Tj, not to be antagonistic like geex but what high quality torque sensing mid drive do you have in mind? All the bafang ones I know of are cadence sensing (bbs02, bbshd) except their higher end Max series that only comes on prebuilt bikes since it needs frame modifications.

@endoverend it isn’t a road bike, full suspension mountain bike with losses in the belt and hub gears. It also isn’t the flat, rather a muddy/cobbled canal tow path with plenty of locks. It’s more like 150kg between 115kg me and the 30kg bike plus a laptop and locks. Lightly nobbled rock razor tyres in 2.35″. Position fairly upright. Average speed about 12mph. I’ve held 28mph on it before but that’s a real strain.

Now I’m curious if anyone has a bosch road bike with Kiox or nyon displays (both do this kind of tracking). They’d get some interesting numbers for comparison.

I’m not personally sure the numbers are correct because I have no way to verify them. It’s not as if I can replace bosch’s torque sensing cranks with my own and have the whole system still work. Knowing what the bike is like when the motor’s off (bosch mid drive so draggy, combined with rohloff hub gear, belt drive, full suspension and dual batteries for 30kg total weight) and how it comes alive when the motor’s cranked up, it may well be putting in hundreds of Watts. If it is though the batteries aren’t showing it, I consume about 250Wh doing both legs of the commute. Total ride time is about 1:15 so the average out of the motor must be about 200W, but how is that 75% of the effort if I’m also averaging 220W?

Let’s label this as further investigation required.

To counter the “you don’t get a workout on an ebike” argument, I cycled to work today on an ebike and the computer says I burnt roughly 450 kcal on the way in, 500 on the way back (hills). That’s over the course of 7 miles each way. It also says I put in about 25% of the effort and the motor put in 75% which given I was in turbo seems about right. It also says I averaged about 220W human output over both directions, a bit more when fighting the hills than not which I think isn’t too shabby for a workout. Side note I love having a computer with speedo, watt meter etc to get all this data out and I’m considering a Bluetooth heart monitor to extend the stats.

Now I could turn the motor off, and then I’d burn 2000 calories doing the same route because I’m supplying all the power. Then again that would probably kill me. No I’ll just gradually reduce the power mode as I lose weight.

I think I have ‘bluemels 75 U’ in 27.5″ on my bike and they look the business. I need to add a mud flap to the front to cover my BB.

I say I think because they were stock on my bike and the specs sheet only says “sks mudguards”.

It’s not the weight you’d notice but the loss of power due to efficiency. I’ll say now that I’ve never ridden one but I was in the market a while back and did plenty of research, ending up with a rohloff hub over a nuvinci.

The main problems that’ll affect MTB usage are weight, resistance due to efficiency loss and that the grip shifter could be better. Shifting is fairly stiff especially when shifting under load so some people break the plastic body of the shifter. Sometimes it slips under high load and needs holding in place. Even when it’s working it’s hard to get the precision to have an infinite range, you end up with a few go-to positions on the shifter.

Give it a go by all means since you have one already but there’s a reason these hubs are commonly paired with a mid-drive motor, it makes the efficiency not matter so much.

I need to wear prescription glasses so I ended up using an Abus Hyban+ helmet which has a visor, it’s been pretty good to me but the wind does creep in round the sides of the visor. It keeps the bugs out of my eyes, now I need to find something to keep them out of my mouth (bleugh).

Magura MT4s tend to be cheap, a quick Google shows them at chain reaction cycles for £60 but out of stock.

What if you use a lock big enough to stop bolt cropper attempts by not fitting in the jaws? Then the only way through is an angle grinder that’ll wake you up.

My friend Bob who looks nothing like me in a wig says that it’s liberating to use bus and cycle lanes where appropriate, then when they inevitably disappear for stretches of a 30mph dual carriageway (wtf city planners?) to be able to take the lane and keep pace with traffic. Bob’s bike likes to cruise at 20mph and it’s a very enjoyable speed but not quite enough to take the lane. Bob thinks you will enjoy your Shimano steps with a little extra on top. Just keep your gears and speed low when around pedestrians, generally don’t be a menace.

If it can fit in the jaws of a bolt cropper it can be cut. D-locks are generally the same hardened steel as chains so the same rules apply. A lot of the tests I’m seeing online use 24″ croppers which could be hidden in a coat but the really brazen thieves will use 48″ croppers, the ground, and their body weight to munch their way through any lock that’ll fit in the jaws.

