Yes, P7, you are right. Sorry, the BMI reference is a bit obscure. Ignore it.

I realise the human rights aspects don’t worry most here, but the practicalities are the main point given the government record on track and trace etc. ID cards and iris scanners fitted on every bus is it?

Bill Gates must be rubbing his hands 😉

How realistic is this though? Think of the logistics for implementing and enforcing it, and that’s even before you get to human rights.

And would it extend to other diseases like measles? Or HIV?

Would we also have limits on BMI?

Not for me. I think the extra weight is worth it.

Both fun- and speed-wise, I’ll take my enduro bike over my XC bike on anything that isn’t uphill or road.

And it’s so nice not having to fix punctures in the ice and snow.

Riding to and from the forest on a big bouncy bike because of Welsh lockdown rules is character-building but probably useful cross-training.

(It’s also pretty unusual as almost everyone else I know is still driving up and riding in groups.)

It must depend on the stove and the fuel though?

We’ve got two: one is a designer job and fills the room with smoke when you open the door if you’re not careful and is thoroughly temperamental, while the other one is more agricultural and doesn’t let smoke out at all ever and burns really hot. And I’m anal about using properly dry hardwoods.

Even the temperamental one is Swedish and they burn wood like crazy and are among the world’s top planet savers🤷‍♂️

Am I misunderstanding what people are referring to?

Yes, I think so. I posted a chart earlier today that I found on the BBC which seems to suggest flu plus Covid deaths in Wales (not England) are well below average flu deaths. Which I thought was surprising. That’s where it’s come from.

Look. You’re asking good questions. But you’re also getting good answers and your response is always simply “but, but, but…” But nothing. There are people trying to educate you who know what they are talking about, if you’re not prepared to listen to replies then you’re just wasting their time

True. But, but, but…

Not agreeing with people isn’t the same as not listening. Questioning what people are saying isn’t the same as not listening.

Nothing is black and white, there are always buts. Testing the hypothesis is what science is all about, no?

I haven’t been offered much in the way of scientific enlightenment on this thread anyway. All I’ve had really is opinions and grief, some of it doubtless brought on by me but also some of it because people simply haven’t listened to me.

If you’re not 100% with us, you’re against us. Or not listening. And we know best. So you must be a dumb ****.

Not everyone. But collectively that is the end-result.

All in all, it’s a really toxic environment and to be honest I’ve been trying to exit this thread for a few days but people keep then asking me direct questions or making direct attacks and I get sucked back in, like now.

And I know I’m opening myself up for a load more grief now, but it would be great if just one or two of you would for a moment consider that even someone who “doesn’t listen” to you or doesn’t unquestioningly agree with everything you say might still be worth listening to.

Well, actually, no. I am fairly certain that you would all do that in real life. What is it about this place?

It’s like dealing with anti-vaxxers…

We’ve been taking extraordinary measures to try and slow the spread of CV2. These extra hygiene measures will also reduce the transmission of many other viruses.

So if it does turn out that we end up with fewer deaths than normal (which seems unlikely to be fair) will we end up with masks and social distancing being made permanent? Will letting the oldies die of flu each year become unacceptable in future?

Well, no, then they have to die of something else. I’m too tired to think this through…

Is society going to change permanently once/if it’s over, do we think?

I read back and you just insulted me instead

Don’t go all faux thin-skinned on me. Absolutely not an insult. You’re too quick with the clever answers, in both senses, for it to be a useful exercise. It might be entertaining, admittedly, but I’m not at my sharpest at the moment.

OK so why don’t you just adopt tired’s method, it may save you all the time? I don’t know probably 2% of what Tired knows about the subject so feel uncertain of my talents in that area.

Ditto. But the patience and politeness we can all do if we try. It’s beyond frustrating at times but these are not people I can hate.

PS What is a “commulist”? It doesn’t even come up as a bizarre sexual predilection in the urban dictionary.

No sooner than I reply, you’ve edited it…

How do you suppose you might find the skills to convince them?

I think TiRed’s approach in the Covid thread is worth emulating.

I’ll take that as a ‘no’ then?

I’m not sure what the question was, but no I don’t think there’s much point doing a role play as you’re too much of a smart arse.

Which is not meant at all negatively: I generally like smart arses.

TiRed: Thanks. I might address all my posts to “someone brainy” in future.

Kilo: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-52380643

Seeing as TheArtist is now kindly taking all the flak, I’ll just round off by responding to P7 and Kerley:

I’ve appealed to their sense of logic and proportion, with little success. They come armed with more facts/“facts” than I do. It’s exhausting.

Don’t be tempted to infer from this that such an approach is destined always to fail. Circumstances mean that I am not the person most likely to be listened to. Plus, I’m me: a week in and I’ve still failed even to convince the open-minded STW massive that I’m not a rabid antivaxxer myself.

