Meanwhile, in 14th century Lebanon:

I think you’ll find that is in certain enclaves of Lebanon. Lebanon is seeing increased amounts of insecurity and extremism as you should well know, due to the actions of more but slightly different (apparently) religious nutcases across the border in Israel.

I’m going to make a point so people like Junkyard et al don’t misunderstand me.

I don’t claim to be of superior virtue to a Muslim, as Benjamin Franklin stated…..no man has a monopoly on virtue….and that my friends is precisely the point. Democracy and liberalism should recognize this, religion and in this case Islam….on the whole… does not and never does unless religions hold on people is tempered. This is one of the areas where at a fundamental level, strong religious belief is the enemy of liberalism.

wow started this thread. went for a ride and came back to this.

Poor attempt at playing an innocent troll there tony.

I know our heads of state just support our brave boys out there fighting, killing and dying for freedom……far more civilised arent we.

Please, those lot are enemies of democracy as well. Do you seriously think that I believe the huge hearts and minds bit of a mess in the Middle East is good for our way of life?

See the thing about democracy is that it is an incredibly unlikely blip in history, that is effectively a priceless china vase balanced on top of a pin head. Don’t ever take it for granted and think it will always be this way, democracy needs maintaining and looking after. Something I personally believe we are failing to do in so many ways.

This wonderful environment you and I live in… where we are free to question authority, free to develop new scientific ideas, free to invent, free to shag whoever you please…goes completely against the nature of our history as a species.

I’m also slightly suspicious after your last line that you adhere to the ‘noble savage’ school of thought – but I could be wrong.

Some young males behaved like dick that is the story
How many drunks intimidated folk that day or gangs of footbal fans or whatever…none of them threaten my way of life unless i lower myself to behaving like them .

Young football hooligans don’t tend to have ideologies that are supported by heads of state.

I have no useful contribution to make.

Once you’ve done that you can start reading books that look at the problems democracy and liberalism face in the 21st century and then make up your own mind.

I respectfully disagree with Junkyard etc but this topic is so complex and nuanced that it will take pages for any of us including Junkyard etc) to defend our views…thousands of words…..this thread will descend into a slagging match long before then – with people labeling each other racists or swivel eyed goat shagger apologists – such is my faith in humanity. I think I’m going to quit now before the stupidity starts to tear a hole in the fabric of my being – although I’m acutely aware this has already begun to happen.

I’m going to get back to writing my statistics paper.

Yunki… start off with John Locke, Thomas Jefferson etc etc…walk in the shoes of the giants and then trace the development of the enlightenment thinking throughout history.

You know that is EXACTLY what they think as well… you are just like them.
I dont agree their is direct confrontation tbh.

Except my ideology doesn’t really make that so does it? This isn’t facism vs communism where the two extremes are not polar opposites but a horseshoe. These are vastly different ideologies…. Maybe the west could somehow talk them out of their grievances with us, somehow I doubt this would be possible though even if we did stop bombing them for half a century.

Would you like me to swap newspaper headlines with you? I know a few links to the Daily Mail.

They may not represent the actual views of the majority of Britons though.

The Daily Mail line is akin to Godwins law.

I don’t think we should be pretending to like cultures or political elements that are in direct confrontation with our own – we should not be tricking ourselves that these elements are benign and to be safely ignored. That is all. I don’t care about the color of someones skin etc these obfuscate the real issues, all I care about is liberalism and where it’s headed over the next century.

What I see are political and social enemies to liberalism be they abroad or within our own country. Ranging from anti-terrorism legislation, the rise of the right and it’s social causes etc to religious and cultural opposition abroad. None, I repeat…NONE of these should be ignored. If we do it’s at the peril of everything the west has achieved (whilst we’ve done a lot of bad stuff, it’s a hell of a lot better than the alternatives).

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/najib-lgbts-liberalism-pluralism-are-enemies-of-islam

I’ve met some great people who happen to have faith and to simply rant at them that they’re completely wrong would smack of bad manners.

I don’t care for good manners.

I do agree with your latter point to an extent though.

