I have logged my commuting times for the past 2 and a bit years..

I don't log my other rides, I simply treat the commute as a baseline indicator of my general fitness and endurance, it's useful as it's a set distance on the same bike on the same roads, so other than traffic lights and weather the variables are minimal…

Right this one has bugged me for 24 Hrs now and I think I have close to the best way to test the OP’s question in the real world:

First you need to find our two hypothetical, similarly performing, similarly built, ~10Lb different riders, before any test could be performed I think you need to try and “harmonise” their fitness as much as possible/reasonable, force the two poor buggers to live under the same conditions for lets say 48hrs, eat and drink the same, exercise the same, rest the same, basically maintain their weight difference (48hrs shouldn’t be long enough for a significant change), take on the same nutrition/hydration, and match each other on training and rest.

Next the bike, all this talk of different bike configurations is beside the point, we are trying to quantify the effect of body mass and bike mass, so the test bike has to be a fully rigid single speed machine, the bike plus each rider will be weighed. The difference in weight will be added to the bike by strapping weights (probably in some sort of bag) to the frame when the lighter rider is using it, preferably within the front triangle and as close to the BB as possible, this means that wheel's rotational mass is the same for both, suspension effects are as minimal as humanly possible and COG is affected as little as possible.

Both riders will be equipped as identically as possible, i.e. same helmet, clothing, hydration pack or water bottles, shorts, jersey, shoes, hair gel, socks, everything… Remember we are trying to minimise variables.

A Short XC course will be laid out, one which gives approximately the same distance of climbing and descending, the riders will alternately do a lap each, between each lap the bike will be wiped clean of as much Mud as possible, each rider will be given the exact same amount of water and food for each lap/rest period, and the weight pack added/removed from the frame depending on which riders lap is next, this will be done for say 5 laps each, every lap being timed, and also timing key climbing and descending sectors of the lap…

What we’re looking for in the sector times is peak speeds, which rider is able to climb/descend fastest, both in a single lap and averaged out over the whole day, the lap times again we are looking for fastest lap times but also for drop off in performance over the whole 5 to see who tires fastest, again using the sectors to see where that drop off is most pronounced…

The reason for using the same bike and not making the two riders race each other is simply so that neither rider can gauge their speed from the other, and they won’t be tempted to race each other directly, there should be no bar mounted computer or watches allowed to indicated speed or time and riders will not be given any timing information until the experiment is completed.

If you wanted a real world test of Rider Vs Bike weight I reckon the above is about the best way to go about it… :nerd:

@Ian:- Basically you bastardized the wrong bit of pop physics terminology stolen from MBUK…

@mavisto:- While the lighter individual has a higher personal power to weight ratio on their own, couple them with a 10Lb heavier bike and the entire Rider + Bike package has a lower relative power to weight ratio, which is of course the one that matters in the given scenario…

Unsprung mass from my understanding is a way of describing mass on a bike which is not suspended ie, wheels, callipers, fork lowers, swing arm, any component which is unsuspended, considering the question made no reference to suspension I’m not sure what it has to do with the OP…

I think the power to weight ratio answer was pretty much the most useful the heavier rider is shifting less mass relative to their own weight and thus is doing less work relative to the lighter rider…

I’m not sure what the point of this exercise is meant to be, as it has almost no bearing on the real world, as you’ve removed far more variables than you ever could in reality…

Sorry Grumm what I was trying to say was that the tone of this thread suggested the only bike worth owning was a 4" full bouncer, obviously STW as a whole is full of die hard SS, Rigid, HT riders…

As for my Doddy comment, Nope I stand by it, he is a toss bag, I finally stopped reading Future's various comics years ago, about the time he reared his annoying bean shaped head; can't stand the fella, seems his best trick is jumping on whatever cycling bandwagon is going, has very little of use to offer yet another worthless member of the cycling fashionista..
Am I a snob? probably, but like all snobs I like to think it's taste and judgement :wink:

