the-muffin-man – I’m sorry but that may the case for you but Nukeproof was a brand held in fairly high regard and did it not win a ‘most desirable’ award?

’cachet’ – sure they aren’t a titanium single speed made in Gary Fishers garage but a mile away from what sports direct did to Karrimor.

 

I agree with Neil here, I also didn’t expect a buyer to come forward for the group as a going concern.

Unless Nukeproof is sold separately and quickly to a third party it’s also gone along with the other in-house brands, MA doesn’t do bicycle engineering and design.

All likelihood is the brands either die or become budget offerings like muddy fox etc.

It’s all a huge shame, some good people and lots of work down the drain.

@Ribena – I am almost certain you won’t ever see another high end nukeproof bike for sale unless they sell the brand externally.

@thisisnotaspoon – Very emotive, unfortunately though probably true – And yes, we are all the baddies, and the bike scene is full of hypocritical bullshit, this discussion a huge example of people splitting hairs.

And I also agree – either remove the BIK ‘loophole’ for all commercial, vans included or none, but lets also remove the loophole for luxury EV’s while we are at it too?

@ratherbeintobago – you do drive a van, dont you?

@ratherbeintobago – The BIK for EV’s will only be 3% still in 2025-2026 and was zero up until a year or so ago, so your company car owner / director could happily employ the ‘loophole’ to obtain a luxury 2T EV SUV and drive it paying zero BIK (so less than the fixed commercial BIK paid on a pickup truck)

Do you really think a 2T luxury SUV that utterly guzzles electricity and used a phenomenal amount of resources in its production will really gave a considerably less CO2/mile than a ‘normal’ petrol car? I doubt it.

I am sure the BIK for EV’s will rise, but as its only company car owners that are using them in reality it’s not coming soon.

So again ill ask – how will you feel when pickups become electric? and how do you feel about the commercial vans all of us bikers drive around in daily, or are you one of the van drivers?

@ratherbeintobago – Ah so a ‘tax loophole’ is acceptable if it fits your personal criteria then, got it.

The road tax is absolutely huge on a vehicle like the Ranger btw, and it remains to be seen what the overall vehicle C02/mile will actually be with all things considered, less than a Tesla 3, probably – less than a 2.5T electric Mercedes SUV, you tell me?

How will you feel about electric pickup’s then and what about the Transporters?

And no, I am not a climate denying idiot – I have just received my first EV, solar install this year at home, I just smell hypocrisy here.

Ah come on, many vans have entirely flat fronts, our works Trafic is like a slab.

@thisisnotaspoon – They are paying tax, its just a fixed rate because its a commercial vehicle. This isn’t the same as using a company credit card to buy yourself something, the company pays for the vehicle, the driver doesn’t own it they just get use of it.

It would be interesting to know how many on here and in the ‘EV’ thread are using them as company cars and paying almost zero BIK – do you feel the same way about electric vehicles, how about Transporters or similar? Surely you must?

@ratherbeintobago – Surely the front of the average van is as high and ‘aggressive’ as a pickup is it not? – https://www.nationwide-cars.co.uk/media/range/New-Transit-Custom-2023.jpg

And while I agree most vans are bought for work purposes there are many more on the road than pickups and there is an absolutely huge number of vans being used for daily travel and ‘extreme dad’ activities, I would imagine far more vans on the road are being used for this purpose but they don’t get the heat as they are a big part of the mtb / outdoor scene.

Go to any trail carpark and its absolutely full of vans, not pickups – Stop one then surely stop the other, nobody should be able to have a BIK reduced van either?

@sl2000 – Yes, I am well aware of the reduction in BIK that you class as a ‘loophole’ – I just don’t agree that its a matter that needs fixing in any way, as I say they will all be electric in a few years time and they are actually on average narrower than a modern SUV which as I mentioned before is on the drive of every middle class young family.

ratherbeintobago – Do you share the same opinion about all of the pimped out ‘day vans’, Transporters etc too? – They will be a similar weight and size and only marginally better on fuel as they run similar 2.0 diesel engines in current models.

I agree the size of them is ridiculous as is the weight but lets be realistic, the gap between a modern pickup and the modern SUV that is on the drive of the majority of young families in terms of emissions will be minimal.

