need redoing every 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, whatever. There is the unknown on the life of the repair on an expensive product.

Choice is in the fitters hands and needless to say that plasterer no doubt cut off his future work through that company.

Other than this, the bathroom is looking great, meets the needs of our disabled son without looking like an adapted bathroom and the quality of all the work has been amazing so we are trying to keep a bit of perspective on the good bits.

Thank you to everyone for the input. I has been really helpful to bring up things we didn’t first think of and try to find a decent final solution. TBC…

Fitters first reaction this morning was “oh just repair that” but to his credit, without any prompting, he said he would replace the bath if that was what we wanted.

I have said please either replace OR repair plus compensation to the value of the bath, whichever they prefer.

I thought that would be an easy decision on their part to go for the second option but he seems to be leaning towards replacement now. That surprised me a bit and now I’m worried they will just take the bath out, repair off site and refit. How can taking everything, supplying a new bath and refitting everything be better value for them than repair + losing the value of the bath? Ugh, nothing is straight forward! I don’t know how people cope with renovating entire houses! :)

Oh, and if it helps anyone in the future, Bette as a bath manufacturer were great to deal with on the phone and get their opinion on warranty implications and their opinion on repairs.

wall to wall with tile meeting the tub at all 3 sides?
If so, its destructive removal, no question.

Yes, tiling on 3 sides of the bath. Sink/ toilet unit pretty much up against the bath too.

There is only a few hours work left to complete the bathroom (fit shower head, fit shower screen, grout tiles, silicone around bath).

Having to undo a week of otherwise really good work seems a massive waste for one chip on the bath. I worry that fitting everything back a second time wouldn’t result in such a good finish, not to mention the wait to get replacement parts and get it all redone. With no other bathroom and no other toilet it is a massive upheaval to do it all again. I’ll know more on Monday!

Good idea to involve the bath company. Bath is a Bette and while they mention chip repair and approved repairers on their website, there isn’t any mention of if the 30 year warranty is affected by an approved repair.

I understand the opinion of replace the bath and nothing less, but if Bette can tell us that the warranty is unaffected by an approved repair and the fitting company can knock a good chunk of money off their final bill then that seems the most sensible thing. I won’t lead with that, I see what the fitting company say on Monday first.

Thank you all for the really helpful input with regards to confirming plastering last is daft/ risky, chipping a new bath is indeed really not good and any remedy needs to take in to account the bath warranty. Good points to help strengthen my position with them.

@blazin-saddles I did wonder if the fitter would offer a repair. Is that something you would personally be happy with for finish and long term durability? Generally speaking, would a decent fitter see a chip on a new bath and be thinking “oh sh..t we need to make that right” or more “don’t know what the fuss is about just put some enamel repair on”?

The overwhelming majority here seem to say replace bath and nothing less. The bath is a tight squeeze in its final position between two sections of wall and there is tiling, sink and cabinets in the way of getting it out at the moment. To me it looks like a major PITA to have to replace the bath but maybe it isn’t, I’m not sure. As a fitter, if you were in a similar position, would you be surprised if the customer wanted their chipped bath replaced and no less?

If you’ve contracted the work to one company I’d be insisting on a replacement, with holding final payment (you do have a retention don’t you?) and not taking no for answer.

The company work like quite a few others, where the company has been paid their half but the fitter payment is the half currently not paid.

Plastering was due at the start of the week but the guy proved unreliable and hard to get in at the right time from what I can gather. Should have seen the warning signs then

The refs allow latching before contact, sealing off and taking out defenders way past the ruck

I asked what was new ;) But yes I guess you are right. The latch law is one I missed too.

Some great matches this 6N… and also some Welsh games :( It is great to see the majority of sides having the ability and desire to play in a way which entertains.

