So it comes as a great relief to me that don’t like the Greens.

Actually it is to the rest of us as well. Luckily all polling reports indicate they will get no where in the next election.

in some areas

And again, since when were Journo’s who majored in some shitty arts subject more qualified than everyone else to make such opinions?

Who were these individuals anyway? Were they even journo’s or some champagne socialist readers who read a bit of what prince Charles etc has said and then decided that obviously the party is awesome?

In fact even George Monbiot does.

Buhahahaha

I haven’t cited anyone “as an example of a perfectly logical and reasonable human being”, where did you get that from ?

You attempted to cite her as an example of why the Green party isn’t loony, it played right into my hands. Most people with a smattering of science education would agree with me when it comes to animal testing. She holds an illogical fringe view that is based on the views of a reactionary protest movement, she is one of those types that are attracted to those kinds of groups. Hence she also holds other dodgy views like those on alternative therapies.

Basically even if Global Warming wasn’t scientifically proven or in fact dis-proven, she’d still probably believe in it. Because she’s a professional activist – that’s the kind of person she is….a career hippy.

Still, since according to you, quote :

What do the lies told by this other MP have to do with the lies told by our Green friend?

Or are you going to keep trying to deflect the fact that the person you cited as an example of a perfectly logical and reasonable human being, does in fact hold some pretty lunatic views? Views which are about as intellectually sound and morally defensible as aids denialism.

I’m glad you’re brought up medicine Z-11. Let’s remind ourselves how your great political guru Dan Hannan, is a big fan of telling lies about the NHS

How does that have any relevance to our Green MP?

Including alternative therapies on the NHS and encouraging people to believe they might work is one of the most unethical manipulative things one could do.

Ensure that all medicines meet safety standards, are properly labelled with ingredients and have information on side-effects.

HAHAHAHAHARRRRRRRRRRRRR like they already do?

Here in Brighton we are lucky to be served by an excellent network of complementary and alternative medicine practicioners.
The Green Party would fully integrate their services and expertise into NHS treatment plans, not only improving patient choices but helping to boost this important sector of the local economy.

This exercise in character assassination was far to easy.

She’s against animal experiments in Medical testing and thinks there are scientifically reliable alternatives.

There aren’t unless she wants to volunteer to skip the animal trials and put herself forward for untested phase 1 trials.

As I said, misanthropic loony and I’ll move country if she ever manages to ban those experiments and will conduct research in Hong Kong or Singapore instead.

for her outstanding contribution to European animal welfare”

So she’s an animal rights loony as well?

alongside varied personalities including Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez

I LOL’d.

In 2008 she was listed by The Guardian as one of “50 people who could save the planet”.

Cuz guardian jouno’s and readers who majored in something like anglo-saxon history etc are qualified to be able to make decisions on who can save the planet?

which was topped by Prince Charles.

Buhahahah, the man who wants us to go back to an pre-industiral agrarian society?

Or are all those newspapers, magazines, etc, all read and written by loonies ?

No, just uninformed idiots as usual. I’ve come to the crashing conclusion the 99.5 percent of the people on this planet are wrong about everything 100 percent of the time. As a general rule it seems to serve me quite well.

We always find a way round them

There’s a lot more safety in technology than the green option of going all hippy to save the earth and cutting back on R&D and limiting the growth of our economy in the name of cutting back on CO2.

We’re **** already, the damage has already been done to the planet. Global warming is going to happen now whether we cut our CO2 output in half by next week. Other countries like China and India will still plow on ahead regardless, we’ll get left behind and it will be for nothing.

The only way out of this is forward, through the application of better technology produced through regulated growth and capitalism.

Out of interest, why do you consider the Greens to be loons ?

Because looking at their policies, the economy would go to hell pretty quickly.

This is from their manifesto.

Because size matters: if the economy gets too big it will grow beyond its ecological limits.

There’s no such thing as ecological limits in terms of humanity. We always find a way round them. Copper getting expensive? Oh noes it’s gonna run out? Oh someone invented graphene. OMGZ we’re gonna run out of foodz! Oh look someone invented a new GMO that massively increases productivity. OMFGZ GMO’s are evil corporate inventions that will give you cancer. Actually, all evidence points to them being quite good for you. OMFGZ global warming is gonna kill us all! Actually, it will cause problems but not wipe us off the face of the planet. OMFGZ we’re gonna run out of oil. Oh look, someone’s working on better batteries, better solar panels and Fusion! OMFGZ the world population is gonna hit dozens of Billionzzzz……no it isn’t….all evidence points to it hitting 11 billion and then decreasing back to about 7 billion.

