Do I think people with religious beliefs should be allowed certain exceptions to the law? Yes I do. As morally repugnant that is to me, it’s the price for living in a truly liberal democracy. I wouldn’t like it, but that’s not the same thing.

Sorry but a liberal democracy should treat all people equally, that means not giving special exemptions and tolerance to religious belief.

Should terrorists be tolerated because slitting the throats of unbelievers is ordained by their religious beliefs? Can I make up my own religion in which I’m allowed to discriminate against heathen protestants?

Right, anyone up for a trip to Burma and a bit of vintage aircraft Oceans 11?

only caveats, no lengthy/expensive training required. i.e no airline pilots/astronaughts etc, has to be uk based too.

so, jobs like working for an events company or a bike distributor etc

So that discounts doctors, PHD scientists etc etc then?

On a serious note I’d quite like to be a Medicines Sans Frontiers Biomedical Scientist.

There won’t be many left as there is a new (maybe better but definitely uglier) one out in November.

This is interesting

http://irnwc.hypotheses.org/169

so is this (especially the bit on the media jumping on commemoration band wagons, some of the analysis actually makes me feel a bit sick)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NyQ5BkBo7asC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false

Also, just for the lolz.

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/34369585/commemoration-construction-nationalism-war-memorial-museums-korea-japan

So at the end of it, is war commemoration really a good thing? In the uk, except during the actual remembrance services, the media exposure seems to be very jingoistic (Battle of Britain commemorations, etc).

what is the lesson that we are supposed to learn from WW1..?

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups?

if the current gov was jingoistic we would be expanding the armed forces not contracting them, we’d be expanding in Afgan rather than withdrawing etc etc

That’s just due to public opinion and the economic times. If there was widespread support and money for buying hundreds of new APC’s and new fangled munitions, we’d be in Afghanistan till 2030.

Perfectly jingoistic labor and conservative MP’s got us into both Afghanistan and Iraq, remember? The British public aren’t jingoistic, the politicians would just like them to be.

Shouldn’t you really give a citation after that?

I think you should go back to reading the Daily Fail.

High rollers have more edge grip when used as a front compared to RQ, but it depends on how you like the front of your bike i suppose as the RQ’s are more rounded profile etc….

THIS. ^^^^^ High Rollers still give me more confidence than any other tyre I’ve used when leant over.

I also feel the high rollers hook up better on roots at the back.

The RQ’s are a better all-mountain tyre though as the high rollers really do have more drag.

Also, after two days of riding at Glentress my new front 42a High Roller looked much more battered with much more rounded edges than my rear 60a high roller. I can’t remember what the wear was like on the BC conti tyres though.

This thread pissed me off so much I decided not to bother…

I’m just going to have a depressed sigh and then facepalm.

any radiation that is high rated is dangerous not only wifi radiation but also any networking radiation, so how much radiation pass through one our uses with router ?

Anyone got a .44 magnum, I feel like ending my misery?

Germany may not have rocked up and committed genocide in England, but their would have been a few more jews, gypsies and homosexuals shipped away to the gas ovens or perhaps you like that idea bwaarp ?

Because Jews were gassed by the Kaiser? Obviously Germans just like practicing a bit of genocide whenever they can.

Melebowski, still don’t buy it.

Because our mate Dave wants to be remembered for doing something positive just before the next election

+1

In fact just for lols, here’s how apathetic soldiers are to the news.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/intelligence-cell/188777-ww1-centenary-rememberance-plans.html

Not many posts for arrse.

In particular I like

To be honest, I don’t understand the significance of a centenary for this. Why a difference in remembrance between 2013, or 2015, or 1999, or 2019?

To mark a centenary smacks somewhat of celebration. I’d prefer the simple ceremonial remembrance that we see every year.

Jingoism about war is long since gone and the steady stream of the (not so) well publised casualties from Afganistan remind people of the price people pay.