Anyway, apologies if this has already been discussed, but can someone explain why the tap and go within the forwards seems to have come back in to fashion? For the last 10-15 years I don’t recall the option used much. In the near past a team would call for a scrum or kick to the corner. Still options of course but there seems to be a lot more tap penalties. Has anything changed to make a tap an go close to the opponents line more attractive. Maybe my perception is wrong but it does seem to be a more used option and it makes sense IMO. Maybe it is just that forwards now have decent enough handling skills to manage to nudge the ball forward with their feet and not then fumble it spectacularly as they try to pick it up :D

It is a new model so there is no stock anywhere on top of the general manufacturing problems but the build status was the best level and a lead time of 7 months.

Not ideal but hopefully worth the patience for what we gain over the next 3 years.

No modifications as our son is 3 and we are not sure how his needs will change in that time.

Thanks everyone for their input and thoughts. It certainly helped me to get up to speed with this new and alien (to me) world of bigger cars.

In the end we have put an order in for a Ford Grand Torneo Connect through Motability.

If you want 7 seats on Motability then you don’t have too many options. There are massive cars (eg Vivaro), massive advance payments (eg Combi Electric), SUV’s or for us it boiled down to a Caddy Maxi or Grand Torneo. Despite the Ford having a larger advance payment and basically being a Caddy Maxi for 2023, it seems to have better finishing touches and was offered in more engine and gearbox options than the VW which is only one diesel option in manual or automatic.

The only downside now is the lead time so it is all a bit back to square one for an unknown amount of months. I’m thinking a cheap Zafira is the way to go as a stop gap as there aren’t many cheapish cars of this type in the used market at the moment. The journey continues :)

Thank you everyone for your help- not the end result I was envisaging at the start but one I think will work for us in the end all being well!

@DanW I think your best bet is to have a sit in as many of them as you can and judge them against your particular needs.

Indeed :) This thread has been exceptionally helpful in giving us some extra things to think about and helped narrow down the selection a bit I think. Thanks!

Maybe a van with seats, like the Berlingo Ford Connect, Caddy Maxi would be suitable. In terms of footprint they’re like a biggish estate car.

Do these converted van-car things get taxed, insured or treated any differently in any way? Anything to be aware of if we were to go that route?

Zafira… worst headlights of any modern car I’ve ever driven

Alhambra… sliding doors weigh so much they are pretty dangerous with little ones

S-Max… Seats 6 & 7 were definitely pop up seats for occasional use and you had to clamber into them. Also left very little boot space.

Some silly design oversights that really annoyed me. Things fell out the glove box when it was opened and the boot is higher than the bumper, not even flat, so shopping bags would fall out when you opened the boot. Drove nicely enough but got rid as soon as we could.

These are all really interesting, thanks. It’s this type of thing which maybe aren’t initially apparent but can become real bugbears when you are stuck with the car.

I find my van a really nice place to be on a long trip. They have a nice upright seating position and decent seats. I’ve done Cheshire to Belgium or Cornwall in mine a few times, no bother. I’d not discount them for that reason without trying one.

That is interesting, thanks. Quite a few people at the additional needs school seems to have a Torneo Connect which looks a good overall footprint and interesting in being able to fold down the passenger seat or remove all seats completely if ever needed.

Alhambra/ Sharan turning circle

Interesting to see some different view points but it sounds like my understanding the Seat was a little improved is wrong. I can see a poor turning circle being a massive daily annoyance where we are. See 4:41 below

I think we would be looking something a little more compact too, at least at this point in time given children sizes and where we live

Berlingo Ford Connect, Caddy Maxi

I started to discount them as they seem to be the more expensive options. Also possibly fine as a day to day car but not much fun for longer trips

The longer trips are important for us as our son requires too much equipment for any time away via plane or similar, so any breaks away would have to be by car unfortunately. We are at a bit of a breaking point in not being able to have any change of scenery with our current Honda Jazz and the need for a small trip away is a big motivator for the new car.

