I would go further north than Trondheim for NL…
…Tromso, Senja, Abisko.

Avoid a week either side of full moon, it does make a difference.

Aurora are twice as common around the autumn and spring equinox periods. So, late September/October or February/late March.

Might not be snowy in autumn…
…hope you have a lovely trip!

The sound balance.

Promising start 🙂

Not forgetting Starmer and half the shadow cabinet alienating female supporters with their ‘cervix’ mumblings.

I know of many women that have worked hard for the party over the years, canvasing door to door that will not support the current stance on ‘identity politics’ nor vote Labour in an election.

It is a gift to the Tories.

@zippykona thank you for this!! I’m getting too old for daytime 6 Music..

Try this https://radio.nme.com/
Listening to nme 1 and apart from the lottery advert and the occasional hippity hop pity song it’s not annoyed me.

Was fortunate to ride with him from Dunsop Bridge over Salter Fell pre-pandemic. Classic Lachy terrain.

WYSIWYG! Very affable. Was able to chat about the meltdown on GBDURO and future adventures.

Very impressive to watch riding gravel uphill on a road bike with 33mm tyres. I was on a XC MTB with 2.2″ tyres 🙂

Hope his feet hold out!!

https://flattyres-mtb.co.uk/route-guides/north-wales-mtb-routes/

Scroll down to:

– Clwydian Range
– Ceiriog Valley – Llangollen

🙂

My first thought also, Steele Lane.

You may note I’ve offloaded some ‘blame’ for any inaccurracies to more expert colleages in clinical specialties. Actually ex-colleagues as I wouldn’t be engaging in any of this dialogue if I was still working with patients.

Swyer syndrome is a good example of how science/medicine works, extremely rare however, when it becomes apparent, usually around puberty the most likely outcome is that female hormone treatment is given. The almost non-existent (a.k.a streak) gonads have ambiguous structure. There is a much greater risk of cancer! SRY (or sex chromosome) mutations are not the main cause of Swyer. The most frequent (known) cause are mutations in a gene involved in the male development pathway, but it has links to ovarian differentiation too (the last two sentences are from experts). They don’t get hung up on the (fe)male question as it really isn’t in the best interests of the patient and treat the person they are presented with to get the best outcome.

Humans still only produce male or female sex cells (gametes) in the process of sexual reproduction.

As someone neatly put it, sex is biologically determined and gender is a societal construct.

They are not like for like attributes and observing that you are biologically male or female at birth does *not* restrict any gender identity in later life. People with differences in *sexual* development (or appropriate label) therefore don’t need to be used validate gender identities.

It also does not demean the importance of gender/identity/personality. We are who we are, a whole range of genders/personalities/identities. The learned stereotyping is a real problem.

I am attempting to disengage from this thread as we are getting quite ‘circular’ and am conscious of how attempts at clear statements of the best known/current scientific positions can be quite upsetting to other readers (doubt there are any lurkers).

I need to read the ‘everesting tips’ thread on the Bike forum (probably a good indication of my sanity).

I mean, when you read it back doesn’t it sound crazy?

Single sex, female only provision.

As for your latter post, my transgender acquaintances, although they wish it were otherwise, accept that they remain in their original sexed bodies whilst living the best life they can in/with their gender identity.

Accommodations need to be made for all, transgender or not whilst protecting the vulnerable.

The (my) medical world finds categorization very useful in assessing likely prognosis, risks of disease etc. These assessments are under continuous evaluation as to appropriateness and accuracy. They are observations of the natural world.

Both GIDS and WPATH noted that karotype distribution was in line with a matched population. However, it would not be surprising that people with more fundamental problems have dysphoric issues.

I did mean females, the term trans(gender) identifying females a.k.a. transmen could be seen as problematic however, I have endeavoured in this thread to clearly distinguish between sex and gender terminology.

This confusion of ‘meaning’ is unhelpful.

@brucewee The number is ~0.018% Females with PCOS that only becomes apparent later in life are females.

Fausto Sterling is nonsense.

That’s why I also used variance. The wording changes and yes, it is so difficult to find more neutral terminology. Intersex is so last century.

A person with ovaries containing eggs (that developed from week nine post-conception whilst they were an embryo/foetus in their mother’s womb) would be female.

The 5-ARD example is effectively a person with at first sight apparently non-male genitalia and testes. A male.

Can you change one into the other?

Ha, ha, ha.

You know the answer is no.

It’s estimated that 1.7%

This is an incorrect and oft quoted fallacy. Over 99.98% of babies are observed (correctly) as male or female at birth. The remainder undergo more detailed assessment and fall into male or female (according to my medical colleagues that specialise in such things). The classification isn’t a convenience…

An example – a child with 5-ARD can have poorly developed external genitals at birth, the sex cannot be confidently observed. Detailed examination would show that this child has 46XY (male chromosomes) and internal testes. Therefore male.

Intersex is an outdated term, it carries a false implication. We now use difference or variance in sexual development. These individuals often carry the problem(s) thoughout their life as medical science can only do so much to repair some of the issues.

Male sex cell – male gamete – sperm, female sex cell – female gamete – egg/ova.

