I suspect the nationalists of having what I view as the bad motives, because if they were being pragmatic they’d have had three choices on the ballot paper in 2014.

Unless you can define what a ‘nationalist’ is, you should stop using it as a general term.
Talk about Scottish nationalists or British nationalists or whatever.
But to go on about ‘nationalists’ is meaningless and hypocritical because…you are one.

Really good that.

Here’s a question for you – is Scotland part of my country?

Which is your country?

As you’re definitely not a nationalist and don’t believe in borders or nations and would prefer a one world government – how can you have a country?

I’m not a **** British nationalist. I’d vote to abolish Britain and cede all territory to the Netherlands given the chance. I can’t stand the place any more. I can’t make it any clearer tha that can I?

If that were true then you would be a Dutch nationalist.

But I doubt it is. I also doubt that you’re genuine about believing in a one-world government.
You’re contributing to a discussion about the union and defending its borders and extolling its democracy.

You’re a British nationalist (of the non-flag waving type).

what I am trying to do is call out bullshit, of which there is plenty on this thread

Aye, including that of a British nationalist who goes on forums to rant on about ‘nats’.

But the point re both the UK and the EU is that they already exist, the work has been done, they are already integrated. And you’d have to increase division and borders for it to work. And I don’t like division.

If that’s your criteria for what a nationalist is then Nigel Farage isn’t one.
Neither is Boris Johnson or Jim Davidson or Winston Churchill or the BNP.
None of these are nationalists.

Supporting a one-world government is a fairly extreme position to take but it’s more reasonable than your claim not to be a nationalist.

I object to the division of the country of the UK based on ancient and largely irrelevant lines

You’re a British nationalist.

I wouldn’t describe any of my pro independence friends as “nationalist”

I would describe them as Scottish nationalists.
I would describe people who support Welsh independence as Welsh nationalists.
I would describe people who support the British state as British nationalists.

Some of these people will wave flags around. Some of them won’t.
But I would describe them all as nationalists.

The confusion comes because many British nationalists don’t perceive themselves as being nationalists.

The point is that nationalism is bullshit, always has been.

I think a lot of this comes down to language.

When people talk about not liking ‘nationalism’, I take it that they mean a particular form of nationalism – flag-waving, overly emotive, patriotic etc.

But that’s just one form of nationalism, often linked to blood and soil type movements.
And it doesn’t capture the kind of civic nationalism promoted by the likes of SNP and Plaid.

Being against nationalism, to me, means being against the concept of nations. If you accept the existence of nations then you’re a nationalist of some description.

If you do oppose the concept of nations then it takes you down some weird paths.

Apart from sticking two fingers up to the English I struggle to see anyong term benefits for Welsh or Scottish independence

It’s really not about that. Whether you agree with it or not, the main driver of civic nationalism is the possibility that it could improve people’s lives.

That means different things to different people but for me it would mean a fairer form of society that better serves the needs of people living in Wales.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say he’ll be labour’s next PM sometime towards the end of the decade.

Wahey, a new brand of Starmer.
Quite exciting.

Who is better off in the states of the former Yugoslavia now?

Generally few countries who gain independence from a bigger state ever want to reverse that decision. Do you know of any examples?

How does that play out in wales, a country that voted out in HUGE numbers currently looks like its going to be Labour again.

Welsh Labour has mastered the art of managerial politics.
Their manifestos promise nothing much and they have few ambitions other than to keep things ticking along. This allows them to remain amorphous – representing different things to different people.

They retain support from traditional right-wing Brexit types as well as younger Corbyn inspired socialists.

Their brand is strong and binds them to families and communities who see themselves as belonging to the party. The leaders, like Drakeford, are avuncular, unambitious and try to avoid confrontations with Westminster. And they’re generally well-liked.

They feel safe and familiar.

This is perhaps the most depressing thread on STW.

It certainly is.
It’s like some horribly bleak Blue Jam sketch that just plays in an endless loop.

I can’t stop crying.
He was the people’s aristocrat.