Except with Cameron I’ll place a wager that this will be all about jingoism – “Look at those wonderful glorious men, if only our youth had that kind of courage”. I’ll happily admit it if I’m wrong but I feel it will be designed to cause a wave of emotional patriotism. “Support the troops” and all that bollocks, sod the current lot of troops – they chose to fight. For once I wish the media portrayed some of the troops like a few friends of mine as being the types that like fighting instead of doing it for their country (I actually have less of a problem with this, at least it’s honest).

The tories are simply using the dead for political gain, which sickens me. If they really cared about soldiers they’d make sure they got better psych treatment when they got back home, or better equipment or better….etc etc ad nauseum

Personally, I am also so cynical that I feel Cameron probably misses the smell of mustard gas in the morning.

50m is absolute peanuts and if you were remotely aware of what a generation went through so that you can sit in luxury with the freedom to whinge then you just wouldn’t ask. The fact that you have proves that much more needs to be spent educating much more than just a few school kids.

Typical patriotic bollocks. Had we lost world war one or never even entered, Britain would still be here. Many of us would still be here. We’d still have a decent economy and we’d still be speaking English. Although I guess the EU might have been more integrated by now lol.

Germans would have never rocked up on our shores and committed an exercise in complete genocide of the English population.

They died for nothing, you can try to fancy they did die for something meaningful to perhaps add some optimism to your existence but at the end of the day you are totally and utterly wrong on this. This is going to be my problem with the remembrances, they are going to be portrayed as heroes who fought for their country. When in actual fact they were either gullible or to scared not to fight. Whole **** thing was about property and I say that having spent most of my youth reading a lot of the important books regarding both the world wars.

I had one grandfather who fought in world war 2, two uncles who fought on the somme and a grandfather in the RFC and every single one of them objected to war after and would never speak a thing about their experiences.

This is taken a bit out of context from the original essay but

“Men do not come together, as the Enlightenment teaches, for mutual cooperation and peaceful happiness; history makes it clear that they are never so united as when given a common altar upon which to immolate themselves” – Isaiah Berlin

Don’t care, do you think Cameron’s plans will show how utterly futile dying for your country is? How Europe’s elites sent millions of normal people to their deaths for the glory of which ever King or country? The depressing fact that at the end of the day it was all about property and we were just as guilty of kicking it off as Germany was?

No, instead it’s going to be a load of nationalistic crap and all we’re going to hear from the Tory press is how bad our youth are today compared to the youngsters who blindly walked into streams of hot lead.

Basically he now has to do anything his rabid, right wing backbenchers, urged on by the retired Generals in their constituencies, tell him to do. Or they sling him out for Bozza

Its been done to appease old tory voting ****.

Don’t want to actually fix the economy and invest in our future (the young) do we?

Don’t do faceache or twatter

http://mashable.com/2012/08/07/no-facebook-psychopath/

Hehe

monastical existence doing nothing in between work and going to bed*!

Sounds like my university experience – without the celibacy…or work come to think of it.

The only saving grace is that it won’t affect u if you’re over 60.

What a surprise, not. Pandering to their voter base.

Yep…especially when they’re as funny or pedantic as this, last time it happened was a few years ago with regard to a “picolax” thread, before that it was the “badger” thread, now you have joined the greats, forever known as the “chav” thread , i guess it’s almost as bad as folk trying to argue or get a point across on a web forum when for all intents and purposes they could be talking to a fat mama bear sitting naked in front of a multiple monitor set-up with sweat stains dribbling down her thighs onto the floor whilst getting off over a webcam feed bout intensive dairy farming.

I laughed so hard after reading that I thought I was going into seizures. Thanks. 😆

Yeah, I had the first Phablet….the Dell Streak a few years ago and miss the huge screen – it was just great for helping organize academic work. I reckon the Note 2 with all the new wizardry and the stylus will be even better.

For me, I think the One X/Galaxy SIII are a bit too big. I am due an upgrade and am looking to get the HTC One S, I think.

Big, pah?! There’s me thinking of getting a Galaxy Note 2! 😀

Thanks man. I miss Oxford (going back and fourth between a small town and oxford currently) so need some reasonably intelligent discussion to keep me sane – having others challenge my point of view is how I practice my own critical thinking and develop my own ideas further.

