On many bikes listed above it was mentioned that an angleset was not possible due to the integrated headset. That isn’t the case antmore:
https://m.pinkbike.com/news/9point8-announces-the-slack-r-headset-angle-adapter.html

Thought I’d share.

Bikeradar review: https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/voodoo-bizango-carbon-review/

If they just left some room for a 2.4-2.5 tyre it would’ve been perfect. Possibly would’ve earned them a 5 star rating as well.

Voodoo Bizango Carbon: first ride review

Quite positive first impression. Good ride comfort.

fitted a dropper post which I suspect will be too high at fully extended if I got the larger frame.

How much is the collar of the dropper above the seat tube? If it is 3cm or more, the larger site would fit (42 vs. 45cm seat tube).

How tall are you?

Says on the website that the M and L will be in stock again in January. Geometry now listed as well.

If they would wanted to change the location of that recess, they would most likely have to redesign the bottom bracket area mould. That’s more than just a running change. Probably cost prohibitive.

2.3 is not too bad, just that 2019 you would hope for a bit more for something that otherwise looks very contemporary and well thought out.

Thanks a lot Mark, that’s very clear and useful. In the second photo it almost looks like there’s a small recess in the chainstay for the tire which seems not exactly in the right spot.

Size L is sold out for the moment, probably they’ll get a new shipment within a few weeks.

There is an article on the homepage:
https://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/voodoo-bizango-carbon-1000/

They probably didn’t see this thread, before posting it.

If anyone got a change to get a photo of the tyre clearance, that would be awesome.

They’re already out:

https://www.specialized.com/gb/en/hillbilly-grid-trail/p/173632?color=272220-173632

Called “Grid Trail”.

Awesome, might give it a try on the front.

Apparently a new Grid+ casing is being released so that might suit you better andybrad.

Source?

That would be good news.

Shame about the rear clearance but it looks ace otherwise

Agree, looks nice. A 2.3 Minion is a 58mm tire. If there was still a little room for a 60-61mm, it would be enough for me.

My wive uses the purgatory 2.3 grid in the rear. I use a Eliminator 2.3 blck diamond in the back.

Purgatory:
– I think the the purgatory has a very well balanced profile. Very good compromise between rolling resistance and grip, with the side knobs having a very useful amount of more grip still.
– The compound is a very good compromise between grip and durability.

Drawbacks:
– 2.3 is too small. It measures 56mm (carcas) on an 22.5mm internal rim. 2.6 is a large step. Wish they would make a 61mm one.
– Side wall leaks sealant. The grid carcas is strong enough for my wives weight (so too fragile for many), but it will start too loose air/sealant towards the end of it’s life.

Eliminator blck diamond:
– Brilliant carcas. Very good compromise between weight, damping and strength. Much better protection than for instance EXO and I don’t worry riding without inserts, with the pressure I want in the Alps.
– Nice size with 61mm (carcas) on 26mm internal width rims.

Drawbacks:
– Good compound for the front, but a bit fast wairing at the rear (a lot of grip though). Can make it a expensive tire for the rear.
– some knobs might be a bit small to hold up for park use (although the side knobs are starting to give in earlier).
– Of course not the fastest rolling, but that is to be expected with such a grippy tire.

Summary:
If they make a Purgatory with a size in between the 2.3 and 2.6 and stronger sidewalls and a slightly harder compound Eliminator, I would wholehartly recommend both for the rear.

I bought one after researching the Bizango although I could find any reviews on the carbon. I got a scrap bike from the tip and used that to get a 20% off trade in at Halfords so it only cost me £800.

A few things to note having checked against the spec and changed the tyres:

The frames are not the size they state on the website. For instance I got a medium and it is not 18″ but 17″.
The front wheel is not quick release as stated
The Brakes are 180mm front and 160mm rear (not 180 rear as stated)
The rear tyre is the race version.

I changed the tyres to Minions and found that a 2.3″ is the biggest you will get on the rear. You could go larger on the front but the rim width probably isn’t suitable. They do have Tubeless rims and I went to go tubeless but didn’t have any rim tape and the original isn’t suitable.

The bike feels great to ride but I am no expert in bike reviews. I have the front forks at 90psi which according to the side is too soft for me at 90kg but I am only using 3/4 of the travel. Perhaps the sag is too much and the compression damping is too hard but I haven’t looked into it much and only ridden it for a few hours so still getting used to the feel.