The term "Over-biked" seems to be chucked about more these days, I see plenty of people on expensive bikes grabbing fistfulls of brake wearing harrased and flushed faces on the simplest of descents, most don't seem to have their mood enhanced by having some goon on a HT worth a quarter of their own bike zip past, the same riders don't look to be enjoying the climbs either, I can't really see the fun in it if they are this misserable when riding…

By now it'll be wearing “camouflage”, normally a mixture of green and red paint applied liberally all over the fully assembled bike, that’s assuming it’s not on fleabay in bits… Shit bags!!!! :evil:

I think it’s a debate that cuts both ways, mountain biking in general (across all disciplines) can only really grow if there are people taking it up as a leisure activity, selling bikes for leisure use means slacker more DH orientated angles and steering setups playing the numbers game with suspension, quantity as opposed to quality, and playing to the marketing and magazine hype, the products better suited for privateer racers and serious non competitive riders will always exist but differentiating them from kit aimed at the more leisure/fair weather mountain biker is getting trickier…

Personally I think everyone is best out starting out on a 3-4” forked HT with a 71deg+ H/A, medium rise (1”), 620-660mm wide bars and a 70mm stem, pretty neutral all round trail geometry basically, with plenty of gears and decent brakes..
If you are going to get on with MTBs of any sort then you will enjoy riding such a bike for a good long while before you truly find it’s and your limits, it will make you a better rider both up and down as you have to pick your lines and learn how to use gears and brakes properly…

Yep I’ll agree HT’s lack the ultimate traction of a good XC bouncer but the lack of “talent compensation” does actually force you to become a better rider for climbs it means you actually learn what to do when traction becomes marginal (which will enevitably happen whatever you ride), when and how to attack or change line, for descents you learn when and where to brake how to carry speed and pump and how to bend your knees, sounds like basic skills but it’s stunning how few people e seem to actually posses them…

It amuses me that whilst bemoaning the “Doddy-isation” (agreed he is a toss bag with undue influence) of modern MTBs into stupid travel comedy machines for plebs, you all seem to see HT’s as somehow having become un-ridable for any serious up or downhill use, dare I say technology has made a fair few people lazy?
15 years ago a 4” travel suspension bike was a DH bike and any “serious” MTB rider wouldn’t entertain such an inefficient sponge soaking up all their energy on the climbs, people dreamt of owning Salsa, Dave Yates and Bontrager steel HT’s, how times change…

Ahhh I see what you’ve done there, tarred me with the “Dislike an eastern manufactured product must be some sort of bigot” brush. Clever, original…

Fact of the matter is vast quantities of “Exotic” branded parts have been turning up on fleabay lately, the prices seem quite low, especially for composite kit, cheaply produced composites wouldn’t get my vote, especially when they appear to employing the same level of technology as half arsed hobbyists, dressing it up as a groundbreaking new production method…

Cheap fork; great! Cheap composite fork no thanks, can you honestly tell me you want to compromise for a measly £80-£100 on a component for which failure can mean new teeth?

I understand that not everything from the East is shite, most of it is excellent, but as with any country there is some bound to be some shite produced and exported and this particular brand smacks of it (in my opinion, which I’m quite willing to accept is not always right), having said that I am tempted by one of their cheap Ally stems for my road bike, and am perfectly willing to be proven wrong (By proper comparative destruction tests)…

Its my ss 26er hardtail.

Even less need for a huge comedy rotor then…

The fork you linked to is described as; "For 29er 700c wheels" in the first line of the description, therefore I thought it was safe to assume you were using 29" wheels…

Good point…

Why do you need an 8” 4 pot on what I assume to be a 29er, rigid XC, Nancy bike?

At 15 stone I doubt an M4 with a 6” rotor would struggle to stop you…

FoamX3 technology increases the impact strength of carbon fibre by up to three times by inserting low density foam during the manufacturing process.