How would you know if it’s ambiguous?

Think before you type? Though that is a bit pot and kettle!

Modern medical science has many tools to investigate and clarify the initial macro level ambiguity.

The sex binary is a red herring however…

..in most animals, an organism’s biological sex corresponds to one of two distinct types of reproductive anatomy that develop for the production of small or large sex cells—sperm and eggs, respectively—and associated biological functions in sexual reproduction.

The evolutionary function of these two anatomies is to aid in reproduction via the fusion of sperm and ova. No third type of sex cell exists in humans, and therefore there is no sex “spectrum” or additional sexes beyond male and female…

…however, underlying this definition there is a range of anatomies and physiologies. Often misinterpreted as additional sexes.

There are situations where genitalia doesn’t form properly at birth and the sex of a child is ambiguous. This is – rightly or wrongly – treated as a medical emergency and surgery is undertaken to assign a sex. This is almost universally to ‘boy’, the phrase I read was “it’s easier to create a pole than a hole” though I do wonder how much the patriarchy is at play here.

Where did you get this from!? The only reason it would be an emergency is if there were associated problems e.g. ability to urinate, defaecate, exposed bowel. Also, there is not an equal distribution of sex ambiguity between males and females with differences in sexual development. Therefore the
interventions do not ‘result’ in a 50/50 outcome of sexes.

@5plusn8 I was referring to Transmen?

You meant trans women there, right? That was just a typo? Trans women generally want to use women’s toilets, not trans men.

@cougar No, transmen are trans-identifying females. This is about sex not gender…

many feminists would reject this provision

agreed. However, they seemed invisible in this discussion and merit attention.

Sorry, let me reword that slightly – ‘tolerance, having the ability to challenge and if necessary the ability to police and exclude’. Hope that is clearer.

I can only assume that you mean cisgendered women. Does this mean that a women sexed bathroom would exclude transgender women? Would it also exclude intersex women?

Single-sex female only provision (inclusive of transmen) and and ‘open’ provision. Same in sport, though transmen would likely fall foul of anti-doping measures…

…policing, in sports, chromosomes as a first pass then an appeal route for exceptions. Toilets as now, tolerance and the ability overtly police, challenge and exclude as necessary.

P.S. In my opinion using males and females with differences in sexual development (intersex) in your gendered argument is abhorrent.

@nickc Compressing many years of bad news does highlight a trail of destruction however, myself, colleagues, wife and her colleagues did follow that textbook. That does not make the news.

Totally agree about the influence of money 🙁

Ben Goldacre is a good read on the failings of Pharma.

it is perhaps however a truth that should no longer be brushed under the carpet; that nearly every advancement of medical science leaves a trail of victims in it’s wake. As horrific as that sounds (It is) It’s also pretty accurate.

Ethical advancement of medical science is built upon incremental development of knowledge. Trials are proposed, peer reviewed and established. Patients recruited informed of risks and outcomes. Data is collected, analysed and informs any next steps.

There is undoubtedly unethical ‘experimentation’ however, my opinion is that this is rare (I don’t have data to back it up…).

Unfortunately, management of some adolescents with gender-related problems seems to fall into the latter category.

P.S. Regarding point C) doesn’t the ‘Transwomen are women’ solgan immediately highlight a conflict? I think toilets and sports are highlighted as people can relate to them. Especially the wider unengaged public. I first became aware of this through cycling. An area of concern is the potential for malicious (non trans) males to exploit any transgender-related ‘accommodations’.

I wonder are there more de-transitioners than there are gender-dismorphic suicide victims?

@molgrips suicide rates of ‘gender-dysmorphic’ individuals are in line with similar age group referrals to CAMHS. Both these groups have the same range of underlying psychological/psychiatric problems ASD, body dysmorphia, drug dependency…. the gender component clouds the issue, it is not the source problem.

There is very little data on outcomes of drug and surgical treatment. The clinical studies I have read do not show any benefit (some argue they show worse than ‘do nothing’).

I think it is GIDS that has data that if a ‘do minimum’ approach is taken, well above 80% reconcile their ‘inner selves’ with their sexed bodies. Many are gender non-conforming lesbians. Early access to neutral support is needed.

This paper has a reasonable summary. These are caring concerned clinicians, not ‘phobes.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A#

but It’s relatively common to have folks who have sex chromosomes saying one things and their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy saying another.

People with Differences in Sexual Development (DSD) are male or female.

Yes, scientific enquiry continues however, a newly discovered cellular level minutiae does not explain the recent explosion in referrals to the NHS specialist services of adolescent females with gender issues.

It is unfortunate that the ‘sex’ definition has to be discussed (though I may have started it…), if I remember correctly both GIDS and WPATH note broadly normal distributions of Karotype within transgender individuals.

Nooo!

My ‘mate’ totally sandbagged me over that on my first visit to ‘degla.

@cougar I have previously explained to you the position on the two sexes.

Concerned it is being pushed too readily

in wider society, yes. However, given this is the situation we are already in, those that have problems should have better access to appropriate services. Unfortunately, CAMHS has been decimated over recent years. That service should be an accessible first port of call for comprehensive assessment and management.

