So if vaccination should be compulsory in the UK, why isn’t it?

Just want to say I received the first vaccine dose this morning and so far haven’t developed new ways of telecommunicating or met Bill Gates.

Well you would say that. That’s what they’ve programmed you to say.

And anyway, where’s your evidence?

I’d made a full recovery. Returned to 12 hour TT racing and was back training at up to 400km/week with no adverse events for the previous six months

I’m not picking on you, honest, but doesn’t the EB virus hang around forever, potentially causing all kinds of trouble?

Not just whataboutery but some kind of slippery slope/whataboutery/straw man hybrid – bravo!

Thank you!

But are you not at all concerned about the double standard? (Not that you should live life according to my extreme example, but perhaps that the hatred of non-vaxxers is perhaps inappropriate/disproportionate?)

@TiRed: You recently said here you have long COVID despite no preexisting conditions but also said you had glandular fever last year. Why do you not count that as a preexisting condition? Could it not have made you more susceptible or indicate some existing predisposition?

I ask because a friend is in the same situation.

this summer’s exams should be cancelled now.

They were cancelled some time ago in Wales. I haven’t noticed any decrease in stress levels in my daughter as a result, and she’s also had very generous offers from the unis she applied to.

Plenty of kids when I was at school had to take a year out for illness or something and did just fine in the end (and plenty who didn’t didn’t). I don’t see a need to panic about education – yet.

The anti-vaxxers are a different breed, they’re basically a cult, hitting the streets trying to kill as many people as they can.

The pubic hare joke was very funny to be fair, but this isn’t. There are plenty of people who quietly choose not to vaccinate and do not try to influence others.

Out of interest, can you tell me how many people these murderers actually kill?

I understand that any attempt to bring perspective to the debate will be dismissed as whataboutery, but every time we buy something for our bikes we are choosing not to feed or inoculate kids in the developing world who will then die. Does that make us murderers? Of course, this is a false equivalence. We are knowingly being selfish, whereas the antivaxxers for all their faults are trying to do the right thing.

As someone just said, it’s not black and white. I am not an antivaxxer but I am dealing with someone who is, and you still haven’t convinced me that I should join the baying mob.

Is that another devil’s advocate position? Or does it really not make sense to you?

No, that argument does not make sense to me. If there wasn’t money in vaccines, drug companies wouldn’t make them.

Pfizer have agreed to supply the vaccine at cost…so no, there’s literally no money to be made curing acute disease.

But this thread is about vaccines in general.

(I’m not supporting the “they’ve got shares in XYZ therefore it’s all bollocks” argument btw. We’ve pretty much all got shares in XYZ, one way or another.)

Which is of itself a daft argument, as anyone even remotely engaged in the economics of healthcare will tell you, there’s no money in curing acute disease, all the profit’s to be made in managing chronic illness, which is the opposite of what a successful vaccine is…

This doesn’t make sense to me. Making money from the vaccine would be in addition to managing chronic illnesses which will continue to occur regardless.
In fact, keeping people alive means there’s more chance of them needing repeated care in the future.

FWIW I’ve always run an oval ring on mine and never lost the chain or had any problems.

Common sense and personal experience, often tragedy, encouraged parents to protect their children, something that you seem to be completely devoid of.

To use your own words above, have you not bothered to read my posts? Since when was I an antivaxxer? And what do you know about my background?

Such hostility from people arguing that other people need to be more caring and think of people around them…

Did those worrying that casual sexism etc in the films might corrupt a young person find it had that effect on themselves?

I’d say it was online pornography you want to worry about there.

Ultimately, whether or not your son enjoys the early films depends on his specific personality and on prior exposure to more modern all-action films.

My son watched very little telly at all after Postman Pat and then devoured all the Bond films at 12 or 13, but doesn’t rate Bourne.

You can’t go wrong with the Moore era I would say, especially Live and Let Die, because there are some truly funny scenes (double decker bus) and characters (sheriff) and amazing stunts (speedboat chase) that kids love.

And the stunts were real.

Live and let die

Boris just needs to man up and do what Jacinda Ardern has done and pass a law that makes mandatory vaccinations possible.

Except she hasn’t 🤷‍♂️

you’ve lived a very sheltered life precious

Ive lived in the same country as you where there has been no compulsory vaccination.

Because there has been no need for it.

The fact that vaccine hesitancy hasn’t stopped vaccines working would seem to undermine all the hatred for those people.

Society has to make opportunities dependent on vaccination to persuade them there is a direct personal benefit of taking it.

That’s not persuasion. That’s forcing them. This isn’t a police state. Forcing people to take medicines isn’t how we do things. And it’s not necessary.

Good points. Thanks!