Everyone should be allowed their point of view, just keep in reasoned guys. Don’t just come in and say “well this or that is wrong….the end” (either end of the abortion spectrum). State your case and give some reasoned philosophy or evidence to back it up.

Poking fun at each other makes things entertaining as well, just don’t get so heated up in offence or become so offensive the report button is pressed a dozen times. I’m guilty of this but I’m trying hard not to be a dick, it’s hard sometimes and I’m used to forums that allowed out right trolling for the hilarity.

In which case, I’d respectfully suggest you see someone with medical qualifications then, lest said searing fury occur when you’re driving or in some other position where you might do someone harm.

Unless it’s all just keyboard warrior show

Respectfully Zokes, lets leave it at that shall we? We could have an interesting discussion, it’d be nice if someone could post some good scientific data or a well thought out ethical viewpoint before the thread get’s locked!

If we could, my cynicism in humanity might be lifted a little!

I agree it is interesting[ thanks for the flattery] but it is like adulthood – we may draw an arbitrary line at 18[ or wherever] but it is not like it really means anything as it is a constant gradual development rather than some rapid leap over a day or the night you turn 18 or from 28 weeks to 28 weeks and one day.

I’m in complete agreement with you on this, what we need to know is the point that guarantees 100 percent or at least 99.99999999999 percent of foetuses won’t feel pain during an abortion.

You’ve shown a good awareness of the issue being discussed to the point that I don’t feel the topic is ‘beyond’ you. You just may not have the time to really develop a good understanding of Biology.

Honestly the only thing that winds me up are people that don’t want to know or won’t listen to those that have spent countless hours of their lives trying to know.

Oh bog off Julian lol

I just get wound up by intellectual laziness (appeal to emotion etc). I don’t mind people actually thinking about the research and debating it.

Niet, doing a distance learning Msc. Why?

Pfffft, I like open source/free access as do some of my old lecturers. There’s sometimes to much elitism in academics, if it’s good for giving people a general idea of the debate then why not link them to wiki?

Yes, I’d be murdered if I did that in a thesis – but this is a forum and some people seem curious enough (like Junkyard) to think about the topic in a critical manner so I believe it’s appropriate.

I’m just using it for laymen, it has a few links to some half-decent articles.

Not everyone has access to journals through Athens or interesting and reliable articles through a subscription to New Scientist, I do but I don’t think Junkyard does?

This article was posted earlier by JulianWilson.

Pain perception requires two distinctly different components: 1) nociception the sensation of the stimuli and 2) perception with emotional reaction which is the unpleasant feeling that occurs in reaction to the noxious stimuli. These distinct components are processed by the brain in areas anatomically and physiologically distinct from one another (see Human development occurs as an analog rather than digital process.

http://anes-som.ucsd.edu/VP%20Articles/Topic%20C.%20Anand.pdf

The paper seems a little muddles at times though. I’m not sure I like it.

Wiki has a nice little summary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonatal_perception

Electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in premature infants probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks; this study asserted that withdrawal reflexes and changes in heart rates and hormone levels in response to invasive procedures are reflexes that do not indicate fetal pain

I’m not using this to give any weight to either side of the argument but this kind of highlights my problem with Jam Bo’s line of reasoning. Just because it might look like it’s in pain doesn’t mean to say that it is.

Also bear in mind the unborn foetus is effectively anaesthetized. Personally I feel this is the strongest evidence against a foetus feeling pain.

He and his team detected the presence of such chemicals as adenosine, pregnanolone, and prostaglandin-D2 in both human and animal fetuses, indicating that the fetus is both sedated and anesthetized in the womb. These chemicals are oxidized with the newborn’s first few breaths and washed out of the tissues, allowing consciousness to occur. If the fetus is asleep throughout gestation then the possibility of fetal pain is greatly minimized.[7] “A fetus,” Mellor told the NYTimes, “is not a baby who just hasn’t been born yet.”

It’s still open to debate though.

So are most of her dinners from now on

That’s dark, even by my standards.

…yet earlier in the thread you seemed to be challenging someone’s observations of pain response in a 27 week prem baby, not a 12 week foetus.