Peugeot 5008

That is a decent recommendation to look in to thanks. I have had a 2008 as a hire car a few times and really liked it to drive and as a nicely thought out car in general

^ awesome, thank you!

We will hopefully be in receipt of a blue badge soon too so that may take away some of the parking and external size worries but a dedicated space isn’t always available

The modern MPV is just a van platform with windows and seats.

That seems fair and I was worried that impacts size and around town/ motorway practicalities as a family car which needs a bit more space but not necessarily van sized space.

Motability defintely worth considering but if you’re buying then worth looking at the Japanese import MPVs – they’re excellent. You can also get them with various disability adaptions (seats that articulate out, etc) which are incredibly well done by the Japanese, and if you qualify for Motability then you should be able to buy without VAT.

I am yet to really look in to Motability. I am familiar with the scheme but so far I have approached some adapted vehicle garages which seems to mainly be about fitting wheelchair space and a ramp which we don’t necessarily need, or approaching normal dealers who do cars on the motability scheme and they all said they won’t even discuss a new car with be as they have too much of a backlog of other customer already waiting too many months for a car

Would you have a quick link to an example of this type of import? Ta!

^ Basically the same but YooToob ancient reviews seem to indicate a few tweaks like the turning circle on the Alhambra. It would be interesting to know if that is correct if anyone has one?

My folks have some kind of modern large VW and they have abysmal turning circle too

Thanks @Harry_the_spider The S-Max does seem to be a popular one for massive boot space and being decent to drive. I was a bit surprised about the back seats too but I guess in the life of a family with children as passengers it would rarely be a problem? I can’t see us ever putting any adults we actually like in the rear seats of any of these types of car :)

Diesel was also one of the points I wasn’t sure on- any real life issues or disadvantages beside cost at the pump?

I should also add that we are eligible for the Motability scheme so new cars are an option with the downsides of longer term cost, worrying about cosmetic damage with children and lack of availability of new cars…

Great thread and really interesting read.

I have started running this past year after frustrations with the amount of work travel restricting riding time. It has also been good to get out in the countryside with my wife so all in all a nice change :) A new work colleague also runs a 2:20 marathon and loves a big run in the hills so I am in danger of catching the running bug :)

So the question…

Does anyone have any recommendations for a trip away this time of the year for a few days of smallish runs purely for a change of scenery and a treat? Somewhere with some nice 10-20km runs in easy access, decent enough weather and somewhere you can switch off for a few days would be good.

I was thinking of somehwere like Deia, Mallorca and making use of the GR221 route in various directions but I think the elevation changes will be a bit of a killer over my short distances and probably more of a hike. Gran Canaria maybe???

Ta!

I posted things first class in November which have only just been delivered.

The advice I received in the Post Office was that delivery times for first class items are expected to be 3-4 weeks as a maximum and not claim before then.

I would be very cautious about refunding for items not yet delivered on your time scales as the chances are it will turn up soon and you will lose the item, lose the money for the item and lose the ability to claim anything from Royal Mail. Annoying for the buyer but that is the reality of the Royal Mail at the moment.

I would apologise to the buyer and state the expected delivery time is 3-4 weeks (feel free to ask your own Post Office if it reassures). Therefore if the item hasn’t arrived in 4 weeks you will refund. Make sure you have a claim in with Royal Mail a few days earlier so if you do decide to refund the buyer then the chances are Royal Mail will refund you.

If the buyer doesn’t want the item due to the delay then that is understandable and I would accept a return once the item is delivered- but I wouldn’t be rushing to refund any purchases without first having received the value from Royal Mail first (I hope that makes sense!)

Yep, even the likes of Schwalbe are heavy nowadays for the level of grip and puncture protection each model offers.

I am a similar weenie but truth is you have to accept a bit more weight than you are used to.

