Well if you go with anything else they direct you to casualty🤷‍♂️

Seriously, though, there must be a fair proportion of trivial things?

Won’t most of those coughs and colds and rashes and grazes and vague aches and pains have cleared up by now?

(Oops, crossed post. Thanks for the insight, Nickc.)

You are making a huge assumption that your demands on the NHS in the last year are in some way representative for other people, therein lies your first error in “logic”.

There will be all the usual ailments needing GPs’ attention.

Less various infections that have been reduced due to social distancing etc.

Less me (and possibly others too) not going to the GP for minor stuff.

Less the dead (many of whom needed lots and lots of care).

Less STW members doing no gnar.

Plus vaccinations.

That, to me, spelt reduced demand.

But it turns out people phoning up with trivial stuff they couldn’t be bothered to queue for before is outweighing that. Which is a surprise, and quite shocking.

Throw into the mix that counterintuitively it’s probably easier to “see” a GP these days, we’re mostly doing online telephone or video conferences with patients, so the barriers that normally keep folk away have been removed.

That’s an interesting point. I hadn’t thought of that.

Why is that, nickc? Everyone I know is staying away from the NHS as much as possible.

You continue to only look at this your way, other opinions are out there, some more realistic and considered than your frequent petulant outbursts. You consistently present your opinions as facts but refuse to yield your position when called out on their inaccuracies. You know what this behaviour resembles don’t you?

You are digging yourself a troll-shaped hole there. Every time someone shouts troll, I see a closed mind refusing to engage with something that doesn’t fit their narrative.

Are you aware that the time being vaccinated as you call it, is just the bit where they stick the needle in your arm? There is a whole lot of other work going on at the same time that you’re not party to.

Although both my brain cells are currently busy transmitting data to Mr Gates, yes I am aware of that. Are you aware that the admin etc around the consultations and treatments I listed as not having had would dwarf that? My point stands. My personal health care burden has been a fraction of what it would have been.

They’ve got quite a substantial backlog to get through, so no, the GPs and medical staff are not twiddling their thumbs waiting for punters to arrive

Did I say that? But what backlog would surgeries have? Much of the hospital backlog will not materialise either due to people dying or getting better.

What is this absenteeism you are referring to? Please provide some context

I mean staff off with Covid.

If surgeries are in fact busier than normal, then I would be very interested in learning why. Which is why I raised the issue in the first place. Logic suggests to me that demand must be down.

I think your 30s is way underestimated too, but then I don’t really understand your point. Are you suggesting this hasn’t been a massive effort and that the NHS aren’t really that busy?

First, 150,000 dead are no longer visiting surgeries. Second, I would otherwise have had three GP consultations, two prescriptions, one referral, a scan, a consultant, maybe some treatment – but actually spent less than a minute being vaccinated. I doubt I am the only one not to seek treatment I would otherwise have sought.

This would suggest surgeries are quieter than normal even with vaccinations to do.

Pulling the other way would be absenteeism, but it shouldn’t be much of a problem now that the virus has gone right down.

And quite how that is trolling, I don’t know.

haha, like the thought of “getting back” to our own work. We’re running vaccination sites “as well as” doing our own work. I’m a nurse and a HCA down today as they’re out vaccinating. Tomorrow I loose a couple of admin staff and a doctor.

Shouldn’t you all have time on your hands now there are so many fewer frail and elderly left?

Anecdotal, I know, but I’ve not bothered the NHS with three things I normally would have over the past year, and my vaccination took all of 30 seconds. Extrapolate that and…

Getting married

Are we not at or near a stage where everyone in these deprived urban pockets has had exposure to the virus even if they haven’t been vaccinated?

And with most people elsewhere vaccinated, why should it ever take hold and become a third wave?

Barring some ninja mutant, I can’t get my head around why it won’t just gradually fizzle out now as the population becomes more immune.

