If I’m out of watered down mucoff (usually) I use watered down kitchen or bathroom surface cleaner spray, it seems to have greater similarites to muc off than fairy liquid and it’s in a handy squirty bottle. Lifts the dirt off nicely, no obvious side effects.

In all seriousness I really wouldn’t used bathroom sprays if they contain sodium hypochlorite (check the label), its a chlorine donor (bleach) and is highly corrosive. Sames for QACs which some contain.

In that case washing up liquid would certainly be the better choice.

What about something that supports under the bb and downtube?

That would get round the issues of tt diameter and odd formed frames etc.

Contrary to popular belief the S on smaller size frames stands for ‘Short Arse’.

So you need a size S.

@7hz +1

Following the previous discussion I decided to repeat some of my tests, not vs competitor products but vs substitute products, i.e. washing up liquid and tfr as suggested here.

http://dirtwork.posterous.com/washing-up-liquid-and-traffic-film-remover

Dont forget to factor in the time to strip it down and ball ache of doing loads of ads and sending loads of parcels!

I drink every night and have done for as long as I can remember. I said on Sunday I was not going to drink Mon – Thurs this week.

But had 3 bottles of Peroni last night. Going to try and not drink tonight.

Probably about £500 all in but I’ll take it for £550?

Anyone tried Elbow Grease?

I’d like to know where to get this.

I’ve tried lots of things, and for preference, out of everything I’ve tried, I use washing up liquid or liquid clothes detergent.

So you honestly found it easier using washing up liquid in a bucket with a sponge or something than just spraying with Muc Off or other product and just rinsing with a hose?

Oh and try putting washing up liquid in your dishwasher then tonight. :D

Gee, really?

You’re really arguing yourself in circles. You can’t say one minute that all cleaning products work for all applications. Then feign mock surprise when someone points out that there are a myriad of different components to a chemical and that the skill lies in picking the right one for the application in hand.

Everything “works” to an extent, its really effectiveness which you touched on earlier – Does Muc Off clean your bike better than washing up liquid?

People that have tried above in this thread say yes. I doubt you have tried or you would have mentioned earlier.

Don’t get yourself worked up, go and have a relaxing bath, if you want bubbles, washing up liquid is the same as bubble bath. :wink:

For the people saying that shower gel and washing up liquid because the ingredients look the same – you need to consider that a surfactant is just a generic term – there are hundreds of surfactant that all perform differently and for different applications.

For instance look at the below – that’s just the surfactants available from one Manufacturer and Distributor. Not counted but well over 100 I’d say – just from them! Now someone will chime in and say they’re all the same (Crikey?!) which is the basis of some of the previous arguments but hey.

http://www.univareurope.com/uploads/documents/fi/dow%20surfactant%20table%20chart.pdf

The skill in formulating specialist chemicals of course is selecting the right blend for your application.

There’s probably no reason why you shouldn’t – apart from the smell it’s pretty similar to shower gel, with the exception that shower gel tends to have more salt to thicken it.

Wash your hair with it I dare you! :wink:

I don’t dispute that there are ‘better’ bike cleaners out there, and I’m all for the development of new stuff.

Good!

I do have a big problem with the idea that the best way to sell a product is to imply a problem with the competition/alternative that then doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny.

This wasn’t what I was doing (if this is directed at me) – I was adding some facts to the earlier comments of salt. Indeed if you see what I said I said it wouldn’t rust your bike away, just aggravate the potential for rust – which it will.

Washing up liquid will clean your bike, just not as well as other products – as testified by people above who have tried.

This is silly; washing up liquid has to get grease off, be ‘kind to hands’ and rinse away leaving little or no residue; that’s what I want from a bike cleaner.

Important to note here that not all grease is not the same, and a bike cleaners primary objective is to clean, remember it is not a degreaser.

There is a market out there for the next new wonder stuff, but unless it’s as cheap and effective as washing up liquid I’m not really interested.

It will never be as cheap as washing up liquid as it container more actives and more expensive actives at that. But it is more effective – try washing your bike with Muc Off some time.

See this is why I originally posted this topic, having always used fairy liquid and then seeing how easy the dirt came off when using the Muc off. Honestly if you have not tried it, it’s like chalk and cheese!

Exactly.