Blaming Corbyn is precisely what the right wants; keep the proles arguing amongst themselves, and distracted from what’s really going on. It’s time to change that stuck record, and look at what is actually progressive, and concentrate on that.

I think what the right wants is for people to keep playing the game ie Westminster, FPTP with Labour people spending their lives chuntering on about strategy/leaders.

Because thanks to freemarket capitalism and the media, the game is rigged in favour of the right. Or whichever party is happy to hold power while agreeing to do nothing of significance with it.

The inspiration should be the first political movement to represent the average person – the Chartists. They promoted a series of simple ways to improve people’s lives – that had the power to turn society on its head. A democratic revolution.

It invigorated and inspired people.
It was smart, reasonable and rational.
It was gobby and provocative and fun.

The head of a Tory think-tank thinks the main problem with Labour’s leader is that he’s not Tory enough.
Brilliant analysis.

Most everything I’ve ever read by her is a personal take on stuff that’s already in the public domain.

I don’t think the problem is specifically her, more the way that the media works.
The people who comment on politics are generally from a similar background and live similar lives.
Not that this devalues their opinions but their views are filtered through the same kind of lens.
They will disagree. Hold a range of opinions. Some you will like and others you won’t.
But the general tone is the same – a jovial, waspish ribbing, a focus on personalities and parties.
Rarely ever delving into deeper stuff – like the role of the media.

Here’s a good overview of why I don’t like the Marina Hyde brand of journalism:
The strange death of British satire

Oh she’s so funny.
Well done Marina.
She’s certainly brought that BoJo down a peg or two.
My only criticism is that it’s so hard to read when one is guffawing so much.
Sir Alastair Edgcumbe James Dudley-Williams must be so proud.

Which would fall at the first hurdle that is the English electorate.

I’m not so sure.
It’s a pretty powerful idea that taps into things that most people can relate to.
Wanting more from life than a crap job.
Providing some relief from feelings of fear, anxiety and stress that stifle lives.

Yabbering on about Labour is waste of time unless you’re centre-right.
Corbyn or Starmer – it doesn’t matter.
Neither of them would or will make any radical changes to UK society.

The solution?
A left party that has UBI as its ‘Brexit’.
A radical change with the power to improve the quality of people’s lives.
It should take the UKIP approach of not being bothered about Westminster or elections.
It should be indy friendly – to offer an alternative to SNP/Plaid/Labour.
Thank you.

The YC ‘independence in your pocket’ is no better than the Brexit Leave campaign. It offers everything, to everybody.

I think that’s a fair criticism.

But the whole argument about economics is largely a matter of belief – on both sides.
If you don’t like the idea – most things will be worse.
If you do like the idea – most things will be better.

But whether you like it or not, the idea of Welsh independence is perfectly reasonable.
Wales is a country of 3.1 million people with all the basic bits and bobs you need for some kind of independence.

It could function in a similar style to any small country.

The main thing it lacks is a sense of self-confidence.

Politics is a game played by people who want power. If you’re not one of them it makes little sense to play to their rules or invest much energy in it.

I agree with this. And I think it might be why I find this thread so addictively depressing.

It’s the utter lack of hope or belief in anything. That ordinary people can achieve nothing.

That anyone who believes or hopes in any kind of significant change is a naive idiot.

That we should accept all this and treat politics like football – support the red one or the blue one.

Bikes look horrible.
It’s more like parkour.

The royals represent a belief in the established order of things.
That some are born into positions of wealth and power. And others are not.
That we shouldn’t try to change things. It’s just the way it is.
And that we should respect and celebrate those who are born into wealth and power.
It’s a central tenet of British nationalism and one that I abhor.

The problem with bicycles was that they were relatively cheap, simple to maintain and lasted a long time. Parts were interchangeable and could be bought from a variety of sources.

Freemarket capitalism has solved these problems with the ebike.

The idea of left v right in mainstream UK politics is an illusion.
It’s right v right. You’re voting on which colour/brand.
The moral superiority that Labour Party voters feel needs to be stripped away.
You’re no better than any Tory/UKIP/Brexit Party supporter.
You believe exactly the same basic things.
And at least they’re honest about what they support.