And I know we don’t know how long immunity will last, but surely it doesn’t have to be that long the way cases are falling.

Herd immunity happens when enough of a population has protection against an infection, thus stopping it from spreading.
World Health Organization (WHO) experts have estimated that at least 65%-70% of a population need vaccination coverage before herd immunity is reached.
Mr Leshem said herd immunity was the “only explanation” for Israel’s continued fall in cases as more restrictions were lifted.
“There is a continuous decline despite returning to near normalcy,” he said.
“This tells us that even if a person is infected, most people they meet walking around won’t be infected by them.”

From BBC. So why is herd immunity rejected as a possibility on here?

Exactly, PJay. In rural Wales nobody at all has it. With a fairly effective vaccine, and sensible precautions, it should be possible to keep on top of it.

If you don’t get infected, you can’t pass it on. So that reduces transmission.

Good point, duh!

Surely with an R persistently below 1 you just keep getting fewer and fewer cases until it’s gone?

Thanks Theotherjonv.

I think I was having an early morning senior moment. I read it as reducing transmission to other people. I don’t get how you would work that out.

But reducing infections that much is great news, especially given that it’s basically gone away here now anyway. With some sensible precautions, it shouldn’t come back at all. Makes me wonder how this third wave is going to happen.

That’s very encouraging. How do they know the reduction in cases is due to the vaccine rather than just the general decline in cases?

Well then it is your civic duty to report him for the common good.

Sounds like homeopathy

Can you explain your thought process here? As it didn’t sound anything of the sort to me.

It was a joke…

Even independent thinkers can have a sense of humour.

Sounds like homeopathy

Cardiff and Vale NHS are now offering vaccines to the over 30s. Remarkable

Labour government, butt

The standard argument why the unvaccinated haven’t already been wiped off the face of the Earth by measles etc, is that they piggyback off everyone else’s sacrifice and so benefit from herd immunity.

With the Covid vaccines not conferring this herd immunity, we can presumably expect to see the unvaccinated die out pretty quickly, thus posing an ever decreasing risk to the rest of humanity.

So are a few no-shows really a problem?

Queues and crowds of people around JD Sports and Primark across the country already. Not to sound snobby – although it does – this shows the demographic we are dealing with that’d rather risk Covid over the latest discounted trainers or some cheap clothes.

I’m sure there are queues outside posh Chelsea boutiques too.

What is wrong with going shopping? It’s no different to going to a supermarket, plus hardly any cases, masks, vaccines, distancing etc.

It’s not risking Covid, it’s getting on with life.

In case you hadn’t noticed, said plebs have been working right through the lockdowns anyway.

I can’t wait to go to Primark later once I’ve finished my shift.

have you looked at the economic impact on Sweden?

Swedish economy is in very good shape actually.

(Just saying, if we want to be evidence-based.)

I consider your posts on here as deliberate and malicious misinformation.

That’s overly harsh. It strikes me as a genuinely held opinion with which you happen to disagree.

It’s a shame that mutual respect isn’t part of the rules for this particular forum.

Curly, the comparison with Sweden isn’t ideal. I’ve lived there and they’re not like us. Personal space, geographical space, self-control, etc.

Surely the lockdown argument is moot now that we’re about to exit our last one. Shops reopening on Monday here in Wales.

If they don’t work, we’ll see cases shoot up, no?

don’t try and make out that only enlightend people like yourself called out that this incredibly rare issue might occur.

Absolutely not. Sarcasm noted though. That has been my problem all along. I’m a scientist* and you’re not, so I will play the man not the ball.

*Not all the scientists on here, I hasten to add.

Theothertjonv: I agree entirely. It’s always been the behaviour on here from some that I have a problem with, not the vaccine. I had some doubts about the vaccine, yes, but did some research, listened to people who seemed worth listening to*, and decided I should have it to do my bit, especially after the virus killed my best friend. I wasn’t able to convince the ex, but that was always a long shot.