Bontrager offer a really nice balance of low weight/ durability/ grip/ speed/ puncture protection/ easy to live with. I use XR4 2.4 F&R in winter and XR4 F, XR3 R, both 2.4 when the trails are more mixed. Volume is very generous too from Bontrager so you can easily size down compared to other brands (random volumes between brands who state the same width is another mine field for weight weenies! :) )

The only real light option left IMO which again offer low weight/ durability/ grip/ speed/ puncture protection/ easy to live with, would be Continental Protection tyres. If it is bone dry and you don’t need much volume then my Conti Race King 2.2 575g are per tyre and crazy fast. X-King are also nice for low weight, speed and more grip but they don’t have Bontrager XR4/ XR3 levels of grip and puncture protection.

Did my first ever little gravel bike adventure today

I need a bag I can put my jacket in

Love that you have gone full “gravel” on the first ride :D

What would you do on a road ride and what is wrong with your jersey pocket now the tyres get more dirty? :) Genuinely packable jacket and fewer bags are much better IMO. Strap it to the seatpost if you really can’t bear it in a pocket. Lighter too ;) I can’t stand bags so your mileage may vary :)
HANDY STRAP – 15g

SRAM brakes on a dream build :D

Trickstuff something or other would be nice :)

Also an integrated dropper like the Eightpins design or maybe the old BMC Trailfox style where the dropper matches the suspension settings in one push

What @ads678 said

Cotic Solaris Max style geometry in carbon at under 1kg for the frame
36×10-52 for Road to MTB covered (wireless)
Would be lovely if those 120mm or 100-140mm external travel adjust forks could be locked out in their travel (ie not lock out extended- did Magura used to do this?). Rigid if this fantasy fork never gets made again
Light and tough 30mm internal carbon rims on DT Swiss 240 hubs (deep section carbon rims are wasted as you get to wider gravel tyres)
Custom CF MTB 750mm wide bars with removable custom arm rest and aero extensions
All the lightest, durable finishing kit to try and keep it under 9kg
Something like Bontrager XR4/ XR3 2.4’s off road, fastest durable ~40mm gravel tyres for road/ mixed road
Seatpack filled with Wiggins’ brown envelopes :)

Thanks @jezzep and @cromolyolly for your perspectives- makes total sense along with the others who have, and love, gravel bikes. Slightly more adaptable/ practical road bike seems to be the trend.

My hope for some kind of drop bar bike, be it a CX bike, gravel bike, all road bike, whateverthelatestsubgenreofthesamethingis was for faster and more comfortable long rides on the least technical off road rides.

Happy to admit I was sucked in by the hype and I’m glad I had a bike over the weekend to get a few rides in and see where they fit in to my own preferences.

I was probably actually more disappointed when looking in to CX bikes, hoping they would offer something for some faster road riding and still be fast off road. By and large the trend looks the same as gravel bikes where the geometry is only fractionally different from the race bikes and in many cases the frames are exactly the same as the road bikes and only the build changes the genre/ definition/ use/ whatever.

By the sound of it I am about a decade late on that optimism of a CX bike being a “quiver killer” ;) :)

@idlejon are you saying my bike is niche? Less common maybe, but pretty much a default “bikepacking” MTB nowadays which is another buzz word for another day :) 2.2 is fairly usual XC width rather than skinny, and wider than most gravel bikes will take so significantly different enough from a gravel setup I’d have said. Likewise the geometry is significantly different to a gravel bike with no real downsides once you leave road bike territory

Maybe I should have titled the thread “Why are all drop bar bikes so similar off road to a luddite and where are they better off road than a “bikepacking” MTB”? :)

Those offering a HT as an alternative to a gravel bike aren’t talking about modern LLS HTs, rather the sort with short travel forks and skinny tyres?

As I said earlier, my rigid SS is 66 HTA, 470mm reach (I’m 5’9″), 1200mm+ wheelbase and with 2.2 Conti Racekings and I don’t see any benefits to a gravel bike on the tame, long KAW/ SDW style off road routes that gravel bikes are marketed for. Even more so if I fit some gears.