The reason 16mm is recommended is that it won’t fit in the jaws of most croppers, including the 48″ ones and so is immune to that attack. Angle grinders change this by being able to cut through any thickness of material eventually.

Just checked on a “2012 Piaggio Typhoon 125cc” for £800 on ebay. Third Party Only costs £525/yr. If I age up and become 35 it’s £293/yr. That’s far more reasonable to the point where I’d actually consider it over an ebike. It could probably be cheaper if I had a garage for overnight parking or owned my home so could put in a ground anchor.

So the question then is what does a 28mph ebike have over a scooter or 15mph ebike? I guess they’re cheaper overall than a new electric scooter but there are plenty of examples that aren’t (looking at you Stromer, Riese and Muller).

“then insurance at a few hundred”

Try knocking your age down. I’m 25 with no CBT, if I got one today insurance is over a grand for a £3k electric scooter. That’s the reason I ride an ebike instead.

If insurance truly cost a few hundred, say £300/yr and city centre parking didn’t cost £20/day then I’d probably be all over a scooter.

Bosch mid drive by any chance? They’re draggier above the limit due to their small chain ring and internal gearing. If you ride a mid-drive with a normal sized chain ring the drag above the assistance limit is just normal heavy bike drag. Bosch have fixed this in 2020 motors.

*edit* oh Shimano Steps e6000? I’m surprised it feels that bad above the limit then.

I’m hoping riese and muller appears on this list but they’re not heavy on mountain bikes full suspension bikes. Guess I’ll find out when I file my first warranty claim.

” plenty of E-MTBs are bought and used as the bike equivalent of an SUV rather than for ‘mountain biking’ as such.”

Yo. Buying a full suspension ebike with suspended rack for comfort/commuting, that’s an SUV if ever there was one. Nearly bought a full suspension cargo bike but it wouldn’t fit in the work bike racks.

Seriously though I’m obese class 2 (there are no obese-r classes) and riding my acoustic bike is too much effort for me to do every day, I end up drenched with sweat and entirely inappropriate for an office environment so I just don’t do it. The few times I’ve done it with a rented ebike have been amazing. It’s knocked tens of minutes off my usually hour or so commute and I’ve arrived fresh as a daisy. If I want to put some effort in on the way home I still can, as evidenced by a recent ebike hire in the lakes. While on full assistance (to catch up with my wife who had given up halfway and was going back) I was dripping with sweat from a trip starting at the ferry crossing by Bowness, going up to High Wray, then on to Wray Castle and back again. It was great fun and not something I’d have ever been able/willing to tackle on an acoustic bike.

Are ebikes reaching a critical mass? I don’t think so, but I hope so, there are an awful lot of fat folk in the world who could do with fun exercise enabling for them. If it takes money to do so, so be it.

“is that using a standard plug”

Yeah, when chargers say 6A they mean 6A to the battery, so 6A at 36V in bosch’s case. As for current from the wall they’ll be drawing about 1A, well within the rating of a normal 13A wall plug.

It’s cars that need tens of kilowatts to charge and some funky plug interface.

Electric dirt bikes are a thing, e.g. The Sur Ron MX

https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-mx/

You’re a bit off the mark when thinking about derestriction though. An ebike isn’t a car that’ll do 200mph if that pesky speed limit weren’t there. Street legal systems have at peak 1hp and usually only 1/3 of a horsepower so air resistance limits their top speed to not much more than their limited speed. The sur ron has over 6 horsepower so it’s a bit more capable.

Grannyjone, too many variables with ebikes to pass judgement on them all. It’s possible to buy ebikes with hub motors and tiny 125Wh batteries. Point one of those at a hill and it will die within a few miles. It’s also possible to buy 1000Wh+ batteries with mid-drive motors, those will go further than you’d ever want to in a day.

Someone asked how much charge you could get over an hour for lunch. I don’t have an exact answer but if you plugged a 6A bosch charger into a dead ebike you’d be looking at 216Wh of charge or about 45% on a 500Wh battery. Not bad at all! Other batteries and chargers could well do more than that.

“If you want to do 30mph, just get a moped.”

What if I want the option of doing 30mph to be safe on the roads, but also the option of using canal tow paths and whatnot to stay off the roads where possible?

A: not allowed in this country but is allowed in others. Try getting very fit and using a CX bike or something.

5lab, I think minimum wage workers aren’t allowed to use salary sacrifice schemes as it takes them under minimum wage (voluntarily but still), and that’s the problem. It’s unfortunate as a bike is far cheaper than public transport so would be of real benefit.