THIS
Re misogynism lets not forget women were killing themselves for the vote only 100 years ago here.
Equal pay act only here 50 years [ and still a disparity]
Homosexuality was a crime 45 years ago

We may be ahead but not by that much. we win the argument on personal freedom by being tolerant and beating the arguments not by literally beating the arguers.
and everything yunki says

Yes, but all of this was set in motion by the enlightenment thinkers many many many years ago. You need an ingrained culture to enact slow change, this stuff doesn’t happen over night.

No you aren’t, you named specific countries where Islam may or may not predominate without any caveats. You great big hairy racist.

No, you are to blind to see that religion is a threat liberalism.

There’s no old school liberals left who are actually willing to defend our political values. This depresses me.

Ireland: Doesn’t like abortion therefore Misogynistic
Italy: See above
Russia: A half century of communism didn’t shatter those glass ceilings, therefore misogynists all.
The Vatican: Don’t get me started.
Switzerland: Women couldn’t vote until 1972…

On a far lower scale but yes they are

and that’s why I don’t really care for any of those countries you listed as well.

Italy is a failed corrupt state, Russia is run by gangsters, the Vatican **** kids and Switzerland…well..they’re more or less reformed now.

bwaarp – but all those places have family structures that are matriarchal don’t they… really?

If we’re really honest about it

Matriarchal in the way that pre-female emancipation was matriarchal.

If you think women have any real power in those countries you are having a laugh.

You’re describing popular stereotypes. Not everyone in those nations are Muslim – ever heard of the Coptic Church for example? Do misogynistic people really have to all be Muslims? There are a few misogynists in the good old Anglican Church too you know.

I’m talking about at an institutional level, which culture and religion influences. I’m not talking about individuals.

You’re describing Wahhabi Saudi Arabia, which is very archaic in it’s views yet is a bastion of Western imperialism in the Middle East. We go nuts over their oil over here and go out of our way to supply them with similar state of the art weaponry as we do Israel.

But that’s not all Muslims…in the same way as not all Christians believe the actions of the Crusaders were righteous. As I’ve alluded to before, not all Muslims are the same. Seriously, try to get to know a few before you make sweeping statements.

– Pakistan: Misogynistic

– Iran: Misogynistic

– Iraq: Misogynistic

– Lebanon: Misogynistic

– Egypt: Misogynistic

– Chechnya; Misogynistic

– Jordan: Misogynistic

– Kuwait: Misogynistic

– Oman: Misogynistic

– Saudi Arabia: Misogynistic

– Malaysia: Misogynistic

etc ad nauseum

TBH though I pretty much loathe any country that isn’t a liberal democracy.

self repeating rifle

Self loading rifle….amateur.

Anyhow, Islam on the whole is the enemy of western liberalism. We can say that it’s offensive to tarnish all Muslims with the same brush when it comes to things like attitudes towards women etc. But when you look at the middle east, they are pretty much still living in the 16th century. Personally I find how they treat women really **** offensive and at the back of my mind when I’m talking to a beardy type, I know how he’d treat women who are my friends if he ever got the chance.

There are lots of atheists on here who make a point about attacking religion and Christianity who are doing their best to be PC about this whole issue – however at the end of the day, ideologically these people are not our friends.

What’s more the presence of more religious nut jobs in the country is giving ammo to the far right – so on one hand we are having to put up with an increase of belief in a hugely repressive religion and on the other hand we’re having to deal with more right wing zealots.

It’s not going to be fun for those of us who have more left wing ideals… getting caught in the political crossfire and resultant instability if this issue ever reaches boiling point.

Just download/stream what you like to watch over the net. No need for a tv license or cable unless you are into sports – then you can just nip to the pub to watch if you really have to.

my misandrist and at the time closeted lesbian ex lives there.

So I’m giving it a wide birth. I know it’s a small risk that I might meet her but it’s a risk I’m not prepared to take.

Weaponized influenza that selectively targets people with genes predisposing them to hipsterism.

Never had a problem with Hope brakes and my family have had about a dozen between us over the years since the original C2.

