Join a team closer to home?

, but I think instinctively they know that repaying the debt is a load of rubbish,

I think you give the general public too much credit. Hence why we have had 10 years of tory Austerity.

But is it split down the middle? During his conference speech most of the party seemed to unite behind him. Thee was a small minority heckling but hardly anything like 50%?

Yep same when Corbyn took over. It was the centrists who refused to compromise

Ok lets just keep the infighting going and resign ourselves to Tory rule forever. Great!

They’re being shafted by student debt, rapacious boomer landlords, slave wages in shitty jobs, and the biggest of all, by climate change which is going to rob them of their future

The quote about the young is wrong I agree.

I completely agree with your point above as do most others on this thread. Where we differ is on how to fix it. I suggest that we tried with a left wing labour government twice and failed twice, I suggest some compromise is required from the left to get a labour government in power to stat to fix these issues. If we can’t get labour into power we can’t fix these issues.

Whats being asked is that people take a cold, harsh, objective look at the reality of the country we live in and its repeatedly stated desires. If its ever to have a cat in hells chance of gaining power, then at least be prepared meet the electorate half way

Otherwise there is nothing but permanent opposition. And ideological purity and righteous indignation will get you precisely nowhere

100% this, those on the left seem utterly incapable of compromising in any fashion. All we shall see because of this is continued Tory crap. Its at this point I am glad to live in Scotland as at least we would have the opportunity to escape it however sad that may be.

Dazh he said no such thing. Are you capable of forming an opinion out with the Corbyn echo chamber you reside in?

In an ideologically simplistic world maybe, but this really isn’t a black or white choice is it?

It really is that simple. With FPTP it can’t be anything else.

I get you hate Corbyn and would love him to fail so that we can 5 more years of Tory that you can say ‘I told you so’ blah blah…

I would have voted for him the first and second time quite happily, but I live in Scotland so voted SNP. I don’t hate Corbyn, I hate that he is put on some pedestal as they greatest Labour leader of modern times despite having lost twice.

Starmer and co is better than the current Tory mob. Its not what you would choose but being further left was tried twice and failed twice.

Exactly, it’s easy to compare government finances to that of a person as that makes sense to people. Unfortunately as we know its a total fallacy but its simple and the Torys do simple understandable slogans well. It doesn’t matter if they are false.

Polling since 1992 on which party is best placed to manage the economy (YouGov + Gallup):

Currently…
Con: 33%
Lab: 17%

Last time Labour got more than 30%?
2010

Last time Labour got more than 40%?
2005

More from @bnhwalker: https://t.co/313uTcCDiz pic.twitter.com/7v2KueoosF

— Britain Elects (@BritainElects) September 30, 2021

This shows what Labour are up against with the general public.

So you watched the news then

No.

We get you hate Starmer and would love him to fail so that we can have 5 more years of Tory so that you can say “I told you so” its tedious and unfortunately the poorest in society will suffer the most.

So; the Labour Party conference was a complete failure for Starmer,

Only amongst JC fans it was. The general opinion I am seeing out with the JC circle was positive. The reality is though that the average joe on the street will be paying zero attention.

Well, it’s not going to happen by magic.
It needs people to come up with ideas and to implement them. What are they?

I don’t think you are interested, you have made your mind up despite there being evidence out there for you to find, including a 90 minute speech yesterday. You want a socialist utopia and Starmer won’t deliver this so you won’t vote for him. This will result in another Tory government which is far worse than a Starmer led Labour government. Remember this when Labour lose again and the poor get poorer our NHS gets even worse etc.

Can you explain how life would improve under a Starmer Labour government?

Really? You honestly think that life would not be improved by having a Starmer led Labour Government in power compared to this current lot? It might not be the socialist utopia you yearn for but it would be an improvement on this current lot. To make changes you have to be in power and with a FPTP system that involves compromising.

Your all or nothing attitude will just give us years more of Tory, it is utterly infuriating and depressing.

For a bit more insight into this there is a good thread on UKC. https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/expedition+alpine/tom_ballard_documentary-739571
There are suggestions Jim Ballard was not an overly nice man possible emotional or physical abuse and one of the reasons Alison climbed K2 was that it would boost her profile and therefore gain her enough money to be able to afford to leave him.
I don’t know the back story but have a read.

The general public won’t accept a complete swing to the left all of a sudden, regardless of how much some poster on this forum wants it for their own ideals. The JC show proved that

Exactly that.

But the Labour left shout about their loss in 2017 as some kind of win as a counter argument and fully blame the Labour right for this.

Starmer taking time out to slag the SNP – I’m looking forward to seeing the next polls on support for independence

There are a lot of people in Scotland who are unhappy with the SNP. There record on education for example is woeful. I voted them in Westminster elections purely because the other option is Tory. There are many others in my boat.
This idea that Scottish Independence is a magic wand is as crazy as Brexit, I am not saying I wouldn’t vote for it but the SNP have a lot of work to do to convince me its a good idea. Better to build bridges than walls.
My preference would be a Labour led Westminster government seeking closer ties to the EU, but if we continue down the constant road of tory governments then I will be more likely to vote Indy.