If we really want to be ‘fair’ and offer the best environment for other road users & pedestrians then cars should be limited in terms of size and weight and lets take on your suggestion that Vans and pickups should be reserved for work use only and entirely, but I am really not sure how that makes them less dangerous, they are still there, would it just be the slightly fewer number?

Taking into account purely the savings in tax – those that feel this is a problem that needs to be solved seem to have this opinion purely because they can’t / don’t want to access the ‘benefit’ themselves – I can’t / don’t so why should they.

I couldn’t care less if someone drives a pickup or van to save personal BIK, the vehicle still gets bought and put into the market, so lots of jobs for people involved in the process and tax to pay on the sale and if not electric cars currently have almost the same BIK avoidance, so I really don’t see the issue.

As above too, they may be big / flashy but they are shite to drive.

SL2000 – why does anything need to be done about it, why is it a problem?

Plenty will be driving around in fully loaded VW Transporters with a row of seats, the closest they get to commercial use is carrying bikes to the carpark at the weekend, shall we do something about this too?

I don’t get the advantages of such tax savings myself but don’t really care that others do, the environmental or similar issue is a completely different discussion entirely.

I don’t even see how this would have increased HMRC take overall as it would lead to a huge reduction in pickup sales and ultimately less / none being used in this manner, so either way no additional tax.

Not sure I agree with that – The folded sheet construction is Orange’s USP – before they sold it was their USP too – the rumours of carbon frames seemed to be nothing but rumours.

Recently they have added the linkage frames which seemed to go down quite well, they certainly reviewed well, so ‘innovation’ isn’t entirely non existent and their geometry is spot on.

Personally I think price is the absolute barrier here, not the design which personally I am a fan off (other than the ugly hanging ‘gut’ one one of the new models)

Refine choice, drop the price and I believe they will sell.

The Orange bikes Bikebiz article is from 2015.

More and more of this going on right now – If there is money owed and its ‘written off’ then somebody is out of pocket, be it the bank or a supplier it knocks on somewhere, somehow.

A local shop did the same, called administrators, some stock returned to suppliers, fixtures and fittings sold at discount to owners wife and shop re-launched under the guise of ‘refurbishment’ a month later with a range of different bike brands – hundreds of thousands of pounds owed to various suppliers, HMRC etc etc – poof! all gone.

Interesting lately a small UK frame builders company went into liquidation – debts appearing to be owed being a bounceback loan with nothing repaid and another company in the directors name that they now trade under, bye bye £50k debt – but who picks this up, the tax payer?

If there is something that needs fixing about how LTD companies are able to operate its the ability to seemingly be able to absolve themselves of debt, be a little creative with things and declare a ‘new dawn’ with what appears to be almost zero downsides.

If they have such a large amount of bikes in-stock its no wonder their cash-flow is hammered, must be an absolutely huge amount of cash stuck in those bikes in motors, forks, drivetrain etc.

Covid supply chain issues removed the strength of a company like Orange in that they should be quite lean with minimal fully built bikes in stock as they can make frames essentially on-demand, it looks like Cotic also got bitten by this one.

If Orange go back to being more Orange of old, (More simple range, less stock carried) they surely have a future.

Unite stuff is made in the UK, the have a number of machines and shown pictures making the stuff.

Aside from the cerakote nonsense that would put me off their gear now it’s super shitty that the Chinese have made carbon copies and sell the stuff for pennies – it’s also a bit shitty people are buying counterfeit parts and helping to kill unite off.

There are reasons they are offering 50% off this weekend, this is one of them.

Companies that took ‘outside’ cash during the covid upturn are the ones seemingly in the most trouble, those and obviously the ones that expanded to meet demand that didn’t continue.

I can see a few of the small component manufacturers fitting into that by how things look.

Its also obvious Cotic are in damage limitation mode, selling of groupsets etc at bargain prices – hopefully they get back on track, Cotic are one of the good guys for sure.

I like Stanton bikes and glad they have survived but did find it a bit odd how the ‘internet’ seemed to label the investor who had ploughed almost a million quid into the business evil because he wanted to see some return, a million bloody quid – gone.

Not being able to drive until you are 25 is hilariously ridiculous.