Oh damnit. I’m in the process of handing over money for an ebike well over the old 1k limit. I think it’ll complete before c2w rules get updated and my company catches up.

I’m in favour of the speed limit on cycle paths solution since that applies to all people equally and is how the rest of our roads work. There’s a chunk of the highway code that says “if there’s no signposts assume it’s 30mph” so just add “and if it’s a dirt road not wide enough for a car assume 15mph” and you’ve covered all the roads ever with no signage changes. Then you allow mopeds on the cycle paths so long as they stick to the speed limit.

Enforcement is a problem but if we don’t spend any money maintaining the cycle paths that problem solves itself, they become riddled with potholes, nature’s speed bump.

Biggest advantage of them is doing 10 miles after work in half an hour

Bingo. I enjoy commuting by bike far more than by Northern Fail but it’s hard to justify when going 10 miles to work takes an hour in the morning vs taking a train in 30-40 minutes. The return journey is a little easier to justify as it takes about an hour to come home by train (Grr timetables). If I could go faster and maybe not sweat as much on an ebike then that’s worthwhile. My ebike’s due to arrive some time this month.

Why not both?

I’ve got both a suntour ncx suspension seat post and a sprung saddle (not brooks though). The suspension post handles the big stuff but I can’t get it to be as sensitive as I’d like, possibly because I’m on the heavy side so the preload is high. The saddle adds that sensitivity. Next bike will be full suspension instead of rigid so we’ll see how that affects the need for suspension posts and saddles.

Bafang and bosch behave very differently when going above the assistance limit. The bosch cx for whatever reason feels like it loses 20-30% of your human input power somewhere between the pedals and the front sprocket. There’s some gearing in there to make the sprocket turn 2.5x faster than the pedals so that might be to blame, especially as lower end boschs, Shimanos and bafangs don’t have a small front sprocket and feel fine above the limit.

That’s why pushing beyond the limit is such a big deal, it runs into a flaw in the bosch cx. It’s also why there are so many speed mods for the cx, raising the speed limiter by 5mph should make the bike feel so much better. Personally I’ve bought a bosch speed (28mph) bike to avoid the limiter. Gearing on that bike is justifiably wide ranging since it needs to be comfortable to pedal at 30mph and easy to winch up hills. A rohloff hub gear should do the trick as well as a 10-52 cassette.

I was looking at my chocolate chip brioche today and thinking it’d be good ride food. It’s about £1.50 for 8, they keep forever and provide 100 calories each in about 20g of carbohydrate. I just need to find a way to hang the bags from my head tube, maybe small hooks?

I briefly rode the Tern GSD S10 (whichever one has Shimano deore gearing instead of the enviolo hub) and it was certainly enjoyable. I’m only 6″1′ so can’t comment on whether it’ll fit you two but it’s certainly a good cargo bike. The ride was a little harsh until I reduced pressure in the tyres but then it was fine going over cobbles. When I had both myself and the bike shop guy sat on it it was a bit unstable but that’s 200kg up high on the bike so a far cry from the usual load of shopping in the panniers.

I did my test ride at Manchester Bike Hire but they don’t have a tern GSD permanently in stock to try.

I hope an ebike will make normal person cycling over long distances more viable. I currently pootle along the canal tow path to commute to work. 9 miles takes an hour but I’m just a little too sweaty to get away without showering. If an ebike could bring that down to 40 minutes or let me get away without showering it’s all worth it.

Another change that might be worthwhile is replacing rear panniers with a rear basket. You can just drop shopping or a backpack in there and not spend time packing/unpacking panniers at either end.

I join that canal near Mills Hill Station so cover 60% the same route as you. It’s not that busy but I do recommend a bell for the occasional dog walker.

I like to think of it as two separate sections. Middleton to Failsworth and Failsworth to Manchester. Middleton to Failsworth is fairly flat and you can pick up some decent speed. The return journey is a little disconcerting as there’s a water runoff point that unsavoury sorts hang out at.

Failsworth to Manchester features 5-10 locks plus 3 sets of stairs and 1 cobbled ramp with speed bump bits. There are also geese on the path. It’s faster heading to Manchester since the locks, stairs etc. take you downhill. I’d consider taking Oldham Road for the return journey and then turning off to take the towpath from Failsworth onwards. Oldham Road is better on the way in than the way out due to bus and cycle lanes.

Suspension would be welcome for Failsworth to Manchester but isn’t necessary. There are just plenty of cobbled sections or tarmacced bits with tree roots messing up the surface.