I should add that their scepticism predates Wakefield and is more along the lines of the argument for eating organic food, i.e. natural is best.

Can someone brainy comment on this chart currently on the BBC please? It’s quite out-of-date, as we’re now up to 3,500 Covid deaths in Wales, but it does seem to suggest that if you add Covid and flu deaths together, they come to fewer deaths than normal in 2020.

If that is the case, do staff absences alone explain the extra pressure on hospitals, or is it that we don’t normally bother to treat a lot of these people, or…?

I don’t interact with the antivaxx ‘movement’ or with their acolytes.

Given that their crime is failing in their duty to the community, do we not all have a duty to the community to try and win them round?

…then what is your method for de-Trumping a Brexiting Antivaxxer? (Trust me, 90% of the time they are all three.

Not in my experience, quite the opposite. The ones I know are intelligent, educated, caring, gentle left-wingers.

how much time have you got….?

As much as it takes.

rather not see them catch covid and potentially have long term effects from it or even die from it because I don’t want that for anyone

Neither do I. That’s why I’m here. And why I think it better to reason with them, and level with them, rather than just shutting them down with “science” or “idiot”, however daft we consider their position.

But I never said the paint wouldn’t work…

But forget the dodgy analogies. Someone who attributes their child’s autism or their own autoimmune disorder to vaccination two, five, ten years earlier is never going to view nine months’ safety data as equivalent, however many people were tested.

It might make no difference, but it is not the same.

Hope so👍

convincing the sceptics … Is it someones job to do this?

Yes. Against expectations, relying on random people slagging off anti-vaxxers on obscure internet forums hasn’t had the desired results, so the government has allocated a budget of £29.6m for a new task force to change their minds scientifically.

having spent some time in the coatings industry, your anology is shite.

I don’t want to paint myself into a corner so I will bow to your greater experience and get my coat…

HNY

It’s like arguing that someone who’s been making blue paint for 200 years wouldn’t have the first clue how to make green paint.

No, it’s like arguing that someone who made green paint for the first time a year ago doesn’t know for certain it’ll stick to my house for ten years just because their blue paint does.

Dulux (science-based too I imagine) make that kind of promise, and have you ever known their paint stick that long? It might do in a laboratory but it doesn’t on my house.

But what I was actually arguing was that if you’ve been making blue paint for ten years and green paint for one year, you shouldn’t claim that you have exactly the same level of experience of both paints. You don’t, and people might not trust you on other things either if you do.

And it is a fact, however much you try to deny it. It was first administered to a human this year, not ten years ago.

So I don’t think this is a good approach to convincing the sceptics. Trust me: I am very much on the front line.

Ticks as well as midges and gingers?!

Maybe not then…

Thanks. TCW is very tame, so that’s good to hear. I’ll have to come up and blast the WHW some time.

The times on it seem pretty quick but the guy in the video wasn’t exactly doing it under ITT rules.

Thank you to Mcckruiskeen most recently and others who have replied helpfully and amicably.

Just to recap:

I am not an anti-vaxxer and I am not opposed to the new vaccines, so I don’t need convincing of science.

I simply wanted to understand the depth of feeling about anti-vaxxers.
This seems to boil down to “they kill people”.
I asked how many, but nobody has been able to tell me.

I have also made the mistake of questioning aspects of this ill-feeling, and some of the arguments made, and largely been shut down.
Ironically, this is exactly how I have been treated my anti-vaxxers when attempting to engage with them.

I would just say that you can never, ever, know another person or their life or circumstances, and should never rush to judge them.
Which sounds a bit Christian, which I’m not, but there we go.

Happy New Year!

Last word from me. As an anti vaxxer, you’re either complicit in causing unnecessary death, or you’re too stupid to realise you’re complicit in causing unnecessary death, chose which one of those applies to you.

Last word to you: Please read what people say before slagging them off. It doesn’t get more unequivocal than “I am not an anti-vaxxer”.

‘if it’s not taken 10 years it can’t be safe’ nonsense. I find it amazing that someone capable of dribbling in a straight line (and you clearly are) is so behind the curve

But I haven’t ever said it can’t be or isn’t safe.

Most drugs end up having ten years for late side-effects to show up. This one has had nine months. That is a difference.

That’s not to say that this is a problem, or that the vaccine isn’t safe, or that people shouldn’t take it.

But it is a difference. Acknowledging and addressing that is more likely to reassure a sceptic than just repeating over and over it’s the same, it’s the same, it’s the same.

Have you left the traps alone for a week or two after setting them? They normally take a while to go near them.

How does the West Highland Way compare to the Trans Cambrian Way?

