“Tool steel” workers are the key I think. One of our former members got some made in mild steel but they didn’t last all that long. Particularly not in the hands of some of our more “enthusiastic” volunteers ;-)

Fortunately rock isn’t an issue for use, it’ll all hard packed gravel with the odd big stone, hence something better than a Croc and slightly lighter than a mattock would be great.

If you need a good groundbreaker this isn’t bad. We have one but it’s less useful at Stainburn given all the aforementioned rock (sorry, it’s not “going spare” ;-) ) And of course, it’ll only break the ground, not shift it.

Might have to give Jafco a ring. Also found these:

http://www.lasher.co.za/show_products_full.php?id=260&product_category=Agricultural

Sadly located in Africa!

Ninfan – cheers, was looking for plastic shafts but those might be an acceptable alternative. We’re still using one that IMBA gave SingletrAction when it started up, I think that was nearly 12 years ago. Needs a good sharpen ;-)

If you do get anything from Get Digging please mention us. He’s been very generous with discounts and I’d like him to know we were recommending him. I find his stuff much better quality and durability than Silverline. If you can afford quality tools (and will look after them) they’re usually worth it, IMO.

I find this one to be a great general purpose tool:

It has its limits but when you’re off for a wander, don’t want to lug lots of tools and might need to tweak something / general maintenance its spot on for me.

The other good thing about the Azadas on Get Digging is they’re available in different weights. If you’re lucky enough to be able to afford a couple and don’t have to worry about carrying them to work sites then it’s easy to match the right one to the job. Nothing like the bone jarring vibrations of a heavy azada contacting a buried rock ;-)

If anyone wants to try them out we have dig days first Sunday every month at Stainburn. Petrol costs might be cheaper than an expensive shipment from the States ;-)

I’ve found cheap chillingtons to be bad for that. When new we whack the heads in then soak for a couple of days, helps a lot. Get Diggings versions come on good, larger diameter shafts so fairly comfortable. Long handled tools in general are just much comfort IME.

Let me know before you order (now and in future). Just about to blow a fistful of club funds on tools for several sites. Cheap tools just generally don’t last.

I’ve used cheap and lightweight chillingtons from Silverline before. The ones I’ve linked to come in a variety of weights and the heavier ones aren’t “twangy”. I’m wondering how different a Prohoe would be in reality. proo

Drop me an email if you decide to buy. Always keen to try new tools and delivery (or tax) shared might help.

Chairman@singletraction.co.uk

Tried here for azadas?

http://www.get-digging.co.uk/tools.htm

Really good quality tools. Chap has also given SingletrAction some generous discounts :-)

If anyone’s found a McLeod supplier in UK / affordable I’d love the details. The proverbial rocking horse …..

Same for Pulaski / fireman’s axes?

Try Gil at the Cycle Shed. I think he prints them for Mike.

Get Digging – Azadas (personal favourite is a pick version) in all sorts of weights and blade shapes.

http://www.get-digging.co.uk/tools.htm

For digging a long handled fibre glass shovel like this:

The guy who runs the site has been very generous in discounting tools for us. A top chap and great service.

Right tools for the job and local conditions mean there’s no single answer IMO.

Good post too, thanks for sharing 8-)

Edit – Y.O.Y. aren’t there any UK based suppliers / manufacturers of McLeods?

What the others said. Support in any form is great 8-)

Another member would be lovely though, even if not “active” at trailbuilding days because more members can be useful in certain situations to show we’re a representative group that riders/people support. Up to you of course.

I’ll ping FC an email about trees after a look at the weekend.

Some income from an honesty box or the like would be nice although it would probably go to FC rather than SingletrAction (although we all work together to a decent degree). Unfortunately I doubt it would last given the remote and secluded nature of the car park.

Try your second letter, maybe polite persistence will win them over.

However:

So basically asking for permission is pointless. Time to start digging at 2am when nobodies around.

It’s not pointless but sometimes you have to accept that some people will say no, sometimes. You can either choose to respect this and move on or do something cheeky.

There also has to be some recognition of the inter-group competition / confliction that occurs. No point hiding from it.

An example – at one of the XC WC’s held at Dalby CTC staff were asked to leave (or something of that sort) by British Cycling.

Hey ho, it’s not surprising this sort of thing happens sometimes but it’s still a shame and a bad thing for “us” in general.