I have no answer for you personally and my heart goes out to your and your family.

@kelvin where do I stand…TL; DR

Formerly an NHS hospital doctor with years of A&E experience. I have grave concerns on the impact of the transgender narrative on the vulnerable adolescents and young adults that I met during some of their darkest moments.

Sex is biologically determined and fixed. Gender is a societal construct ‘imposed’ and assimilated/developed through life, an aspect of personality?

A very Sunday evening post…

Thanks @grum however, my rationale still holds. The Commission cannot weigh up competing interests in a neutral manner if it is actively and singularly engaged with a political/activist group that sides with one of the impacted groups.

Seems like the EHRC is becoming increasingly politicised and are now being drawn into ‘anti-woke’ culture wars at the behest of the government. How is that a good thing?

@grum I have the opposite conclusion. Stonewall is an activist group focusing on particular protected characteristics (Equality Act). The Commission has a duty to be neutral, especially where there maybe a conflict between protected characteristics.

Growing up in the 70s and 80s, I was allowed to be me. If I was a young person growing up today, I know that wouldn’t be the case. I guess I was (and still am) ‘not like the other girls’ but I didn’t grow up bombarded with the message that wearing the clothes I wanted to wear, having my hair cut short, and doing the activities I wanted, meant that I don’t fit in the ‘woman box’.

@rainper Thank you for your post.

The current ‘identity’ mantra is deeply homophobic.

Lesbians (same sex attracted biological females) I know are hacked off with the influx of ‘lesbian’ transwomen (i.e. heterosexual biological males with a feminine gender identity) on dating apps…

@5plusn8 yes, sloppy use of terminology that doesn’t have impications for shellfish but it is a big deal for us ‘Great Apes’.

Wiki (and myself) are not infallible. Wiki content is often skewed by ‘interested parties’. I’m just biased 🙂

The use of incorrect ‘gender’ in place of ‘sex’ seeped into science a while back. Noone realised the implications of the incorrect use of the words. This is why we need to be explicit in what we mean when using them. Sex – biological, observable, falsifiable, male and female. Gender (in humans) – social norms, expected behaviours, personality, masculine, feminine and anything inbetween or either side.

Gender never meant sex. It was only invented 70 years ago. Sex has been around somewhat longer…

most of biology, gender and sex mean pretty much the same thing, what we should be talking about is ‘gender expression’ or ‘gender presentation’.

No they don’t, not in evolutionary biology, mammalian biology and human biology. A while back biologists went ‘sure we’ll use gender in place of sex’, just to be ‘polite’. This can be seen in old research papers, they didn’t realise the impilcations of going along with the terminology. Nowadays the terms are used much more carefully as to not conflate and confuse. The sex diamorphism and implications on anatomy, physiology were taken ‘as read’. Again, in the current climate science is having to reiterate and explain what was taken for granted…

So is it a fact or your belief?

@cougar both?

See Baroness Falkner – the incoming chairwoman of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission said it was “entirely reasonable” for people to challenge the biological status of women who were born as men. Baroness Falkner of Margravine added it was a “freedom of belief” the commission was determined to protect.

“Someone can believe that people who self identify as a different sex are not the different sex that they self identify,” she said. “A lot of people would find this an entirely reasonable belief.”

Needed to read that last quote a few times to untangle it. Apparently a ‘belief’ in (scientific) facts is protected under the Equality Act…

That rather depends on how you define ‘sex’ which is actually a bit more complicated than most people think.

It is both simpler and more complex.

There are 2 biological sexes, we call them male and female. This is derived from millenia of observation of the animal world where 2 adults contribute parts of their makeup (genome) to create new life a.k.a. sexual reproduction. All mammals do this. The male is architected (phenotype) to produce the s*erm, the female the egg. Underlying this definition there are a range of anatomies and physiologies e.g. sex chromosomes, some argue there are 6 sexes based on chromosomes. The reality is those with a Y are male, without are female. Intersex is an unfortunate old term used to describe people with Differences in Sexual Development, these are still male or female people and should not be brought into gender discussions.

The problem is that the erasure of gender is also leading to the erasure of women…

I see you have since edited this 🙂

SUrely the problem is the use of ‘gender’ as replacement for ‘sex’ is leading to the erasure of women?

I find it also helps if you disaggregate LBGTQIA+ into sub groups.

LGB – sexual orientation
TQ – identity etc.
Also within the ‘T’ there are quite different individuals/groups
– young adolescent girls entering puberty and struggling with major bodily changes, sense of self, peer pressure and sexuality wondering if they are lesbian or really boys
– older males looking to live their true feminine self.

One size doesn’t fit all…

The unholy stench off them is just one of the things I don’t get about dog ownership.

In the morning our Collie smells like its been sleeping in the McVities Biscuit factory on Stockport Road… 🙂

However at present I am minded to re-focus on the training.

We have an all-purpose ’emergency stop’ command. Our dog will stop whatever it is up to and do this (a lie ‘DOWN’) command. We have also a whistle version of that command. It stops any undesirable behaviour. You then have the attention of the dog and you can try a recall.

Years of repetition and reward.

Keep at it 🙂