Humans always find a way, Green’s underestimate humanities innate ability to adapt and invent. They’re misanthropic doomers. Removing growth and strangling markets will risk seeing that the things humanity needs to move forward won’t get invented.

Fair point.

Also, I don’t get why in the case of 650b we can’t just develop massively wider rims (eg 1800 gram per pair 40mm wide wheels like the Syntace ones) and run much taller tyres.

For the the average rider this would be a much better way of going about things…they do this in enduro motocross at the back end….they move down a rim size but keep the overall diameter of rim+tyre the same….supposedly helps with rider fatigue over long rides.

DH riders do a 3-10 min time run – all mountain riders are out all day….a bit more bounce is always nice for that situation.

Have any of you considered not voting for labour/Tory/libdem at the next election.

Other parties exist.

Like UKIP (loons), BNP (bigger loons) and the Greens (quaint loons)?

You’d expect about another inch I suppose. Pop quiz- according to Aaron Gwin, how many times did he use the full travel of his forks in race runs last year?

Physics lesson, even if he only used the last inch of his travel a couple of times you are still increasing how quickly the spring rate rises by going to 180mm.

Nope don’t see how the 2013 Champs track is conducive to 29ers.

The top end is tight steep and very technical in places with some pretty hairy drops. This requires a bike that can be easily handled in the air, a bike that can change direction quickly and a bike that can accelerate quickly.

The bottom section is fast and open…..it would be conducive to 29ers except that there’s hardly any rock gardens in it. So I’d place a guess that the drag from the wheels would negate any additional roll over and grip :mrgreen:

In short yes. Well and they have more cornering grip with the same section tyre as a 26″. Do you know where Worlds is this year? A 180mm 29″ would own a 220mm 26″ on that course.

In short, no….see all the factors I’ve listed to see it’s not a clear cut case.

Add drag from the larger wheel cross section in as well.

Sorry, call me cynical but this is just propaganda/PR and insulting to those that desperately need help, of whatever kind.

Except Pakistan is paying for her treatment, treatment that she could have only got in the USA, the UK or perhaps Germany.

Very very few countries have surgeons who are heavily experienced in operating on gunshot wounds to the head, those countries that do tend to be those at war…..so basically she was limited to NATO countries…..those NATO countries that offer this expertise are the ones I listed above. The international community offer their medical services to each other on quite a regular basis in times of need eg in disasters especially when those disaster hit countries find they do not have the relevant capabilities that they need…..this is called diplomacy…..something you seem to have no concept of…..and yes….. diplomacy is far more important than your “little Englander” needs…..funnily enough.

So in effect you are saying you’d rather this child die, so that you can get whatever treatment you demand? And what is that treatment pray I tell? Is it some bollocks highly expensive drug that barely passes statistical significance tests in terms of treating whatever it is you have?

I very much doubt the winner will be on 26″.

Why, cuz it rolls better?

Bahahahahahaaaaaaaa.

Come 2015, I’m going to revisit this thread and laud the fact that no one will have won a DH worlds on a 29er over you guys. Big time.

Fox say they’re going to production with the 650B- no different.

I see it’s also a 180mm fork, wonder how much a 29er Fox 40 would lose in travel.

I have less against 650b though, they may possibly take off….not 29 for DH though. No way, not ever, not in a bazzilion years. The UCI fashion police will ban them like they did with skin suits for starters.

Actually I’d agree… the OP does deserve some credit for listening.

Changing your opinions is a sign of reasonable intelligence.

KHS and Scott so we’re back to my original point.

I could almost see the point of 29 inch downhill bikes on a limited set of tracks…..but I’d only have one if was already rocking a 26 inch bike as I think that wheel size is way more versatile for downhill.

I think everyone’s forgetting that a 29er DH bike won’t happen because they physically can’t fit 8″ of travel and 29″ wheels in a well handling bike.

I did mention that as well, I don’t think wheels slow down energy transfer in medium to big repeated hits in the same way that another inch of suspension travel does.

More travel also = more small bump sensitivity = more grip.

Yeah but there’s different types of grip isn’t there – there’s straight line grip and cornering grip. I assume the latter of which can be affected by tyre volume. Not only that, you’re taking some of the bounce and grip out by running skinnier tyres as they are less able to deform to the tertain. Why would I choose to run higher diameter skinner heavier tyre’s and wheels when I can run lighter wider rims and higher volume tyres to gain grip?

But no, I wouldn’t chuck the 2.4 dual plys because there’s a fine line between grip and weight and I don’t think 2.4 dual ply’s on a 29er would hit that fine line.

There’s such thing as having to much grip as well – kind of see rolling resistance…..