I heard their spokeman this morning on Radio4 talking about potholes. His voice made me envision the stereotypical dweeb persona. Enough to put me right off membership permanently. Not that what he had to say was wrong in any way, but it’s bad enough working in IT (errr computaclub) without adding to the image. Slightly beyond that and yer into running around the woods with wooden swords and 30-sided dice.

:face palm:

If you’re serious then the issue is surely about you, not CTC (or any other cycling organisation).

Many years ago I contacted Hampshire County Council to see if I could join their Access Forum. I considered myself as having a good knowledge of Rights of Way in the County and would be an asset for mountain bikers. Sadly, I did not receive the courtesy of a reply.

I appreciate that might be frustrating. However, if you just got in touch once (or even twice) then you might not be suited or have the perseverance to work on this stuff. It almost always takes ages and has big tedious stretches but that’s just the stuff you have to get through to reach the end (which might also not be exactly what “you” wanted). Dealing with most LA’s, big public bodies is almost always like this, whatever you’re talking to them about.

There’s all sorts of reasonable explanations for no response and equally there’s all sorts of reasons, though not so excusable, but perfectly, humanly explicable that might account for it. I’ve “not responded” to lots of people who have got in touch with me over the years; I forget, don’t have the answer, the time, the inclination, the opportunity. Most reasonable people will then email with a polite reminder (they can be impolite, but then I lose interest in them) or they ring, or they try a colleague.

CG – if you don’t want to support CTC then don’t, it’s a free world and all that.8-). Personally, I think the majority of what they do is good and they are worth supporting because it’ll probably benefit me as well as other folks, and I feel that’s a good thing.

I’ve just tried to tell about my positive experiences and counter some of the negative / beardy weirdy stuff. IME this is singularly not what CTC is like. Other people in other situations and at different times may have had contrary experiences. Hey ho.

However, it’s good to see how many, seemingly well-informed, people have popped up with positive examples.

IIRC Aston Hill was developed by, amongst others the Warby’s, particularly Ian. At eh outset it was OK with FC but as is often the way things became trickier and relations less positive as time went on. I believe in part there were some pretty unrealistic expectations from FC of the Warby’s who were “operating” it at the time.

For quite a while (c2006/2007) it looked certain that the place would be closed. In the end Ian and the CTC managed to set up the current operating system which keeps FC happy, lets ASton Hill exist as a place to ride and allows the operators to keep going financially speaking.

I suspect you could get different shades of this story from other parties involved and if anyone can be bothered to Google it more than me then you might get a little bit more, but I think that’s the general ghist.

In nearly a decade of dealing with land managers (be they FC, local authority or other) I have always found the general pace of the organisation or system glacial (for various legitimate and illegitimate reasons), the need to box-tick unavoidable and the drain on patience almost unbearable. However, it is irrelevant once access is grnated or a trail is built, because once it’s done that’s usually it, you’re in and there’s riding there for all.

Fair enough not everyone is suited to it but I do think it makes it worthwhile supporting an organisation who has people that are prepared to plod on with this sort of thing because our riding world will be all the richer for it in the end.

I’m not trying to say everyone should do it, lots don’t have the inclination or patience for it but I don’t get the negative vibe of certain posts towards an organisation that will do it on cyclists’ behalf. Unless you’ve been a member I think you’re probably in a poor position to really criticise a group, whether it’s CTC, BC, IMBA UK or whatever. Not least because so much goes on that just can’t be got over on websites or magazines. If you’re not “within” an organisation you stand far less chance of knowing / understanding what all this is.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/great-day-for-pump-track-ride

I’ve had a bit to do with CTC. They’ve worked with us (SingletrAction) on a couple of trailbuilding projects (Thackley and St Ives). I’ve come across Ian Warby a few times in dealing with IMBA UK and various things.

I’ve always found them great and far from the old fart / pipe smoking / fusty image mentioned in other responses. As a group we’re affiliated to them, in part because an excellent local contact (Ginny Leonard) does us a great deal on the rate and I think they are a good organisation doing, in the round, good things for riders.

At Leeds Cycle Show Ginny and crew had a small loop track set up with balance bikes etc which was cool for the little ones.

In some of my dealings with BC I’ve found them to be too commercially orientated (wanting to charge us as a volunteer organisation for stand space at the WC’s – others may not agree it should have been free but hey ho). On the other hand I’ve dealt with a local rep’ who did some really good groundwork for development at St Ives (Dan) and their commisaire chap was a great help visiting site and helping make sure we were OK for insurance to hold races at Stainburn.