I have some photos I can try and share but I am offshore so difficult to get onto photo sharing sites with the firewalls in place.

Great deal for 800,-. Thanks for letting us know the tyre clearance. Would be a pity they reduced tyre clearance by going to 425mm chainstays in stead of 435.

If you do manage to get some photo’s out, please include some of the space between the tyre and the frame.

Voodoo Bizango Carbon looks to be a great £1,000 hardtail

I plan on buying one, although like said, unfortunately no higher end version or frame only option.

Tire clearance still unclear, but looks to be unclear. If anyone has one please let us know and also your thoughts on sizing.

Short, but not extremely short. I suspect clearance will be the same as on the Transition, so that would mean 2.4 max, but that’s just an educated guess.

Did they mention better full-bike options?

No, but I didn’t ask either. Maybe there will be a Bokor carbon, I don’t know.

My current plan is to buy the bike and replace most parts one by one.

If anyone buys one, please let us know how much tire clearance it has.

And perhaps also what size you bought, how tall you are and how it feels.

BTW, this is the geometry table on the Bizango Carbon (it’s not on their site), they said there were no plans for a frame only option:

Size S(15in) M(16.5in) L(18in) XL(18in)
ST (Seat tube) 390mm 420mm 450mm 450mm
TT (Top tube) 595mm 620mm 645mm 670mm
HT (Head tube) 100mm 100mm 110mm 120mm
SA (Seat angle) 73 73 73 73
HA (Head angle) 67 67 67 67
Suspenion Travel 120mm 120mm 120mm 120mm
BBd (Bottom bracket drop) 55mm 55mm 55mm 55mm
Rake (Fork offset) 51mm 51mm 51mm 51mm
RC (Chainstays) 425mm 425mm 425mm 425mm
Stem 50mm 50mm 50mm 50mm
Handlebars Width/Rise 740/20mm 740/20mm 740/20mm 740/20mm
Seatpost length 400mm 400mm 400mm 400mm
Crank length 175mm 175mm 175mm 175mm
Stack 614mm 614mm 624mm 633mm
Reach 407mm 432mm 454mm 477mm

I didn’t realise there was a carbon Bizango till I read this. Looks decent for 1k too!

I wonder if they will release a higher end Bokor Carbon as well or better still, a frame only option. If anyone buys one, please let us know how much tire clearance it has.

Probably won’t fit a RS 35 gold will it?

Always good to talk about frames :-). Nice to see that you’ve tried lots and obviously think about what is going on.

Obviously frames are a personal thing. Originally my short rear 29ers were for singlespeed in steep places (eg south Lakes) so lots of standing climbing. This was in early days of 29 and I wanted something different to the then norm of long rear and steep front.

Gradually they’ve all been run 1×10/11 and never failed to get up anything “rideable” in UK, Pyrenees, Alps, Czech etc (mostly sat down I guess). Now usually geared as the kids are fast xc racers and I simply can’t keep up on ss anymore 🙂

Bb heights are probably medium. Seat angles unfashionable slack – around 72 deg effective (curved tube so vertical at the bb and 66-67 deg after the bend). Pedal position normal spd axle across ball of foot. Height 5’10”.

If buying something then would probably be Transition, Ibis or Chameleon.

Each frame iteration has gone longer and slacker at the front but kept rear short. Cocked up the latest one so rear clearance is tight – only 2.2″ at 410mm.

Cool. Maybe I will revise my opinion on the desired length of the chainstays after some other bikes as well, but for now I remain cautious.

I always find it interesting that reviewers talk about chainstay length or reach but never seem to consider foot position on the pedals. The difference between a “XC” under the ball of your feet or position towards the middle on flat pedals easily means cm’s difference. With the equal body position your saddle should move with your feet increasing the needed reach and reducing the required chainstay length. But your right, let’s not derail the thread too much. 🙂

The Ibis DV9 is plenty “compliant”. So much more than the Pace RC529, Voodoo Hoodoo, Commencal Meta, Inbred, Cube Reaction etc.

It’s the smoothest hardtail I’ve ridden, and that’s with 2.25 tyres fitted. Going to try it with some bigger Schwalbe rubber soon.

I can’t edit the list. so will update it in a while if I have more info. A pity the Bizango carbon is not (yet) available frame only.