Touches he was making to change direction etc showed that grip was at a premium when it was required.

And those changes would become harder to make if the rotating mass of the wheels became higher – lack of grip might cost you time – so can not having enough time to lay the bike down from one corner to the next.

was a hilarious thread about lots of fukwits saying how great slayer were but in complete denial that theyd recorded a song with IceT about the la riots and that theyd boycot slayer gigs if it was true

Trolling Stormfront is truly some of the best fun one can have on the internet.

“If Whites are the superior race, then why do Jews always outsmart, manipulate, and control white people?” – is always good for a laugh.

CS length makes a huge difference to me on big bouncey bikes.

I’m not sure you’d even have much extra grip in the downhill discipline, your going to have to lose some tyre diameter so you don’t have an incredibly heavy wheel set. More momentum in rock sections and more grip when the bike is leaned up straight? For sure….but since when did mountain bikes have engines and need copious amounts of straight line grip to get the power down? More grip at high lean angles compared to a higher volume, lower pressure tyre? Debatable.

The question is whether that increase in roll over is worth it considering all the other areas where you lose performance – weight, maneuverability, loss of suspension travel to accommodate larger wheels etc.

Don’t need grip when you’re going so fast you’re floating over the stuff anyway.

I’m right, you lot are all wrong.

So there. :mrgreen:

What do you think and who’s paying for the privilege?

I’m betting you read Stormfront because The Sun is just not right wing enough for you.

11mm difference. 11mm.

And also a much larger wheel to rotate around and find them balance spot.

I am convinced, ever tried a full downhill bouncer with a ridiculously long chain stay compared to one with a nice short one? It’s the difference between making certain jumps relatively easy and fun and turning them into a complete chore – and also turning manuals into a chore. It’s the combination of the 180mm to 200mm of travel and that long chainstay that does it.

It all adds up as well, when your constantly trying to lift your bike around on a 5-10 minute downhill run do you really want to become even more fatigued by the extra weight of pedaling, the extra effort put into correcting jumps where you stray offline, the extra effort that you have to put into manualing due to the CS and wheel size.

Then theres the fact that smaller riders are more affected by these things than others, do you think an average height rider is going to be able to ride a 29er downhill bike as well as a 6 foot 5 rider could?

Are they going to produce two sets of Boxxers, one 29 and one 26 for different height riders and bump prices up even further? Upside down forks are the answer you’ll say! Because those have worked really well so far! DVO might manage to make a USD fork work for pedal bikes I guess, might being the emphasis. Even then they’d have to ship with different optional internals to alter travel etc.

Lots of work for **** all gain.

No I don’t see that people would be using them – the hardest bit of downhill is anything that is related to going airborne or picking the right lines and hitting them. If you can’t ride an 8 to 10 inch travel bike through a rock garden and need 29 inch wheels your doing something so horrendously wrong that you should just give up and quit the sport.

Even total n00bs on the race circuit need to be able to manual stuff and hip jumps – A 29er with an insanely long chainstay and 7 inches of travel would make this harder. Downhill bikes are already hard enough to chuck about as they are.

Orange DH bikes

Nothing wrong with aluminium single pivots. It’s the geometry, sizing, tyres, correct basic suspension setup, frame stiffness and a good feel of the front contact patch that really count.

In fact watching that video….Sam Hill would had a tyre shaped burn mark on his arse had that been a 29er.

As that video shows, the rider and the bike are a highly dynamic machine….looking at the way Sam moves around on that bike he’s clearly not going to go faster just because bigger wheels roll over stuff more easily.

OK, so- the reason that 29ers aren’t used must be performance. And the reason 650B is being used must be for marketing. And there’s no way that these arguments could possibly be reversed. Oh and you can tell that bigger wheels are a bad idea because the teams and manufacturers currently on top, who have the greatest desire for stability, haven’t pushed for a change which could disadvantage them.

Let’s wait and see. 650B is already performing better than expected at the highest level, despite the hardware handicaps. And let’s be honest, what works for the best riders doesn’t always work for the dobbers, it just influences what they buy. I reckon I could benefit more from a bigger wheel than the pros

If Trek thought they could get an advantage over Santa Cruz with a 29er they’d have tested one in the worlds by now.

650B might end up competing but everything I’ve read, including timed races has indicated they offer no advantages over 26ers.

Downhillers don’t want big easy rolling wheels, they want bikes you can bounce off terrain more easily like this.

Sure there are people who can throw 29ers around pretty well but they are not optimal for that use at all.