No, they’re worse, they’re malicious and ignorant, and self-centred. The only thing that’s important to them is themselves, the greater good does not concern them, they could bulk buy gravestones engraved ‘It’s all about ME’.

This is precisely what I would like to understand. Someone is doing what they think is the right thing, and is accused of being malicious and selfish as a result. Why is it so hard to quietly and politely disagree like people do over Brexit or politics?

Your continued support for that mindset makes you almost as bad, try as you might to deny it.

Support? Continued? Deny?

So can you provide a real example rather than internet whataboutery please

There’s not much point trying to get me to argue something I don’t believe in.

But I do know it isn’t black and white. The WHO thinks chicken pox vaccines are essential for children. The UK doesn’t.

So I can disagree, but I cannot dismiss.

don’t care about the wider consequences of their choices

Are there times when it is acceptable to put family before community?

If your child is more likely to be harmed by the vaccine than by the disease it aims to prevent, it’s not a straightforward decision. We are preprogrammed to protect our children.

Mary Toft

Lol. That was new to me. Was that the inspiration for magicians pulling rabbits out of a hat?

They kill people.

Anti-vaxxers sabotage this.

they are put at risk when diseases like measles reappear.

But not to any massive extent.

We all make choices that we believe to be justified but could cause ourselves or others harm.

I’m just interested in why such vitriol is reserved specifically for these people.

They believe they’re doing the right thing, and they’re definitely not all thick.

Do you hate smokers and speeding drivers with the same passion? Or Tory voters? Etc etc.

Mine is still working fine after 11 months and 2000 miles. Discounted from £80 to £60, I think, and for that kind of money you can’t go wrong really. There is a little side-to-side play in the saddle but most droppers seem to. Mine isn’t slow. It is a little heavy.

I would take it over my temperamental Reverb any day. And way better than Gravity Dropper.

But, as mentioned, 100mm isn’t much. I still drop the post manually as well on gnarly stuff. Worth having a quick-release clamp.

Do you really require an answer to this question?

No, it’s rhetorical.

There are plenty of things we all do that are far more of a danger to others than not getting vaccinated, so why are we so on their case?

Why do people get so het up about antivaxxers? They can only pass on these things if they get them, and if vaccines work the herd immunity will mean they won’t get them, and even if they did almost nobody would catch it off them anyway.

And if we are to argue that they’re still selfish because there’s an incredibly small chance they could pass it on to someone who can’t be vaccinated, do we not then have to take drastic action not to be just as selfish and, say, wear masks at all times even after COVID in case we catch and pass on measles despite being vaccinated, as does happen, or stop driving our cars even well within the speed limit because a child could still jump out in front of us?

It’s very easy to be hypocritical here.

Can it not be like politics where it is OK for someone to have the opposite opinion to ours?

Like I have said many times, the science is evolving.

Could it be that the science is just really slow? Vitamins C and D are proven to be good for other viral infections.

My wife would certainly load up on both before lighting up and stepping in front of that firing squad.

Every overweight person in the UK could’ve easily got down to healthy weight in the past nine months, and a large percentage of the obese too.

Erm… that’s utter crap. Are you sizeist or just naive?

I’m not sure what to make of that critical analysis.

You can lose a lot of weight in nine months. This would have been a great time to reset the nation’s eating habits. Or at least try. I had in mind a somewhat broader programme than just a flabby PM saying a bit a of walk might be a jolly good idea.

ONS have done multiple analyses of this information.

Thank you. Unfortunately, to be of any practical use the data would need to break each condition down into ages and severities and so on, and effects not just deaths. Is poor data another of the reasons this country has done so badly?

Losing weight will help. But Christmas….

Every overweight person in the UK could’ve easily got down to healthy weight in the past nine months, and a large percentage of the obese too. I get that the government are averse to telling people what to do, but they could at least tell people how they can help themselves and their families. This is their great chance to do something about diet and obesity, and they’re blowing it.

Getting the nation to cut right down on sugar and processed shite and eat loads of veg (for a start) would save far more lives and do far more for health and wellbeing and for the NHS in both the short and the long term than anything else I can think of.

What I’m learning from this thread is that the arguments have moved on since the summer. It’s no longer just about deaths, it’s not harmless to the under-60s, we can’t ignore it, and it’s too late to contain it or protect the most at risk. Thank you.

One thing I could tentatively contribute is that the economic damage is not as great at an aggregate level as the headlines would suggest. We’re still making as much as we were in 2010. So the key is to support those who are struggling individually and focus on health. The economy can wait.

I think your phrase was ‘hiding behind the sofa’. You then have questioned the evidence provided with alternative views yet provided very little in the way of credible alternatives, or answered what you want to see that will change your mind.