IMO CTC is a bit more grass roots / less cash / less branded / less centrally funded an organisation compared to BC. BC’s had much more money and has ridden a pretty big wave associated with the Olympics and sports development. Be interesting to see if it continues. I wonder if CTC aren’t at the forefront of peoples minds as there aren’t so many liveried cars and banners etc ;-)

IMBA UK always seems to have struggled and I suspect it’s in its death throes. I think it would be good if whatever was left of it teamed with CTC or BC so not all of the good work it did is lost. I say this as someone who put in time and effort with them and was always impressed with individual’s dedication and knowledge. It just doesn’t seem to have flourished, more’s the pity.

Lee McCormack’s $10 eBook has some good information in it, even if you’re not building a pump track (http://www.leelikesbikes.com/ebook-welcome-to-pump-track-nation)

Others have linked to the IMBA stuff which is OK. It’s all general guidance though so application on a particular site can need a bit of common sense / judgement of appropriateness.

Some new links to things I haven’t seen before too, thanks Asterix.

Ian Warby did a few articles / clips of trail maintenance on a website. Google should sort you out unless anyone else can link to them?

Regarding the ethos of unilaterally deciding to change a trail – it’s a tricky one. One man’s pleasure is another man’s poison. You have to be sensitive to this, within reason. Is there anyone else doing similar stuff or an established group already? It should go without saying that adding something which could catch people out is to be avoided, but you’d be surprised what such features might be (i.e. innocuous stuff). You have to be able to understand how a trail works / is likely to be ridden and how any changes might interact with that.

Getting involved with a local trail group is the best way to learn about this stuff. Only so much can be learnt from books, working with others who are more experienced is good.

You can do masses by hand, by yourself, especially on trails that stay a bit “below the radar”. It’s all good. TBH, a good pair of secateurs will improve loads of trails of the slightly cheeky variety.

Sometimes though folks build dedicated trails to attract the masses and I figure that’s where the OP was coming from.

8-)

Water can be a trail killer but the solutions don’t have to be extensive and expensive. Stick to basic IMBA guidelines about trail grade not exceeding 15% of slope (IIRC) and cross fall of 3 to 5% to shed water and many problems can be avoided.

If your trail route goes against these “rules” then assess and decide how / what to compromise. Landscapes and drainage patterns change over time as do trails for all sorts of reasons. Multiple solutions depending on location and particular problem.

IME stone is the major cost and contractors uplift / risk allowances are the main cost driver. That in large part is driven by client expectations.

Have seen rates for technical features (either on trail or in skills areas) of between £50 to £250/m.

Anyone remember when Lee Quarry got built and they used a helicopter to drop in materials – bet that wasn’t cheap ;-)

Walking excavators also expensive but can do a verey different job compared to regular plant. So many factors to consider.

Foound an old email from someone in FC – standard trail where contractor supplies all stone (i.e. brought in, not site won), nominal 1000 width, reducing to c.500 as edges creep in and trail ages plus “normal” drainage was £15 in 2008. Call it £20 for 2013, mebe?

You can build great trails for a lot less with volunteers, a half decent site and ability to plan / design.

Plant can help but usually you have to get in with it and get out without wrecking what you’ve built, this all adds cost and time. Low key volunteers can get in areas much easier and with good skills can build some unique and interesting features.

Roughest stab in the world £15 to 25/m. Not including decent features, just bog standard trail. Don’t think that rate will include for prelim’s or “consultancy” / fees.

Think one FC manual is OGB37 (IIRC) but it’s a dirge.

Generally speaking; concept sketched out, OPS1 process within FC round various departments, refine and amend following OPS1, plan / design, tender, appoint, construct, supervise, complete, test and commission then open. Some or all of these stages can happen simultaneously or overlap. Assumes no plannign permission required which it often is, particularly if the usual ancillaries (visitor centre, bike wash, cafe etc etc) are lumped into the project so FC can harvest revenue.

There’s a whole murky stage before the approval in principle about whether a trail ought to be built is made, within FC somewhere. I expect there’s lots of political / opportunity / personal interest factors that come into play that can kybosh a project before it even sees the light of day / gets deigned by FC.

There was an article in one of the mags about one of the Scottish FC guys (Andy Barlow?) about this sort of thing. Can’t remember when.

Healing vibes.