There’s plenty of 23-24yr olds with mortgages, relationships and gasp even children of their own to look after and those that haven’t aren’t in the majority lunatics behind the wheel and they probably have places to go in these cars, like their jobs.

Give it time and we will all be in semi autonomous cars with gps based speed limiters, until then accept the fact some people in lots of different demographics in lots of different types of cars drive like dicks and try to keep yourself as safe as possible out there.

Edit – black boxes can only be a good idea for fist few years of driving.

The amount of time this is taking is making me think much more that any buyer wont ‘save’ much of CRC/ Wiggle at all.

There can’t be much stock left now, there will still be some heavy debts – especially to companies in the far east that supply the in-house brands so what is really up for purchase other than a website, stock nobody really wants and debt, oh and Nukeproof of course but who would buy the whole thing to get the brand (Again with no stock)

Its looking a bit bleak if you ask me – At least the employees have some warning here, small consolation I know.

I would rather give my £20-30 extra to Neil or the other UK guys for a chainring than send any money to alibaba for one.

As I say, don’t comment on a thread that it’s a shame when another company goes under because you have saved a few quid buying alibaba stuff because ‘it’s not a complicated part’.

Just checked and Works have them in 28T too for £40, blackspire for sub £40 too, will be many others (making out there is some kind of drought was a little off the ball don’t we think?) – but yea if you are super tight / frugal / willing to wait then they are about £24.00 when a SS promo is on – for a ring that is Alibaba pricing.

Neil – I am amazed you can make a worthwhile profit on these at that price – From my brief experience at work with aluminium pricing I bet they cost you a tenner to make all in with anodising and stuff, couple of quid to post and a few quid to the VAT man – About a fiver profit left in it for you?

You might be a little out of date there then.

You can get shimano from alutech, garburak, unite, works, burgtec and others.

A quick google shows burgtec have them in 28t and probably many others too, sure the Burgtec isn’t £35 but you can get them for about £45.00.

A bit OT but does anyone buy Thompson stems anymore or care about their products that haven’t been updated for what seems like 20 years, are they really still the benchmark, I don’t see them on any bikes anymore, especially those under 40 yrs old.

As for SS making ‘Thompson’ level stems or Shimano rings – like there are a shortage of either for acceptable prices now from non Alibaba sources? – The market is absolutely teeming with parts and manufacturers now vs when SS started. SS may be very slightly cheaper in some places but is it a big enough margin to really matter to anyone?

E.g. – SS rings are £35 – everyone elses are £40-£50.00 – does £5.00 really matter, especially as again the competition do seem like a ‘nicer’ product.

This is one of the reasons hopefully Nukeproof survive – most of their parts are nice enough / have modern design and are pretty much ‘SS’ prices too, expecially as they are almost always on sale.

I wouldn’t buy anything from Alibaba really, zero resale value, zero chance of warranty, support or ability to return and absolutely no help for the bike industry we all claim to want to support.

It was just an example but of course you can, thank you for the bizarre outburst though captain

Inflation has been rampant for the past few years and I have a few things I could sell for a ‘profit’ if I wanted to.

Better example for you – what if you bought a rolex 10 years ago and sold it today for a £5k ‘profit’?

Just to clarify – Is the suggestion from some here that you would need to file a tax return if say you move house and have a clear-out and satisfy the £1k and ‘making a profit’ rule and if so you are OK with that idea?

What if you purchased items years ago and due to inflation and luck the items are worth more, you should have to pay tax because it is considered ‘profit’? E.g. I sell a dining table and chairs for £300 more than I paid for them 30 years ago, do you think tax should be paid on that?

Apologies if this has been covered but surely the intention needs to be there in order for it to be profit and not just the sale of your old stuff?

Honestly though – the vast, vast majority, myself included will continue to sell their old stuff online at whatever value without any care or regard for this new rule or the potential for a non-existent HMRC army to come knocking and ask for the receipts for the olive tree you made a £100 profit on that you bought in 2006, no most people will not be keeping any records and no they wont file a tax return or even consider the idea.

Catch the traders, sure – but create a society where its too much effort / risk to sell your old junk and everyone will just send it to landfill, how fantastic.

Wore lots of Vans until I found out how comfortable a set of Nike retro-ish looking trainers were in comparison.