The SNP is a broadchurch and I don’t think it’s voters are quite as socialist as some would have you think. For example would the anti English morons would be more likely to go down a UKIP/Brexit party line once Indy is achieved, if they hate the English are the really going to be welcoming to foreigners? Then there are people like me who are on the fence with Indy but purely because we are so fed up with 10 years of Tory in Westminster.

Danh you said they are all the same earlier so it doesn’t matter if its left right or whoever in charge, they are all lying and in it for themselves.

What do you lot want from him or any other politician? You don’t like him or want him as leader we get that but now you are just nit picking. One question above was “what is the insulation made of?” Seriously how much detail do you want in a speech? According to danh they are all liars anyway so it would not matter who was in charge JC included as it would just end up being tory again no matter what. This thread is exasperating!

They were forced into that due to a pandemic, do you really belive they would have done it otherwise? Is increasing NI payments economically left?

If you don’t trust all politicians regardless of party why bother getting so annoyed at Starmer? By your logic it doesn’t matter what party or leader they will all lie and just do what they want.

Without radical change, the status quo is what you get irrespective of the party in charge

This is nonsense, Johnson and his mates are dragging us way to the right. To say that Starmers Labour are just the same (which is what your hinting at) is just silly. He may not give the radical change you want but that is different to being the same.

Why do you assume they won’t do it? It just comes across as looking for excuses to not vote Labour and thereby keeping the Tories in power.

Perhaps you could try and educate me

You will be lucky, mostly you will get snide comments about how you are wrong and not left enough and basically a Tory.

Bridges, would you prefer a Tory government or a Labour one run by the likes of SKS? Not voting for Labour, depending on constituency, is giving the Tories your vote.

T&T
That sums up exactly how I feel, it is a joke, and neither side is helping.

Not until they more closely resemble a party that represents working people, and is committed to helping create a better society. Because currently, they aren’t.

For a lot of people who live in a Tory/Labour swing seat not voting labour will result in more Tory. Would it not be better to hold your nose and vote Labour rather than get the Tories again?

If you live in a solid seat for either party I can understand this stance.

What will actually happen, is that those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo will use their considerable power and influence over the media to disseminate all kinds of bullshit about how bad such an idea will be for the nation, whilst throwing in all sorts of red herrings about ‘immigrants’ benefitting more than Hardworking British People™ from it, and lo; the General Public will lap it up and oppose it without realising it’s in most of our best interests. See; Brexit.

Exactly this.

By controlling the media. Or at least having some of it on your side.

And how do you go about doing that?

That is not what I said at all. They had the balls to argue for an alternative under Corbyn twice and it failed. How do you get the message out that £15 an hour is credible without getting slated? Look what happened when they talked about free broadband.
I am not arguing they shouldn’t do it I am asking how they get people on side that it is a good idea? The alternative is more Tory rule.

the sight of of supposed lefties on here complaining that a £15 an hour minimum wage will make their shopping more expensive

I certainly wasn’t complaining. My major concern with it is that the electorate will not swallow it as an affordable or possible idea. The plan will certainly not wash with the RW media. If Labour go down this route it will be used as a stick to beat them with. How do you suppose Labour get around that issue?

Even if the £15 an hour is credible, how do you suppose Labour sell it as fiscally responsible given the right wing press will obliterate it. Brexit shows people will happily vote against their interests.

Brexiteer Corbyn could barely contain his glee in getting that triggered immediately.

He did better than a lot of people expected in 2017 for sure. He then did spectacularly worse!

Grum, are you seriously suggesting Corby did better than Blair?
The only thing that matters is getting elected with our FPTP system. Blair won twice, Corbyn lost twice. Looking at it in any other way while we have FPTP is pointless.

Where did I say he did better or worse than the centrists? Blair clearly did better than the Tories as he got elected. The fact remains Corbyn lost twice, its that simple.

It’s funny how people see what they want to isn’t it.

Is this meant to be ironic?

just imagine the difference it would make to have a PM who is genuinely compassionate and interested in the lives of normal working people

It would be great. Corbyn had that quality, but failed twice.

It’s funny cos I know of one guy who was amazing at talking to normal people

You say this as if Labour should have kept him. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is unlikely to happen.
Is Starmer the right person for the job? It doesn’t look like it at the moment, but I would much rather a Labour government led by him than a Troy one led by Johnson. Small steps but unfortunately some people feel its all or nothing which will result in more Tory rule.

My statement was nothing to do with Starmer. As Grum kindly shows Corbyn lost 2 elections in a row.

Shame he was terrible at winning elections