The rigid part is the bit that makes these technically easier but longer routes more challenging compared to a hardtail or full sus and also adds some snappiness in the climbing and accelerations which I think appeals to people on gravel bikes.

I do think there is a misconception that LLS must be “bad” in some way for less technical off road routes. I think the suspension and build determine that more. I certainly wouldn’t want to do these rides on a 30lb+ 130mm forked hardtail. My rigid bike is still plenty twitchy and “XC” feeling and is certainly no boat when you need a bit of responsiveness. Modern geometry is way too cautious IMO and with a lighter build on LLS geo, possibly even with a rigid fork I reckon you get the best of all worlds

What makes a ‘gravel bike’?

Objectively what I have learnt from this thread is “road bike with big tyres”.

That was the main goal of the thread for and not to bash gravel bikes. ^ That was my interpretation on a quick test ride and looking at geo charts and I haven’t seen anything here that challenges that.

All those who say they like the challenge of riding a gravel bike on some off-road bits I wonder if they may also “feel the trails come alive” with a rigid 29er? Maybe both work relative to whatever you are most used to and it becomes a question of bar preference more than anything.

Interestingly the Cycling Weekly review of the Evil gravel bike raised another point I had wondered about which was despite the edgy marketing and slack angles, it is still hard work off road due to the road position/ fit and drop bars which make it hard to get the front wheel out of holes and not just plough in to everything.

I think I’ve come to the conclusion that the gravel dream the marketeers are selling is BS for me and if I were looking at a non-technical off road route like say KAW then I’d be better suited to a rigid 29er with fast tyres and if I fancy some curly bar speed then I’d go full aero weenie with a modern “race” bike

Nah, cross and gravel bikes are chunks faster than MTBs on trails like that.

the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail………….FACT

Going back to my Tour Divide example, some people fit aero bars to MTBs and some people bulk up gravel style bikes and as far as I recall, the MTB (and of course rider) is most often fastest. Or the fastest guys and girls choose the MTB depending how you look at it. That is obviously an extreme event but probably a good illustration of what gravel bikes are sold as (long distance in comfort and speed), but not really being that good at IMO

Even gravel double track was terrifying and I struggled to get any speed up for fear of all things bad. This is with the context of enjoying a road bike on the road and bombing around on a rigid SS which isn’t exactly forgiving off road either.

I would agree that the average MTB very much dulls a lot of the rides I would naturally do. I put a 100mm SID on my rigid SS and hated it. I think in my SS, I may have just found the balance of “making the trails come alive” and not having too many 20p/ 50p moments than I’d ideally like which makes bouncier MTBs and twitchier gravel bikes feel a bit pointless

No problem with drop bars and spend a reasonable time on road bikes.

Started MTB around 20 years ago where a Marin Mount Vision was an absolute revelation to how fast you could go off road :)

I think the conclusion I’m coming to is a “gravel” bike is a trendy road bike for UK churned up roads and the occasional cautious off road shortcut which you wouldn’t do on a full on road bike, rather than a more varied hand position MTB for longer less technical rides which was my original thought.

Good to hear I am not too far wide of the mark on my first impressions :)

Drop bars also have more places to put your hands than flat bars.

This was part of what got me on to trying gravel bikes. I had the vision of a MTB with a little less technical ability but more hand position variation to increase long distance comfort.

In reality, I believe a well designed rigid 29er MTB with Conti 2.2 Racekings will be faster than just about any curly bar bike off road, even tow paths and long forest roads. If you need variation in hand positions and want to be more aero then fit some aero bars…

… which is what I guess most of the fastest Tour Divide style bikes end up being.

I also don’t get why road bikes in general have to be so short and twitchy when their job is by and large going very fast in straight or nearly straight lines. Road bike geometry seems even more backwards than the XC bike market a few years ago and even that is slow to change for goodness knows what reason. Feel twitchy and near death experiences = racey fast???