That was a quotation, intended ironically, from someone else’s post. I haven’t questioned any evidence, presented any alternative views or attempted to present any credible alternatives, and I don’t have a mind to change. Otherwise that’s a fair summary 🙂

Well, I did make a throwaway comment about having a proper lockdown, and I still don’t see why that wouldn’t work. But I have no influence over government policy so there’s no point looking beyond my own family/community really.

In one ear I have the government firing out clearly flawed and skewed information to support their position, and in the other I have some credible people, not just nutters, offering stats which often make more sense – and somehow, without expertise, I have to work out what to believe.

My instinct is to believe the science. But I know from personal experience (that’s all I have to offer) that the science isn’t always clear, or right. “Trust me, I’m a doctor” just doesn’t cut it. (Take the NHS guidelines on diet and diabetes and obesity…)

But OK, some very specific questions:

1. Covid has been kept out of nursing homes in my county, so why is that not a realistic strategy elsewhere?
2. Why, to my knowledge, are there still no statistics on the risks and effects for different existing conditions? And do Covid deaths still include unrelated deaths or not?
3. Why aren’t people being encouraged to improve their health and strengthen their immune systems?

can’t agree with you / Chrispo / Arsebioscuits or any of the others

Please don’t lump me in with this. I haven’t said a single thing opposing lockdowns or social distancing or vaccination.

I wonder if this is indicative of the more general polarisation of opinion into extremes these days, from Brexit onwards.

If you’re not with us, you’re against us, and we’ll lump you in with the most extreme views so that we can dismiss everything you have to say.

Banning and ridiculing the other side won’t win them over.

And it really isn’t just down to science. Balancing deaths and freedoms and so on is a judgement and always open to debate.

given a condition like that how is she planning on living her life?

Diet, supplements and meditation.

You’ve had multiple answers, from multiple people. Not just one. Just maybe not answers you like which is why you don’t seem to be listening.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. Those aren’t numbers referring to my specific case. But the proportions are probably not too far out. Some people are helping a lot. Others aren’t. And nobody’s picking them up on it.

Trust me, I am listening and digesting. Critically. But I’m also getting really peed off by people like this:

Sounds like the typical “anti-vax concerns” seeking reassurance but spreading FUD. Back under your bridge, better still delete your account as your ‘concerns’ are not and we don’t need this around these parts.

So there’s two separate things getting intermingled, which doesn’t help.

when presented with the actual scientific evidence by people in the field, the only appropriate reply should be “I’ll go away and read it and I’ll come back with any questions later.” It needs to work both ways, and to be fair, it usually does.

A good point. I’m trying. The sources aren’t really aimed at the layperson though.

So come on then, based on this legitimate concern, how do you rationalise taking any pharmaceuticals?

For me, there is a big difference between ingesting a chemical like a painkiller with a fairly predictable effect and messing with your immune system which is an unpredictable beast.

Sources? Most notably 20 years caring for a wife with a serious autoimmune disease who has also had radiotherapy and chemotherapy. There is absolutely no way she’d take this vaccine and trust me she has researched autoimmune disease endlessly and has scientific sources for everything.

Being uncertain and worried about her and my kids and the population in general does not make me an antivaxxer or a troll.

But I really don’t want to take over this thread and further dilute the useful information being provided here. I will shut up now.

Also – that whole concept is a complete nonsense: That you may have broken the guidance in some limited, one-off way….. therefore you are just as bad as others who are ignoring the rules completely.

I didn’t say that. I just think there’s room to be less judgemental. I exercised from home the other day and the forest was full of cars. My instinctive reaction was anger/despair. But (a) they could conceivably all be disabled and (b) although they’re breaking the rules, they’re not actually doing any more harm than I was. It’s good to take a step back.

It’s just another one of these:

Have drug companies ever been known to cherry-pick data or even just lie to get a drug approved? I hear they have.

a comment designed solely to divert the conversation down another pointless rabbit hole.

No, it isn’t. It’s an open question and a legitimate concern.

I hope you’re not as quick to leap to conclusions based on bugger-all data in your important scientific work.

Don’t judge others by your own standard Crispo I’ve done none of these things.

That’s amazing. Hats off.

No judgement. My aim was to encourage some of the people on this thread to take a step back and be more tolerant and open-minded.

Someone questions the consensus here. Five people pile in to tell them they haven’t lost someone (haven’t they?) so they should shut up. Another five say they’re not a scientist (aren’t they?) so they should shut up. One gives an answer.

Guess who they’re going to listen to?

@TiRed. Kudos for replying to this troll in a calm and logical manner. I admire your self control

I’m not a troll, but someone seeking truth and reassurance and balance and kindness and finding little.