*Including a couple on here. Thank you.

CountZero: I’m sorry for your loss.

Kelvin, that’s either a straw man or a red herring.

What’s making people look silly?

Their arrogance.

Those who saw fit to belittle anyone who had doubts or questions about whether the vaccine’s short test period was enough to pick up possible side-effects are looking a little silly now that this new side-effect is emerging.

Others who were more measured will continue to attract respect.

If you do Facebook then there is a page called Brechfa Trail Updates that the local NRW woodland manager runs.

Well actually it’s me…

I can confirm it’s not worth riding the Red as half of it is closed, but the rest are all good to go.

What’s your alternative approach chrispo? If you’re rejecting vaccination how do you as an individual carry on with life? How should wider society approach this?

I’m not rejecting vaccination. I have already taken one for the team. I was originally questioning the blind faith in the official line on here, and now I’m just calling out the bullies for what they are. Yes, I know it’s pointless, but it has given me a certain satisfaction.

There’s an uptake number I believe. Probably best you go look that up. That will tell you what percentage of offers were not, err, taken up

I mean specifically for people who have actively refused the vaccine, not including people who haven’t taken it due to other conditions or just didn’t turn up for some reason. I mean the heaving masses of anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists who were set to bring about the imminent demise of mankind not too long ago. It’s making some people here look a little silly now.

You might trust your wife completely (didn’t you say ex wife before?) and so trust her evidence but I not knowing who you are talking about, I can’t give her the same credibility as Prof Whitty, or JVT, or the EMA or MHRA

I don’t and I didn’t, which is why I sought other opinions, and she wasn’t but now she is. The government and the NHS and the drug companies have just as much of an axe to grind as the anti-vaxxers. They’re all very capable of using the same data to support very different positions. So it probably pays to remain sceptical about all of them. Which is where this all started.

Meanwhile – the other side don’t have to worry about such annoyances as peer review or scrutiny. They don’t even have to show their working; “I can’t say who but I have a mate who really knows her stuff, and she’s extensively researched this and I trust her when she says it’s all down to space lizards” – retweeted a few thousand times to people inclined to believe that – how do you counter it?

But unless you yourself have personally read, understood and analysed all the underlying science, and I mean all of it, you too are leaping to conclusions based on blind faith.

So when you’re married to that person, and they do have workings, and they don’t blame it on something patently silly like Bill Gates or lizards, what do you do?

Well, ask STW, obvs.

Are there any figures for how many people offered the vaccine have turned it down?

(And anyone who says ‘what about bacon’ is a dick :0P )

Oops, didn’t see that earlier before posting “Bacon”. I should elaborate: greasy bacon in hotel room breakfast buffets put me off eating meat. Brought home how gross the stuff is. Cooked right, bacon and most other types of meat are heavenly, but it’s still basically the same shite going into your body.

TheotherJonV: thanks

And yeah “massive backtracking”!? No – just scientific method… 🙄

No, I meant backtracking by the people on here who have been so aggressive in accusing any doubters of being selfish conspiracy theorists but are now thinking maybe they or their family would rather not have the AZ vaccine themselves now that it might not be as safe as the science showed.

And this isn’t an “I told you so” so much as a big “**** you” to those who had a go on this and other threads, right through from “show us the evidence for your common sense or shut up” to “shut up troll” and “your wife is a dumb ****”.

Apply in Welsh. Always gets processed quicker.

Massive backtracking on AZ safety now.

No doubt the dumb **** and their dumb **** ex-wives who should have put blind faith in the UK regulator a month ago when the message was “take it” (because UK science knew better) are still dumb **** not to blindly trust the regulator now that it’s saying the opposite (because UK science didn’t).

Maybe it’s time for some of you to open your minds a bit… it clearly isn’t black and white.

How could you spend 55 years in Russia and not pick up a bit of the lingo?!

theotherjonv

OK, let’s just agree to disagree.