Camelbak Volt and Charge are similar (more weight centred lower in the back, around lumbar belt etc) I believe. Not used one, just repeating what I’ve read / heard.

E.g.

http://www.merlincycles.com/bike-shop/camelbaks/camelbaks-1/camelbak-summer-range/camelbak-charge-10-lr-2013-free-fresh-reservoir-filter-kit.html

Have Wingnuts myself, great packs.

Have a look at “rolling grade dips” or “knicks” in BUilding Better Trails by IMBA. Might be of use.

Singular Gryphon.

29r, drop bar’d, ugly as sin at first glance but rather good fun, IMO.

wherever there are formal, permitted man made trails, there are a group of pixies who maintain and improve them

If you call me a “pixie” I’m going to take a mattock to you.

No offence, like ;-)

Sportspursuit are doing the Oregon (not bike specific) for C.£200 with UK mapping.

Got a secondhand Cotic Hemlock in small, open to reasonable offers. Email me if interested.

I’m sensing the Nexus sprocket is a key component ;-), luckily I think I have one.

Cheers all.

The spider is removable so I assume it’ll take an uno ring. I’m one (new) BB down so any info you’ve got would be appreciated, ta :-)

YOu can add a converter which slides onto the centre lock splines and then has 6 bolt fixings for the disc.

Shame about the raw finish, the images of it looked lovely but understandable that you want to avoid issues.

I thought the original purple was good and a deep, egg yolk yelow (seen some images of a custom one I think) would also be nice.

Seen nice shots of it in white which do look OK but not my choice.

“my” ghillie kettle is touring the digs with Dave, powering the volunteers. I Just can’t “give” enough ;-)

Plus me being a member through my subs isn’t really adding much cash to the fighting fund

It adds c.£50 more thatn they would have had as you are not already a member ;-) It also adds numbers and the value of CTC being able to say, in disucssions, we have XXX affiliated organisations which could add to their gravitas during meetings, negotiations or just helping to open doors. Difficult to measure but not to be under-estimated or dismissed.

Where’s my fr1ggin CTC members magazines going back to 2007 then Cheeky?

It’s available online and affiliation comes in different levels (I imagine), ours doesn’t include the mag ;-P

I would now have to pay into CTC

Not necessarily as STA are already affiliated to CTC (for a small, occassionally levied annual sub) and incidentally BC (but that’s to cover the next Chainless events).

Come on boy, you know all this ;-)

I wish everywhere had a rangerbill, I wonder who ours is?

There’s always Tony Lund and more locally Bob Thorp. But even with a like minded person in “authority” even they have to jump through myriad hoops.

I reckon it’s better than it was, but maybe just because that thought makes me more positive / happy and I don’t want to be sad ;-)

Senior bloke in RA was interviewed in a mag some years ago, iirc he wasn’t anti bike but he also wasn’t shared access.

I think CTC do more MTB stuff than may be obvious. Ian Warby does a lot and is specifically MTB. Think he’s been developing a volunteer trail builder training course. Stuff like that should be good. See the article I linked on page 2.

Sure, it’s roots are as the cycle touring club but I think MTB might be rather like snowboarding is/was to skiing. The combined usage and big increase in user numbers mean there’s really benefits from taking an approach that benefits both.

Think anyone can apply to be a CTC rep. More riders who have some MTB about them the better it’ll be for all of us in the end.

Cheers all. Having had a hunt around senditnow seems to take them and not be terribly expensive (£12 to £15). Any good/bad experiences?

I quite like CTC and not just because they namechecked SingletrAction loads in a recent article (http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/201305046-feature-making-tracks.pdf)

I suspect they’re probably the best bet for a co-ordinated MTB advocacy group at national level. AS well as them doing stuff it’s also about people finding a bit of stuff that they can do and then doing it. I quite liked Chipps recent editorial about “there’s no them to do trail tidying (or much else really) on behlaf of riders. Was a good point well made.

The lack of familiarity, confidence, expertise, perception issues, glacial pace of certain organisations etc all conspire to dampen the enthusiasm of the young-bucks (or even old) salts when it comes to trail or PROW issues. An inability to compromise or see matters from numerous perspectives, not just your own, are also obstacles to getting more trail done.

Don’t know how it all gets solved but just keep beavering away at bits and pieces as do mugboo, unkle, Paul and many others.

Of course, bloody volunteers falling out amongst themselves is a bit of a bugger as well ;-)

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