:lol: :lol: foam core then, like evey home built, vacuum bagged, bound to fail frame…

you can find “Exotic” branded Ally and CF crap all over fleabay, seems to be winging it’s way over from China…

Yep a 3-4" air sprung bouncer is the "Third Way" and probably the best option if you want an easier life, most bouncers will offer better traction, like I said though, most things are climb-able whatever you ride if you can read the trail ahead…

Seems to me like your want the moon on a stick though, a 6" super light bike that propels itself up the hills and flatters your talent quotient on the descent…

What do you actually need?

Both my MTB’s have a downhill bias, shorter stem, wider more upright bar position, both are HT’s also and both will climb better than I’m capable of…

Maybe the trouble is the rider, fitness is just one aspect, but don’t assume that just because your plodding up a hill you don’t need to think, pick a line and shift your weight about, it takes as much concentration to clean a tricky climb properly as it does to ride Rooty DH singletrack, perhaps more…

If your tyres slip on wet roots, it’s your fault, not the bikes. You should have spotted them and either picked the correct line or shifted your weight to compensate, plus if your not finding the DH sections very challenging, do you need 6” of bounce weighing you down for the climbs?

Buy a cheap HT for winter and learn some basic trail craft…

XC racers seem to do OK, perhaps we should re-define it as the perfect climbing bike for IT consultants and accountants…

Having lived in both Suffolk and Cambridgeshire I can confirm that East Anglia is pretty dull from a cycling point of view, but not totally devoid of the odd spot to ride, plus there is always the option to drive somewhere more interesting to go riding or racing…

Cycling is what you make of it, if you live somewhere flat build some jumps, or go explore your local woodland… There is always someone worse off than you, so why bother whinging…

I have taken the odd picture of my bikes, in the back garden once built up (For insurance purposes only of course), propped against a tree in the woods, at the top of a climb I may have struggled with… I like having the odd record of what my bikes looked like when new/clean, and where I’ve ridden them, I don’t tend to share the pic’s really.

As for helmet cam’s, I use mine once in a blue moon, it looks shite, all shakey and lots of wind noise but I don’t mind, I probably get 20 seconds of “acceptable” footage for every 10 hours I record on it, so far I have accrued maybe 40 second of worthwhile viewing, typically the person in front stacking and me piling into them…

I certainly don’t object to other peoples posted photo’s or videos, I like bikes and I like riding, and I enjoy seeing what others have been up to and what they are riding, it doesn’t have to be beautifully framed or properly focused it’s just a way of sharing their experiences. Plus how much effort is it to scroll on down past the “Bland” pic’s or click back, other forum’ tend to have a specific area to shove picture posts maybe the STW misery squad would benefit from something similar for them to avoid…

Having said that it’s not so odd to expect to see photographs with bikes in on a chuffing bicycle forum is it? You grumpy old ****…..

I’ve lived in Reading for almost 4 years now and never bothered to join a club or go on local organised rides(Maybe I should..), anyway I tend to do my own thing, there’s plenty about though, an Annual Swinley pass is pretty cheap, you’re not far from the Chilterns, and there’s the odd bit of woodland closer to Reading…

Could the new Crud road guards fit 35mm tyres? apparently they're quite good at containing spray may run a bit close for offroad duties though…

If we're burning money then Stans flows on CK ISOs with Sapim Ti spokes…
still not as pricey as the new crankbros wheel range though

Anywhere good? I presume by “2ft Moguls with flat landings” you mean a 2ft kicker without any real landing, probably rollable, am I right?