EDIT: Scratch that, I boiled C2’s and minis in the alps…that’s it.

Well Camerons letting British troops loose in Mali.

I’d heard it’s really hard to get planning permission for wooden houses in the uk.

How hard is it to get wooden cladding for a crappy 60-70’s house then?

Shagged a fat bird so my mate could pull her hot friend.

‘Once more unto the breach’

Thanks for the good luck chaps, this threads been very informative. There’s a good community here.

No idea what happened after that as I was told in no uncertain terms that I had done a good thing but was now in the way, so went back to our room.

Next morning, they were at breakfast, together and her face was in a hell of a state. He had quite a few bruises I had not noticed the night before – maybe she had got a few blows during the fight, or not.

More like the Spanish police gave him a beating. Guardia Civil?

Awesome, there’s a lot to digest here but it’s proving to be a fun challenge.

Bwaarp – from our debates on here, I would never have guessed this!! Anyway good luck. Here are a few suggestions

Not many jobs these days, I decided to develop the statistics side of my education to widen my job field. Biomedical research positions are becoming increasingly hard to find and they tend to be very very specialized. You can end up being stupidly well qualified in some obscure genetic research etc and then find yourself out of a job and competing for fields you know far less about.

Stats is allowing me to cast me net out further to jobs such as banking, policy advice/research, public health and statistical consulting etc etc.

At the end of the day, I need a decent job. Making my educational background more general instead of pursuing something like neuroscience….is the best choice I’ve ever made.

Seriously? If so, you need to really consider the Swiss reaction especially re regulation (capital) and the different answers given by UBS and CS to the future of IB (among other things)

I have a Biomedical undergrad background and I’m studying stats postgrad.

I filled out an application for a laugh not knowing a thing about the banking industry and got a reply giving me 7 days to do a crash course in the banking industry for an interview in London.

Edited: Brilliant, thanks guys.

Interview for a position with UBS. 😈

who is ‘we’? The banks or some other entity?

Edited, yesh a bank.

*frowny face*

Too dark?

It’s amazing what they teach there.

Technically, those books are brilliantly constructed. Plus they’re a window into another age. And she can watch the TV adaptations if she finds them a bit slow.

The OP could do worse than giving one of these: http://www.penguin.co.uk/static/cs/uk/0/pubsetpages/clothboundclassics/index.html
NB. all the titles are orc-free.

It’s not the books, it’s suggesting them because she’s a girl and also because they have some pretty old fashioned role models for women.

I’ll use a quote that just about get’s my feelings across as I can’t be arsed to write it myself.

As many feminist scholars and columnists have questioned (most notably Cherry Potter), although it is understandable that such a man as Darcy held sway over women two centuries ago when society was deeply patriarchal, why should such a figure hold sway over educated feminist women in the 21st century?

Mr Darcy is a gateway drug to 50 Shades of Grey.

Some quite blokeish suggestions above.

Just get her a nice edition of one of the classics. Something by one of the Brontes (Jane Eyre is a cracking read, or Wuthering Heights) or Jane Austen (Pride and Prejudice is the obvious choice, Persuasion also good). They contain sme fairly good life lessons for young women too (always check the attic before you move in with your boyfriend). The Everyman hardback editions are quality but plenty of publishers do special covers etc.

An ex of mine who studied English and Creative Writing at UEA would coldly murder you for suggesting those books.

Also….

They contain sme fairly good life lessons for young women too

I Lol’d

Edit: I’ll get lynched.

+1 for Grapes of Wrath and 100 Years of Solitude.

Also,

On the Road by Jack Kerouac

perhaps The Motorcycle Diaries by Che Guevara (before he turned into a revolutionary).

There are cranks other than RS7s????

Rachel

This lady has taste.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand…..this thread is why I want a pair dual position air 140 to 180mmmm 5lb Boxxers…

When someone invents such a fork, I will gladly dump my single crowns the day they are released.

I’m always squeezing into tight, but manageable spaces.

So was Jimmy Saville.

The Stranger by Albert Camus?

Solaris by Stanis?aw Lem?