I like big fat 2.4 inch dual plys in the right conditions…..these weigh a **** bomb on 26inch bikes…..imagine how much they’d weigh on a 29er…..I don’t really want to have to lose tyre diameter to save weight as it really helps with the maximum lean angle and stability in corners.

Then there’s the whole issue of the chainstay length in 29ers…..so increased CS length and rotating weight…..great….just what I want for doing manuals, popping off terrain and executing sudden directional changes on the ground or in the air.

And the guys that have to do it all alone and push every step of the way to get it done are doing it because… it sucks?

As a way to differentiate themselves from Trek, Santa Cruz and Specialized because their bikes and riders are inferior. They know they can’t hope to compete with the likes of Gwin on the mountain bike to a Honda GP bike – so they’ll just try and sell some quackery as the next big thing…..using the slogan….it’s goes faster cuz it’s got bigger wheels yeah…..and idiots will then buy them.

Fox produced a USD 26 inch fork for the hell of it….so they can prototype forks pretty easily…. but they’ll want teams to cover some of the costs of R&D.

The only ones that can afford to do that are not Intense, Scott or KHS. These guys aren’t big players, if Trek, Specialized or Santa Cruz wanted them prototypes would be banged out in half a season.

29ers are like air forks in the MX world, they seem like a good idea on paper and in the marketing. All the teams buy into them and then the top riders like Dungey and Reed realize…actually I can’t sodding well feel the front end.

Neither of those reasons specifically. For downhill it’s simple, there isn’t the hardware- if you could get a 29er Boxxer and a 29er 721 and a 29er dualply minion to fit to your 29er Glory then you’d see people using it. As it is, people are working on it with Manitou forks (gah!) and whatever else is available, and unsurprisingly it’s less good than the tried and tested 26ers. Keep watching. 650B is already creeping in with KHS and Intense.

No, if downhill teams thought it would give them an advantage they’d have pestered Fox/Marz/RS by now to produce them a fork and tyre manufactures to produce 29er prototype dual plys.

So far though, none of the top DH teams have bothered.

I wonder why. Is it because….29ers are shit for downhill? Because when you look at top DH riders, they don’t just point the bike and let it roll over bumps….they’re hopping, skipping and manualing their way down the runs?

Snort coke off a dead hooker. Last one standing/not suffering from a cardiac arrhythmia wins.

IMO 29ers have a shelf life, they’re **** boring to ride, they handle like crap in the air, they’re unwieldy in tight technical downhills, direction changes are less quick, acceleration is less quick…etc etc ad nauseum……in summary totally and utterly boring to ride and they’ve been losing endurance XC races for christ sake (the whole point they were invented)….they haven’t taken off anywhere near as much as the manufactures/mags would have us believe!

29ers are basically only good for people who’s ability to ride extends to pointing the bike at the scary bits and hanging on for their lives – if you like to throw the bike around they suck massive warty donkey balls.

Go if you can afford or are willig to –

* Live in a world where you have to be mentally capable of dealing with violence.
* Live in a secure compound
* Keep schutzhunds as pets
* Kill someone with 12 gauge shotty/9mm
* Own an armored car
* Take out kidnapping insurance
* Teach your children and wife how to defend themselves.
* Deal with your wife leaving you if one of your kids gets slotted in a car jacking.

Got a few mates from SA who **** hate the place. Their stories make American hoodies sound quaint.

No, human stupidity is tearing a hole in the fabric of my being.

Mrs Vader is you’re mum and you’re 10 years old right?

That comment makes you about 5 years old.

Yeah, maybe both partners like uhhhhh rely on each other financially to make ends meet.

Not everyone earns 50k+ a year so that both partners are in a position to be relatively financially independent of each other.

Maybe some people have enough respect for their partners to consult them about large financial outlays….just because….uhhh mariage is a uhhhhhh partnership where mutual respect for each other goes a long way?

Also, 26ers are wai waai more fun. I don’t give a **** about roll over ability, what I want is a bike that I can easily pre-jump rock sections with, run wide wiiiide rims and run giant 2.4 inch tyre’s without feeling as though I’m riding a tank.

29ers are just boring slow clown wagons in that respect and the 650b specific bike I rode felt like it added nothing to the ride quality whilst compromising it’s handling in the air and it’s ability to be manualed or go airbourne in the first place. In fact my gut instinct said the increased weight of the wheels affected the performance of the suspension and negated any additional traction gained by the larger diameter wheels.

Basically 29ers and 650b bikes are for middle aged golfing mincers, as are carbon bikes.

I’ve the 29″ version, sorry…. Isn’t 26″ dead yet ?

No because all signs point to 26 inch bikes being faster in world cup XC races and downhill events.

I’m glad you bought into the hype though.