If so just ride at them and roll through a few times, you’ll soon find you can go faster and faster just doing this, once you’re comfortable with the terrain and hitting it at speed, then just try letting the brakes off a touch more, putting in the odd pedal stroke and allow the bike to take off, just try to stay balanced (as you would normally on the ground) no need to lean further forwards or back, the whole point of getting the wheels off the ground is that you’re trying to take the “smoothest” most flowing line which happens to be off the ground, the bike will know where it wants to go so don’t fight it, just “guide” it…

Main thing is stay relaxed, and take as many runs as you need, no need to put lot’s of pressure on yourself, if you get tense and anxious, start over thinking things and running through all the possible ways to crash as you approach then you probably will, just think positive, you know your line, you can see where your going, everything is set, just ride it…

Good luck…

I think my Med cage SLX was about £35, can't remember where from though, Merlin perhaps? It was a few months ago now…

Anyway, I thought I’d see if shimano’s new “shadow” mechs lived up to the hype.
It seems to work very nicely, worth the money I paid? Probably.
Worth the RRP? (in your LBS of course) Dunno about that, it’s got better cable routing, bangs into the stays a lot less, and it’s not caught a rock yet (but that’s probably as much good luck as the design), shifting is on a par with any other mid level shimano mech I’ve ever owned, no better or worse, I didn’t run out and replace the Tiagra on my DH bike with one, I certainly wouldn’t spunk the £100 odd for a Saint I don’t see how it’s worth 4 times a basic Deore/Tiagra level mech, other than a being a bit lighter…

Depending on the application, I would consider the SLX, but there are shimano mechs that push the chain back and fourth just as well, if you’re constantly catching rocks or the cable loop on your “traditional” style mech, or you are really annoyed by the sound of the mech bashing your stays than give it a whirl, but shop about for the best price you can and buy the Med’ cage, I couldn’t find a short, I have a Med and I think it’s pretty long, so god knows how low the Long version hangs…

Hammershcmidtttt (sp?) perhaps, not exactly a budget solution though…

Yeah it's possible, most things are possible, but then why bother? you'll have 2 gears and neither will be the right one…

Anyone not living in a major city, (i.e. a town or village) who exclusively cycles/walks/public transports about?

Just out of interest like…

Best tool I ever used was a fly press and a couple of scrap plywood off cuts.

But a bit of M10 studding, some chunky washers and 2 ply wood discs (Cut with a hole saw) work pretty well for me these days…

I don’t sell abroad, no logistical reasons; I’m just an out and out Xenophobe…

Sell to UK bidders only, don’t let those foreign devils take our worn out bicycle parts!

Is It me of is everything on fleabay overpriced anyway these days?

Yeah whatever you moany old Git…

Get with the programme, Angry is the new Happy!

Why not try Stalkbook???

3 x 3mm (I think) hex head bolts in the back of the largest sproket of most Shimano ones I've had…
Or if it's a really cheap one and riveted then break out the grinder… :-)

Personally I cannot condone the use of bicycle drawn trailers to transport children,I see it done round Reading, where I live and I just wince, they are basically death traps, with all the protective value of a tent.
It’s all well and good to say your reducing your carbon footprint and other road users should be able to spot their neon fabric sides and reflective flags, but that all becomes academic when some dizzy cow in a range rover crushes your first born, still that’s your choice…

As much of a tool as this driver was, you did run the risk of escalating things with your actions, does your nipper really need to see Daddy beaten up in the road by some angry white van man?

You’re as much of a road rage sufferer as anyone in a motorized vehicle in my view.
The really grown up thing to do is rise above the whole angry fight/flight response and actually think about what’s wisest/safest for you and your child…
Odds are white van man knew he was in the wrong, and an angry scowl in his mirror would have made the point, without potentially causing a fight, people are too quick to get punchy these days it seems…

My last LBS purchase was 2 weeks ago from Mountain high in Pangbourne, I needed a front gear cable in a hurry (admittedly to fit the massively under-priced SLX front-mech I bought from CRC), all they had on offer was a boxed XTR gear cable for £10, now I know I can get a far cheaper cable from CRC that will do the job just as well, but that will take 24-48 hrs to arrive and I needed it then and there and in the grand scheme of things £10 for a fancy cable is better than saving £5 and not being able to ride the bloody bike for 2 days, that’s where my LBS wins, they have the small items I need without any waiting, the price increase is perfectly reasonable in my view, considering the alternative is sitting at home for the weekend congratulating myself on having saved a pitiful sum at the expense of actually riding…