A terrible hack who appeals to centrists.
Daughter of a peer, married to a peer.
From private education to Oxford University to a job at the Sun.

Never had to worry about paying rent or bills.
Utterly comfortable in a world of Westminster and celebrity.
Completely London centric.

Writes the most puerile fluff that makes humourless people guffaw.

The Labour Party is the problem, not the solution.
It doesn’t matter who’s in charge of it.
The two-party, first past the post system is designed to deliver stability not change.

The most impactful political force within the UK over the past 20 years is one that only ever had one MP.

I almost always agree with what Orwell has to say on something, and he’s very clear that without Patriotism you cannot defeat Nationalism

Either that piece has aged badly or George Orwell isn’t that clever. From today’s perspective, his views on nationalism are absurd, incoherent and untrue.

He seems to regard nationalism as being any belief in a group or idea. If you flip around his use of patriotism and nationalism it makes more sense in a modern context but it’s still rubbish.

What I’m trying to get at is the Britain realised it was doing something that wrong, stopped doing it and then tried to stop other countries from doing it

It could be argued the most decisive factor wasn’t a moral one but economic.
People had been opposing slavery for decades on moral grounds and were largely ignored.
Things started to turn when economists like Adam Smith began to suggest it was inefficient.
Added to that, you have events like the Zong massacre and a change to insurance laws.

… isn’t a country, it’s a principality. Which is why there’s no dragons or green on the Union Flag, it’s represented as “England and Wales” by the presence of the SGC. No doubt much to the chagrin of the Welsh who really got the brown end of the stick with that one.

You can debate what Wales is but it’s not a principality.
It’s not ruled by a prince. The Prince of Wales title is ceremonial and meaningless.

Wales is also not represented as ‘England and Wales’ on the flag, it’s represented as England.
The territories that we now call Wales were conquered and declared part of the Kingdom of England.

Name me a country that doesn’t have a chequered past.

Wales.
Mainly because it has never had the powers needed to do bad stuff.

The Union Jack is indelibly linked to the British Empire.
The British Empire, like most empires, was based on supremacism – the belief that English/British/Saxons were superior to other peoples.
That’s what was used to justify slavery, invasions, the plundering of resources etc.
Over the years that basic belief has become more nuanced but it has never gone away.

It was a belief held by one of the most revered figures in British nationalism – Winston Churchill.
It’s what drove much of the Brexit campaign – we’re better than them.
Even the bright, shiny Britpop stuff of Tony Blair was based on the basic idea that Britain is the greatest, most creative etc.
There’s fundamental toxicity to British nationalism and that’s represented by a flag.

Remember, not all folk who wish for Scots independence are nationalists, there are many reasons that people wish to be separated from rUK.

I think patriotism is a better word to use if you’re talking about people being proud of a country. Civic nationalism is nationalism.

These attitudes tend to come from people who claim not to be nationalists.
But when you dig down, they are. It’s just that they’re British nationalists.
Unless you actively support the abolition of all nation-states – you are a nationalist of some description.

Think it’s a really badly designed game.
Maybe it’s not so bad if you’ve followed the various iterations over the years.
But having loved some of the old versions, found this to be a highly polished mess.
Cluttered and confusing with a bad UI and just too many bits and bobs having been added to make it tiresome to play.

NOBODY WILL VOTE FOR THAT! NOBODY!!

Well said indeed sir.

I am Labour to the core but like most decent working people I despise lefty do-gooder types and anyone who spouts socialist six form claptrap. Anyone with a half brain cell realises that Lady Thatcher and Sir Winston were the greatest leaders we ever had.

What we need is our own Farage. A smasher, a warrior. Somebody to defend our great nation from the lefties, from hordes of immigrants and Asian rape gangs. Somebody who loves our monarchy, who supports our brave boys and defends white culture.

That champion is Sir Kee Kee Starmer KCB!!!

Lets get our country back!!!

People love narcissistic sociopaths.
The more obnoxious and nasty they are, the more they’re loved.
Entertainment and politics are two areas where these people thrive.