Ooh, I’d forgotten it but if you can get it over here there’s a diamondback carbon ht that might fit the bill.

On their site I only see a carbon 27.5 plus hardtail and a 100mm XC one?

Cs645 – some nice bikes there, but why get so obsessive over 5mm differences in chainstay length?

I’ve been riding home made 29er frames with chainstays between 395 and 410mm and never had issues with front wheel lift climbing steep stuff.

For me between 425-440mm is okay. More is unnecessary on hardtail and less I indeed get a bit anxious about climbing and tire clearance. A 2.5 tire with sub 420mm chainstays normally won’t work.

I’ve had a Genesis core with 420mm rear, my wife had a C456 at 150mm (I’ll admit both had highish BB’s compromising their climbing). Both bike were not that nice to do long seated climbs on. You had to lean so far forward your back started to hurt and maintaining front wheel pressure was quite challenge.

Super nice you have some home made frames, which I had the skills to do built my own.

If you say you never had problems with climbing with 395-410mm chainstays I wonder about a few things:

– Do you climb really steep stuff sitting or standing?
– How tall are you?
– How far forward or rearward is your foot placed on the pedals?
– What’s the BB height, effective seat tube angle on those bikes?

Updated the list with pics and apparently the carbon Bizango at 67, is one degree slacker than the aluminium, so altered that as well. That one just moved a bit higher on my list.

Transition Vanquish
https://www.transitionbikes.com/bikes_vanquish.cfm

Close to perfect, chainstay with 420mm on the shortside for allround use, but close enough.
67.5° 120mm unsagged. Will take an angleset to slacken it.
Up to 2.4 tire clearance

Production has ended.

Kona Honza CR
https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_cr_frame.cfm

Too short chainstays at 415mm, makes the front wheel go light on steep climbs and reduces tire clearance too much.
68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.
Tire clearance: 2.25?

Santa Cruz Chameleon

Drop out system compromises price to weight ratio, but nice for those who want it.
67.3° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.
Tire clearance: depends on rear axle position

Ibis DV9
https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/dv9

Head angle a bit steep for rough trails, but will take an angleset so that could be fixed with that and an 130mm fork. Nice lightweight frame as well at 1.200kg.
Seat tube length a bit long compared to the reach number (limiting droppers a bit).
Not the most compliant frame.
Up to 2.6 tire clearance

Saracen Zenith Carbon
https://www.saracen.co.uk/bike/zenith-carbon

68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Tire clearance?

Voodoo Bizango Carbon
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/mountain-bikes/voodoo-bizango-carbon-mountain-bike-s-m-l-xl

67° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work. No frame only option yet.

Tire clearance?

Canfield EPO:
http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/epo-carbon-hardtail-29er

Too short chainstays at 414mm, makes the front wheel go light on steep climbs and reduces tire clearance too much.
67.9° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Tire clearance: ~2.35

For me the DV9 or Vanquish would be an option with an angleset. The Bizango could’ve been slacker but would be good enough for me with a 130mm fork.

That looks stunning!

Wouldn’t be able to ride with a saddle pitched like that though…. :p

I suspect it’s more that magazines don’t see them as the sort of frame/bike that will appeal to enough of their readers?

Might be a chicken or egg thing?

I’ve got a 140mm airshaft for the pikes in the house. I’ll fit it along with and try a -2 slackset on my Vanquish in the near future. For my riding I’m pretty happy with how it is at the moment, but it’s fun to mix things up a bit.

If it would end up being the Vanquish it would probably end up with a 130mm fork and a 1.5 angleset. That would be slack enough for me.

I loved my carbon 456 for exactly the reason that it was light enough to ride fast all day but capable enough to stick big tyres on and take for an uplift, but I think the reason there aren’t more bikes like this is that most people looking for a trail bike would add rear suspension above a certain travel, while people looking for a winch and plummet hardtail aren’t concerned about weight that much. It’s a shame as I think it’s missing a trick, but that’s been well covered already.

My wife had a C456 and loved it. My friend now has it and he’s still loving it.

I’m a bit puzzled by it all to be honest. Very few reviews on the above bikes. It almost seems if companies don’t want to make the effort to get these bikes into peoples minds. It takes a bit of imagination/experience to “get” this type of bike. Reviews do help in that regard. Perhaps they are afraid people will start to take it into too extreme terrain and break it, leading to warranty claims. Perhaps that’s why they keep it with within 120mm forks and moderate head angles to discourage people from taking it too far and getting bad publicity and a lot of warranty hassle?