Walking through Mountain high their workshop seemed as busy as ever and I overheard the Fella upstairs telling one customer that while parts sales were down, complete bike sales were up a little and more people were bringing in bikes for repair work, his theory being the credit crunch had driven people out of their cars and onto their bikes a bit more, again this is where the good LBS’ beat CRC, I can buy a cheapo SLX for £16 but I still forget to order the cable, LBS scores a small sale, this is probably the case for about 30% of CRC’s sales, they generate a smaller secondary sale or a bit of workshop work for an LBS somewhere.

As with any LBS they had various goodies on display all at or around list price, but I don’t think they seriously expected stay afloat by flogging them, a good LBS does more than sell drivetrain parts, they offer workshop services and advice and sell complete bikes, all of which I think CRC/Merlin/Wiggle struggle to match online.

As for complaining about what is actually about a 40% markup, with a profit margin somewhere in the 10% range come on, most consumer good companies are expecting in the 100-200% gross profit range after costs, the majority of retailers would expect a far bigger profit from what is a low volume high price point sale, you can bet that Shimano won’t be selling to the shop at rock bottom prices, their own running costs, but you expect a small business to put themselves out of business to secure your custom, they’d probably be better off letting you walk out the door empty handed….

Buy one, Buy it Now…. NOW!

You can't break them, and all the kids will "respec" you…

Well lets say they sell it at £50 and bought it in from Madison at £27 (as suggested above) then the £23 mark up has to go towards various overheads, Leccy, tools, rent, etc, do you really think they make much profit? I’d be surprised if they made a fiver on the final £40 price they charged you…

CRC may be killing the LBS, but we all contribute by not buying from our local shop, in much the same way that, Amazon put the boot into book and music shops, someone always has to loose out…

A work colleague of mine asked to see the evidence (all based on the various interweb whinge pages he viewed, filled with people trying to dodge the points and the fine), instead of offering up the evidence the filth offered him a £70 speeding awareness course and no points as he was obviously too much bother to convict…

He took the £70 course as it kept his licence clean, but you are chancing it by challenging the fixed penalty notice in this way, they like to threaten extra points and fines for contesting, but it all comes down to which force is bollocking you and weather they need money or convictions to keep their Bosses happy…

Best solution is not to speed in the first place, but anyone who claims to always drive within all posted limits at all times is either a liar or stunningly dull… FACT!

Tifoon, Nice…

CRC have a high volume/relatively low overhead business model, I’m sure the fella was pulling a bit of a fast one, but don’t expect CRC prices in your LBS, they’d simply be cutting their own throats for your one measly sale…

I read the OP and all the others, none were actually very interesting, what is interesting is the history of the spork

I bought a Thing once, but I returned it, not off Merlin…
It was a toaster from Currys but I called every one in the shop a **** stick and told them how the Lord would judge them. I was escorted back to the care home…

I had a Halo SAS, it was heavy and not too tricky to bend, have to say that experience soured me on them, I'd rather stick to Mavic EX721 or EN521 for your needs I reckon..

Just zip tie the buggers on, it’s the best way to keep them attached, even in frames with hose guides.

Nope my missus has a WS Bike, which I insisted she tried, but in all honesty I cannot see the actual Design effort in WS packs (and I did have a look with her), other than girlier colours, my missus opted in the end for the post feminist approch of "you can carry all the stuff" and she seems quite happy with that approach thus far.

Tiny Torso or Gorilla like build; bloke packs come in a variety of sizes and all have adjustable straps so far as I'm aware, I don't see any small bloke specific packs, so why do women need to be flogged a WS pack it's just a rucksack…