Name one legitimate reason that isn’t “ignorance” or “wilful defiance”?

Healthy people refusing a vaccine because they either don’t understand and won’t listen to science, or think they’re Wolfie Smith, put at risk vulnerable people who cannot have the vaccine. It really is that cut & dried.

No, it isn’t cut and dried. You may think so, but it really isn’t.

A legitimate reason? How about “drawing a different conclusion from the same data”?

My ex, who is highly intelligent, has done endless research over many years and almost certainly knows ten times more about this subject than you do, will not have any vaccines or have any given to my children. This pre-dates Wakefield.

I don’t think she’s an idiot or a dumb ****. Nor do I think she should be ostracised.

Nobody has a monopoly on being “right”.

So are you going to comment on the links or the points made then? How do they support what you said?

OK, then. Because one has the headline “vaccine is safe, go get it” and the other says “flu symptoms in fewer than one in ten”. Even if we classify the flu-like side-effects reported in this thread as milder than flu, and so as affecting “more than one in ten”, that’s a rather misleading statistic in my book if in reality it’s a whole lot more than one in ten, which is the impression I get looking around me.

Straw men: “vaccine is untested / unsafe”, “worthless, conspiracy theory bollocks”

I’m sorry, but that’s just not true

What your practice is doing sounds great, well done. But why does the NHS site you linked to have to say “some people may” rather than “most people will” have side-effects?

So that’s my point. Better, more honest communication at headline level might be more convincing, whatever it may say in the small print. It’s being dumbed down too much.

But I said all this yesterday and provided links and you did not comment.
Then you ‘accused’ me of being ironic for posting the how to sharpen your critical thinking link. What was point 3 in that, I wonder?

I’m sorry. If I addressed everything everyone says it’d take over the thread. It was only an off-the-cuff remark in the first place.

But thank you for your links, which both support what I said in the first place 😉

If you want to lead by example on intellectual empathy, how about you address what I actually said rather than that poor straw man?

I’m still open to being convinced that your proposition, that this vaccine is untested / unsafe and that it is some kind of propaganda led initiative (for what benefit, I’m not sure?) but despite several requests you have not brought your evidence and your actions go against your pronounced opinions.

But I haven’t pronounced any such opinions. I’m just saying that it’s no wonder some people won’t have the vaccine when the propaganda machine is so black and white and refuses to acknowledge the existence of grey. The prevalence of side-effects, however minor, seems higher than advertised. The fact that blood clots are a concern for scientific experts in some countries but dismissed out of hand in others doesn’t help the cause either. None of this will reassure anyone.

Deciding not to be vaccinated does not make anyone “anti vax”

Of course, they’re demonstrably big fans of it.

( I know in this case they are preaching not to but it’s a label being thrown around to make folk feel superior)

Don’t talk shite. You think people don’t want others to put their lives at risk out of a sense of superiority? “Look at me, all superior with my ‘not wanting to die’ attitude!” That’s the stupidest thing I’ve read on this thread so far and it’s a thread discussing people who refuse to be vaccinated so it’s a pretty **** high bar.

If they don’t want it I see no reason to stop kids visiting.

I mean, the kids might wind up killing their grandparents. So there’s always that. Which is their own fault, but the kids will have to live with that guilt for the rest of their lives.

There choice.

It is. They’re choosing to be selfish ****. Welcome to a free country.

It’s the same as these **** roasters walking around supermarkets with their beaks hanging out over the top of their masks or, as seems to be becoming increasingly common, pulling them down to have a conversation. Y’know, right when you need them the most.

Also, it’s “their”. If you want to live here you should probably take time to learn the language.

And this guy used to be a moderator on here? That explains a lot.

Excommunicating your grandparents is way over the top in my opinion.

Everyone calling for that, please take a step back…

Even if they get vaccinated there’s still a significant chance they could get it and pass it on.

Where is the love in the room?