Thank you to those who have made the effort.

edit: please do let me know if you consider this useful

Thank you. Looks like bog-standard side-effects.

Have drug companies ever been known to cherry-pick data or even just lie to get a drug approved? I hear they have.

I wish this forum had a like/agree button because it’s so hard to acknowledge all the helpful answers. Thank you all for those.

And equally hard not to bite back at those who patronise you (listen to the answers) or make snide assumptions despite knowing nothing about you (place your bets).

As for the Googling, of course I have, but have you tried getting unbiased information on vaccination recently?

it’s not been fast tracked per se

I don’t have peer-reviewed evidence of this to hand, but I’m pretty certain drugs are not normally tested for less than a year. I’m also pretty sure that if they only needed testing for a few weeks to pick up long-term side-effects, that’s what would happen as standard. Because that’s basic economics, which I do know a thing or two about.

So somebody has weighed it all up and decided yes they’re safe and effective enough given the situation. That is not science. It’s not absolute. It’s a judgement.

Convince me of why your evidence is better than the peer reviewed though, I’m open to listen.

So people just have to blindly trust what they’re told without questioning anything unless they can come up with peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary? It’s a bit Big Brother.

I don’t think you need to be an expert to have valid questions or opinions.

So much is riding on these jabs. It’s not unheard of for governments to lean on regulators and scientists.

Not bad at all. A few benders. A few perfect 10s.

I too have been very very good apart from riding a couple of times with my main cycling buddy during lockdown after he was diagnosed with a terminal illness.

I wonder though if all these other people we see around us also think they are being sensible and complying with the spirit if not the letter of the law, or feel they have special reasons not to.

But even all you good’uns, have you never stopped to talk to someone less than two metres apart? Touched someone without thinking? Not washed your hands after shopping? Made a journey that wasn’t genuinely essential?

Or ridden with friends? I have. Forget social distancing when you’re following someone on a bike. Ever seen how much of a cloud you exhale when the weather’s cold?

I think we’re pretty much all guilty in some way of spreading this thing.

(Well, not literally in the case of people who haven’t had it, obvs)

So tales about so-and-so doing such-and-such aren’t too helpful.

I’d be most interested in hearing how we know a vaccine that has been tested for less than a year will actually work and will not cause harm five or ten years down the line. And why we should trust this government or big pharma when they say it’s safe and effective.

A couple of drugs my family have been given or offered have since been withdrawn for being useless and/or unsafe, and they were tested for years.

No-one is advocating ‘hiding behind the sofa’ (interesting both you and arsebiscuits use exactly the same phrase btw 🤔).

Dammit, rumbled.

Have you ever thought that the reason that the virus is massively out of control is precisely because people don’t trust the science and are doing whatever they like?

Yes. My point is: Where are all these people? Statistically they must dominate on STW too. Why are they so quiet here?

What’s noteworthy is that you’re accusing people of being nasty in defense of the only really obnoxious poster in this thread.

Fair point. But it wasn’t defence. Just wish there was more balance. And kindness.

OK, I have a question. How many of you, hand on heart, have not at any time broken the Covid rules?

The answer will almost certainly be none. So can you really be so holier than thou about everyone else being so irresponsible?

Two wrongs don’t make a right…

TiRed does seem to be something of a saint and I have a lot of respect for him. But he doesn’t know everything and I can see for myself that he doesn’t get everything right. So there is still scope to question both his analysis and the government line.

I’m wasting my time, I know, but I just don’t get the overpowering consensus on here. In the real world, most people do not trust the science or the government and are not hiding behind the sofa. The doom and gloom here is oddly unrepresentative.

Blimey, you lot can be nasty. This does kinda confirm what I was saying the other week. Arsebiscuits is a bit ranty yet there are some fair points in there. But everyone just piles in to ridicule him. Dissent is verboten.

The experts haven’t done a brilliant job so far. And it’s just too easy to blame the government. Labour have backed the Tories all the way, and every other country seems to have made the same mistakes anyway. There is a worrying lack of critical scrutiny of both government and science. The BBC just trots out the government line. Who is putting out the balanced info that we really need, from between the two extremes of government lies and nutty fantasies?

I see a lot of bullying and arrogance on this thread. It’s a hard time for everyone, so a bit of tolerance would be in order.

Enough people who have to continue to work to keep society going. Just enough to keep the virus ticking over indefinitely,
Then after your three weeks then it goes on the rampage again…

If that were the case, wouldn’t the same apply to a 70% effective vaccine?

Lots of stones being thrown here as usual. Good job none of you live in glass houses…

If they did a proper lockdown for three weeks, no work and no shopping, the thing would be gone.