Been Nikes every since for me, retro looking ones only though, the extra sole height is welcome too, haha.

Have to admit to having both a log burner and pizza oven though so take my opinion as you see fit.

From what I gather (from a video on Youtube somewhere – think it was Pinned) Unite are essentially using Cerakote as a method to reduce inventory to a fraction of what it would need to be when outsourcing anodising of parts.

So potentially thousands of parts down to literally tens if they are cerakoting parts to order.

The ‘no returns’ looks like an extension of this model – e.g. they don’t want the stuff back because they don’t want to stock anything, it could be months until they sell that colour / part combo again as there is so much choice.

I think the calling a single-colour item ‘custom’ is stretching reality a little and probably not technically allowed – custom splash etc, sure but this isn’t that.

Its telling that there seems to be quite a bit of Unite stuff for sale on Ebay / Facebook unfitted / unused, probably because people weren’t a fan of the finish and were refused a refund.

Ill echo what many other people have said – moving to cerakote seems like an absolute disaster when their parts before were really rather nice when anodised – it looks horrible (imo) and seems like it chips off on items like pedals, I cant imagine the saving in inventory has outweighed the obvious drop in sales they must have experienced here, there’s a reason hardly anyone else uses it.

Considering he is so ‘out of’ the bike industry its interesting to see social media posts showing him making chainrings and stating shimano etc will be coming soon, followed by selling them off at a sub £25.00 price tag, as I say earlier this is also at odds when Neil claims to not want to be part of a race to the bottom, well if that’s not being a contributor I don’t know what is.

I have zero issues with SS as a company, honestly I see the events of 10 years or so ago as the mistakes of a young person starting out in business and getting things wrong – Neil you seem to be the kind of guy that gets a bit excited and doesn’t think things through before posting online and thus sometimes rubbing people up the wrong way / making little sense.

Its drawn this thread well off topic now anyway so a back on topic question – Has CRC, Wiggle & Hotlines gone into administration or is it just Wiggle at the moment as Pinkbike suggest?

This is again de-railing the thread a little but nowhere did I say you were posting as SS to increase sales (Though no other business owner is here commenting in this manner, so it may be having that effect?)

You can post as Neil as much as you like without mentioning SS – you are an individual aside from company owner – so long as you aren’t doing so to deliberately plug your own product while criticising others, which you arent this time, all adding ‘superstar’ to ever reply is doing is to cause people to comment on your business etc

There is a huge difference between business models but you say the industry is in a ‘race to the bottom’ and then knock 1/3rd of the price from a product (and others) you are currently manufacturing, not old stock to clear, how isn’t that joining the ‘race to the bottom’ and actually becoming a contributing factor in it?

The drive to discount in order to sell is absolutely going to cause some business to fail, perhaps the most bizarre thing is (If this is also relevant to the cycle world) that we have been told lead-times are increasing on production overseas for parts we use at work due to factories reducing staff numbers and hours, so once all this stock is sold off at bargain prices we may end up with brands struggling to re-stock in a reasonable time frame when required = more financial pressure.

Someone in my family lost their job in the Wiggle / CRC warehouse location in Wolverhampton – not a nice end to 2023 for him….

Neil / Superstar you really seem to be derailing this thread as people pick you up on some contradictions and strange musings (Why not comment as just Neil, repping Superstar is irrelevant surely?) and I cant help do it myself as you say you don’t want to join the ‘race to the bottom’ but then post up pictures of you re-making chainrings whole selling them off for 30% off for less than £25.00 – isn’t that joining in by definition?

The reality here is CRC etc wont be the last to fall due to current circumstances and I don’t think this is industry specific, a few friends are saying their work is deathly quiet right now, the covid money has ran out now and the warehouse shelves are full of goods.

Going to be a difficult 2024 overall I feel.

Quite fancy one as a cheap roadie / gravel thing for occasional use.

Question on sizing, at 5ft9 medium or large? I have short legs long torso. I am worried that the large seat-tube length and tall headtube could cause problems but prefer the length over the medium.

I tried the purgatory but its a bit lacking in the softer stuff, the butcher was slower but was better for me.