No, I think you misinterpreted. I was mostly attacking the way in which he challenged that paper. Big difference.

Thing is – theres nothing reckless about what she did. If she’d snuck into a lab and started mixing her own cocktails that would be reckless. Drinking hairspray and milk and running round Possil with a sword is reckless, ordering drinks from a menu in a licensed establishment, no mater how much hyperbole in the name of the cocktail is completely sensible.

+1

I might consider re-evaluating the 24 week limit perhaps by a few weeks once a consensus on the issue that supports those findings has been made by leading academics in the field.

Interesting study, in no way does it support a drop to 12 weeks though.

Scienti?c data, not religious or political conviction, should guide the desperately needed research in this ?eld. In the meantime, it seems prudent to avoid pain during gestation

Different thread. CBA to find it now but it was by GrahamS about people making their kids fat I think.

Oh I was mostly having a laugh, was that the diabetes and diet one? If it’s the one I’m thinking about I’m not sure I was won over by the studies posted.

Your probably right, I am biased against fat people. Hence why I should probably not carry out research in the area of obesity and public health.

Except when the science doesn’t fit with your own personal prejudices of course, in which case you ignore/discount it.

Where exactly have I done that grum? If someone can prove to me a foetus can feel pain at 12 weeks, I’ll happily back down.

The whole point of this thread was that Jeremy Hunt was making an ethical opinion based on ‘scientific evidence’. Where’s the evidence to support re-examining the morality of the abortion limit and reducing it to 12 weeks?

Bwaarp, I’ve never been in a NICU either, but for the puropses of balance, I am also aware of research that suggests that some of the pre-natal experiences of the baby/foetus from well before 35 weeks can have effects on the neurological development (and consequently potentially the personality traits) of the child in later life.

It has long since been accepted that right from birth, stimuli such as touch, noise, light, temperature and the ‘suddenness’ of those stimuli begin to affect not only the reactions and behaviour of the baby but also the completion of the wiring of the brain and by consequence one’s personality, (which incidentally some researchers believe is not complete until your early 20’s, but that is for another thread!). I can well understand how these processes could begin well (over 5 weeks) before birth.

Interesting Julian. Can you point me in the direction of the research?

I would change my stance depending on the evidence if it were shown that a human foetus could feel pain before 35 weeks. Unlike Yunki I feel that good science can help to guide moral and ethical issues, I don’t feel that personal experience should though. To be fair to Yunki and Jam Bo, we do not know everything there is to know about this particular issue and therefore I believe that answering these questions with better evidence is of great importance.

My real issue was not the science though but Jam Bos attitude towards it.

Yunki calm down man, think of this thread as just a heated houses of parliament debate.

the greater issues being discussed are way above my head,

No they aren’t. You’ve made a few valid points.

I had expected that perhaps bwaarp and zokes were naive teenaged boys, trolling someone under unfortunate circumstances like we hear about on the news..
If nothing else this thread has shown up some people that I would find it impossible to respect if we were to meet on the trails, simply because of their callous and disparaging treatment of a fellow forum user..

I’m so angry that words fail me

You seem to be saying that just because this is a sensitive issue, we have no right to be arguing against your opinion.

but it’s not is it..? it’s likely to be a very similar experience for every parent ever that has had to deal with it..

Got evidence for that? Historically the medical world has made countless mistakes using ‘experience’ as opposed to evidence based medicine. Why should it be any different here?

Central heating.

zokes, bwaarp, you have shown yourselves to be winners..

I don’t feel as if I’ll be winner but thank you. I have this unnerving feeling that one day I’m going to get lynched and be pitch-forked to death by religious zealots in some post apocalyptic dysotopia. Probably by pro-lifers. The current lull in human crass stupidity and the increase in reason and tolerance can’t last for too much longer.

Again, define ‘serious congenital abnormality’ or ‘serious disability’
where do you draw the line?

Also, I call slippery slope fallacy on this and also this

What f they are stupid and they wanted them to be a doctor?
What if they are no good at sport and they wanted a canoeist ?
Where are you drawing this line