Yet a bike like this has so many uses:
-XC bike
-Endurance bike
-Winter bike (next to you fully)
-Local bike (if your fully dulls your local trails too much)
-Perfect bike for people who like to climb themselves in the mountains
-All-round trail ripper which will do the miles as well.

Transition Vanquish
Close to perfect, chainstay with 420mm on the shortside for allround use, but close enough.
67.5° 120mm unsagged. Will take an angleset to slacken it.

Kona Honza CR
https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_cr_frame.cfm
Too short chainstays at 415mm, makes the front wheel go light on steep climbs and reduces tire clearance too much.
68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Santa Cruz Chameleon
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/chameleon
Drop out system compromises price to weight ratio, but nice for those who want it.
67.3° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Ibis DV9
https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/dv9
Head angle a bit steep for rough trails, but will take an angleset so that could be fixed with that and an 130mm fork. Nice lightweight frame as well at 1.200kg.
Seat tube length a bit long compared to the reach number (limiting droppers a bit).

Saracen Zenith Carbon
https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/dv9
68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Voodoo Bizango Carbon
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/mountain-bikes/voodoo-bizango-carbon-mountain-bike-s-m-l-xl
68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work. No frame only option yet.

Canfield EPO:
http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/epo-carbon-hardtail-29er
Too short chainstays at 414mm, makes the front wheel go light on steep climbs and reduces tire clearance too much.
67.9° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

For me the DV9 or Vanquish would be an option with an angleset.

The lack of a wider range of carbon trail hardtail 29ers is a bit of a mystery to me. Such bikes make so much sense, with XC courses getting ever more technical and everyone must have gotten the message by now about longer slacker. Put some fast rolling 2.4 or 2.5 rear tyre on and you’ve got such a versatile bike.

Here’s my list:

– Light (duh carbon, but I don’t need sliding dropouts, so Chameleon is heavy)
– Decent reach.
– 65-66 unsagged headangle at 130mm or at least no integrated headset so it will take an angleset to get there. (Saracen Zenith can’t take an angleset).
– 425-435mm chainstays. 414mm chainstays are great for manualling all day but not for creeping up very steep climbs. (So no Honzo CR, Vanquish is close enough)
– Clearance for at least 2.4 tyres. 2.5 or even 2.6 is a bonus.
– Compliant as possible rear end.

I would love a Carbon Scandal or Sonder Signal, for now the Vanquish is closest, but quite expensive.

I appreciate drawbacks of having to commit to a 1000 minimum carbon mold. That said from a (very personal) user perspective, at 60kg, even a well built 1.2kg carbon frame would be strong enough for her to jump it all day (I know, not for the big boys). So an alu or Ti frame (how nice I personally find it) built to last is already 800gr heavier than she needs. A carbon frame (over built for her weight) is as close as it gets for her (the 456C was strong as a tank). On the parts level you can only sensibly save so much. Alternatively we could try a strongish XC frame with a 130mm fork and a 2 degree angleset, but reach, BB height and seat angle numbers won’t be that great then (although sag and the angleset compensate a bit).

For now it’s between a Transition Vanquish or a Scandal with the money saved spent on lighter parts. With a carbon Scandal, the choice would be easy… 😛

I wanted to say I’d love a carbon version of this new Scandal. Geometry is perfect.

My wive had a 456 carbon for many years and had to sell it to a friend who is now still very happy with it and changed his whole perspective on mountainbiking.

People didn’t understand the logic behind it, they were still boxed into hardtail has to be “XC” geometry mindset. They didn’t seem to be able to get their head around the fact that a 2 degree slacker head angled doesn’t magically increase the rolling resistance or that you climb with the rear of the bike (like Brant pointed out), not with the front. These bikes are so extremely versatile and fast on so many types of terrain.

Now more bike companies seem to understand and slowly more bikers previously buying “standard” geometry seem to be warming up to slack hardtails.

Anyways, my wife dearly misses her 456 carbon, she loves riding in the most horrible conditions and just loved the playfulness and easy of maintenance of her 456. If I could replace it with a carbon scandal that would be awesome. Yes, I know it’s only 500gr…

Cheers.