Tracey – You seem to have experience with both – would you go Butcher front and Eliminator rear for an all-round combo? Any reason for not putting the Eliminator front too?

What do people think as an all-round combo for UK stuff? I have used Butcher 2.6 front 2.3 rear combo and was pretty happy – no experience with the Eliminator though.

Needs to clear mud, work well on the shiny pebbles of cannock and off-piste stuff in the Shropshire trails like Hopton etc.

Should I try the Eliminator F&R or mix them up, Butcher front Eliminator rear?

To me the key justification for a second referendum and the point that nullifies the third / fourth etc argument is timing.

It has taken years from the referendum to this reach point where we are due to leave, in this time much has changed, we are more informed and people that were not old enough to vote then are now.

If we have a second referendum this fact of timing is almost completely removed, vote leave and we leave almost immediately, no argument for a third vote because yet more people will come of age as that wont be true. We have also gained about as much information as we realistically can though I agree lies and mis-information will exist it wont be to the same extent.

Nobody of sane mind could possibly argue that a second vote is undemocratic, it is purely the opinion of those that have ‘won’ that feel they may ‘lose’.

If we do have a second referendum and the vote is leave / the deal then thats that, by even the smallest margin and it is implemented almost immediately, argument over, if the vote is remain I admit this will cause some degree of unrest and unhappines from leave voters but I see no other way out of this mess other than a public forum and there just isnt time for that.

Sounds like you can be too much of a nice guy sometimes Mike.

You know enough about your work and business to know what your worth, all the best with it.

I mean absolutely no malice to you in any way.

I just thought it worth noting that your positive attitude towards them (one of the very few) may be due to you doing work for them? – I assumed as you had posted pictures of CNC parts from their crowdfund frame and that they publicly said you were making it that this was the case.

Pretty bad for all involved if those bikes can’t go ahead what with the huge time their designer Lee must have spent on them, yourself getting started with parts and the refunds that will have to be dealt out.

@mickmcd

In fairness your opinion is going to be biased as you are meant to me making one of the crowd fund bikes for them are you not? – you have a financial interest.

Wasn’t that frame meant to be ready for delivery soon (or already?) too, how are they coming along?

Edit – they were meant to be finished in January, so is that Sick or your fault Mike?

Anyway, if the email was sincere, the refunds or delivery dates sent / accepted by actual customers then all will be well with the world, their attitude is only a problem if you buy from them, which after this debacle would be tough to convince many to do so.

Reading that list – I am amazed at the amout of credit they were getting from some of the suppliers.

£61k at Jungle, Zyro at £50k, a handful of £25k+ and lots of others at £10k +, I didnt think Hope offered credit but they are on there too.

I imagine they were stretched well beyond the usual 30 days with a lot of suppliers, that or accounts just were not being strict with them – Not something we could get away with at my work, 3 days late on a 30 day payment and in comes a red email asking for payment or immediate communication, you certainly wouldnt be allowed to order anything else until the account is up to date.

You are right – Ubyk must have been on the ragged edge for a long time, literally using a list of companies to bank-roll their own, i would think it would have taken a long time for things to actually pay out, that or huge investement.

I am well aware that there are more standards than 9001 but what was being described was a general methodology to production which falls into the 9001 remit, not the specific testing of a product which is a different thing entirely – as you say ISO4201.

As I say, I am not trying to ‘hate’ and would be happy to see that Sick have used some form of testing to verify their products, I am just doubting it has been done as of yet as they are the kind of guys that would show the world this kind of thing – it would silence the critics and be a middle finger to ‘haters’ – they publicly document everything else after all.

Jamesco – I understand ISO, working with ISO 9001 accredited companies on a daily basis but it really wont make any difference to the construction of a bicycle frame in Peru which are 100% not ISO approved, will ?- Sick are also not ISO approved.

You are lumping lab / CEN testing of frames to European standards in with normal ISO 9001 quality management and I fail to see how ISO processes ensure a frame has tested geometry, rides well or is lab tested? – its almost completely irrelevant to all of these, all it does is ensure the company produces its goods to a certain standard of quality.

As I say, I would be very happy to be proved wrong, but I doubt a single frame has ever been near a laboratory for testing, they are exactly the kind of guys to let us all know if they had – It would have shut this thread down for a start.