If you’re interested in seeing how different products perform, look at this, the one’s on the right are both mine and less than 0.5% different – but there is a clear difference in performance.
http://dirtwork.posterous.com/dev-samples-8-and-9-ready-to-release-for-test

..given that the properties of washing up liquid; adequate degreasing ability, cheapness, availablity, low incidence of skin problems, ecologically acceptable, good rinsability, low residue, pleasant smell in use would all appear to be exactly what I want from a product which cleans bikes, yes I do.

If you ride your bike though baked beans and chips then sure. And you could say the same about hair shampoo, face wash, pretty much all cleaning products.

Look, I’m not saying Washing Up liquid won’t clean your bike, it will. So will hair shampoo and many other household products. But they will all perform differently.

If you don’t believe that then try your own tests. I have and can tell different products do perform differently. Ultimately it comes down to do you want a product that works ok or one that is the best for the job at hand and formulated with that job in mind.

In relation to your questions re salt I don’t have time to work it out but I agree with the thrust of your of questioning which is that the %age of salt is low, and lower in solution etc.

Crikey lots of questions.

You could check a SDS to check concentrations of Sodium Chloride, I’d imagine its around 2%.

The point is of course you end up with a saline solution, however weak or strong, that unless you are very careful will get where you don’t want it.

The bigger point is that do you think a commodity product formulated t clean dishes is going to be as good as a product specifically formulated for cleaning bikes (or cars, or anything).

Do you shower in washing up liquid?

No one’s saying its going to rust your bike away, I said it would “aggravate the potential” which frankly it will.

Enough posts around about peoples steel frames rusting, these people shouldn’t use washing up liquid which will “aggravate the potential” for further rusting.

A few facts (but don’t let this get in the way!).

TFR’s are “harsh”, pH 12+ and normally built with caustic soda actives or metasilicates that hydrolyse to caustic, both of which can be aggressive to paint and aluminium.

A properly formulated bike cleaner would be formulated sympathetically to above, employ alkalis that are known to be passivators, particularly for alloys and be safe in long term application. They’d also likely contain higher levels of surfactant and be better at breaking and lift dirt such as mud and grease.

Also remember the very high pH of TFR should not enter the surface water rain water drains post use.

As for the washing up liquid most if not all are viscosity modified with various levels of common salt – Sodium Chloride – which again will aggravate the potential for corrosion / oxidation – obviously red rust on ferrous iron or white oxides with un-lacquered aluminium.

They’re really good this series I think.

He and that restaurant are amazing, have eaten there, the English guy is from Yorkshire! They all come out and serve and explain the dishes, was a surprise to get a thick northern accent! Real moving, inspirational food.

I know that true. But I want to buy something!

I just got the £20 kit from Troutie today. Thanks!

But I’ve realised its a little above my tech ability and that I dont really have time….

If anyone wants it let me know, I’ll send on for the original £20 for anyone that wants it!

And for those mentioning about buying repackaged carvan cleaner I should add my Dirt Work is formulated from scratch, for a bike, by chemists!

As you may have seen I’m working on formulating a new bike cleaner – just taken it out of lab now (9 iterations) for real world testing. Test samples have gone out to a few people. In the lab its performed better than competitor products so fingers crossed.

You can read a little about it and keep up to date

http://dirtwork.posterous.com/

To add to previous comments, I wouldn’t use TFR on my bike, too caustic. I wouldn’t use washing up liquid either due to the salt – won’t rust your bike away but won’t help bearings and steel cavities it finds its way into.

Grip – Brake Lever – Shifter.

In that order.

Outside the brake levers.

XT shifters FWIW

Thanks – and chainring/crankset suggestions?

Worth making the move? I’m on a triple at the moment, never shift to the granny or big ring…

2 year olds dont either..

I’ve bought from them before – no problems.

I think chilli would kill them? just a bit of salt imo.

Just toast in a dry frying pan

Those Moots are out of date what you need is a Kent Eriksen! Mine is schweeet!

They are nice – did you buy on line and they ship to UK ok?

If you take the mini to some big hills, i.e. alps or similar then you are very likely to have issues! M4s all the way

I don’t go much further than the South Downs!

Me and my brother used to jump with 3 8ft power kites stacked. We stopped when he ended up in casualty.

Hmm those Moots ones are nice, thanks for that.

Just the best one please.

Don’t get a 996. 80’s 911 all the way!