Easier or harder physically? More or less technical?

not a fact. In order to be passed this vaccine had to have the same patient exposure as every other vaccine has.

No. Most drugs have ten or more years of data behind them.

TBH I don’t think you’re really interested. Take it or don’t take it, I don’t care, just try not to convince anyone else not too, as Mr Thatcher once said. “Better to remain silent and let them think you’re an idiot, then open your mouth and remove all doubt” and right now I think you’re as dumb as ****.

You’re now taking the anti-vaxxer approach to debate. Come in with a fixed idea and ignore and ridicule everything that is said, even when it hasn’t been said. And get downright unpleasant.

If you want to call me names, please first go back and read everything I have written and fact-check whether I have said what you currently think I have said.

Just a little PSA, for certain people on here. Please read it carefully, from top to bottom, then, if you have any concerns about the information provided, I’m sure the grownups on here, like TiRed, will happily help you with your homework.

You should probably name names to be fair.

The thread’s been running for a while, but I can’t remember any anti-vaxxers having contributed?

The argument that the vaccine has been properly tested, yes it has, no doubt about it, trust me I’m a scientist, no corners have been cut, it’s gone through everything every other drug goes through, you’re an idiot if you don’t believe it, etc, is a bit weak though and doesn’t really do anyone any favours. They’d do better to say “needs must”. The caveat that long-term side-effects are highly unlikely isn’t very scientific. The vaccines haven’t been tested for as long as other drugs, fact. So there is a lie or at least a twisting here, and it will only feed the fire.

Why is it so high in Wales (relatively speaking), and why haven’t their tighter restrictions had the expected effect?

They haven’t been much tighter and hardly anyone has stuck to them

Don’t worry, it’s individual.

Although I can’t find a pulse at all right now, which might be a bad sign.

Have you considered putting your constructs to witty use?

Sadly it is my civic duty not to undermine the stereotype to which I have been assigned.

+1 for three-speed bikes

12 really isn’t necessary on an mtb.

And nearly everything you need a 50 or even 36 tooth cog to ride up will be quicker and easier to walk up anyway.

Speaking as a racer.

P7, have you considered putting your wit to constructive use?

I went from 32:16 to 32:17 on 26” wheels due to a purchasing error

FTR: No I didn’t, I went from 34:17 to 34:16. You can see how I made a purchasing error…

I went from 32:16 to 32:17 on 26” wheels due to a purchasing error last year and haven’t noticed any difference, so I guess it’s not that big an issue really.

You just have to see what suits you and your riding. It’s cheap and easy enough to change.

Those ratios suit me in hilly Wales, but then I’m an xc whippet and if I have to walk sometimes then so be it. They can be frustrating on the flat so I avoid flat as much as possible. But then 38:11 on my geared bike often isn’t enough on the flat either, and short flat rests are an important part of recovering from the workout on steep climbs.

I would recommend an oval chain ring to help with traction on out-of-the-saddle offroad climbs. And bar ends 🙂

I love singlespeeding. I should do it more.

Thank you p7eaven for dissecting my post in such detail. It’s really helped me see where I’m going wrong. I fully understand now that you can’t bring yourself to answer any of those hazy indirect rhetorical questions in my last post. What was I thinking?

Enduro racing in 2021? There’s optimism for you!

Having managed just FoD at the beginning and Greythwaite at the end of this year, I’ll take whatever I can get and be very grateful.

I imagine the Welsh and Scottish events are least likely to happen due to the more cautious approach here?

Out of interest, was there a surge in cases at Greythwaite after all those hours waiting at the top of stage 2 breathing all over those queuing further down the hill? Or was being outside enough to stay safe?

again, maybe it would help if you quoted directly the portion of a post which gave you this ‘message’

No specific post; the consensus. So it’s been dressed up as “making social benefits dependent on vaccination”, but when those benefits include entering shops and using public transport, you are effectively making it compulsory, unless you plan to put these people on reservations.

What do you want to know that hasn’t already been said?

Not sure if any of my questions have been answered directly. But now you’re asking:

Why don’t you want compulsory vaccination?

If you don’t want compulsory vaccination, or think it is necessary, why the outrage when a few people don’t get vaccinated?

How many people do the unvaccinated actually kill?

How is not getting vaccinated a worse crime than spending money on our bikes rather than saving lives in the developing world?

So if vaccination should be compulsory in the UK, why isn’t it?

Not one person in this thread has said that it should be, or needs to be. Have they?

Really?! That’s certainly the message I got from it all…

Why don’t you want compulsory vaccination then?

If you don’t want everyone vaccinated, and you don’t think it necessary for everyone to be vaccinated, why are you so upset that some people don’t get vaccinated?