Selle Italia Flite for me—-been using one for 15 years and it fits me right. Saddles are all a matter of personal fit and preference.

I think the judgement process would require a panel to fully make an assessment 😆

@ernie_lynch
Can’t stay away–had to make one last check.
I don’t think the US has ever had full employment. Even when the unemployment rate was almost nil, there are always a certain number of people not working (either intentionally or unintentionally) or working off-the-radar to avoid taxes or in positions of nefarious intent–can you say growers of good weed.

Guys–it’s been fun, but have to sign off and get my focus back to work–it’s so easy to get caught up on these threads.

Both sides here have a point imho but I would never take a big stick to “welfare shirkers” unless we have full employment as it serves no purposes.

Yeah, but even with full employment, a big stick isn’t going to get results from some part of the shirkers—they have always been with us and always will.

I do believe that illegal and criminal aren’t the same thing.

Have to disagree on that—if you are in violaton of the law in this country, then you are, in fact, a criminal (whether they ever get prosecuted or not, for a lot of reasons is another story)

When there is a shortage of labour then you can have a case on “shirkers” but when labour is in surplus someone has to be unemployed

True up to a point, however the group I am referring to were sitting on their butts collecting welfare when the job market was booming. Of course the argument can be made they didn’t have the skillset needed,which is true for many—but a lot of them sure as hell weren’t makikng an effort to do anything to change that.

whilst i agree with you busydog on the shirkers in society, i really don’t know if it is actually a big problem. I look around and yes they do exist. But in the grand scheme of things i don’t think there are actually that many.

In the same way there are people who actively avoid tax, at all levels of the job market, either by employing an accountant, being paid cash in hand, or some other method, some legal others not, but non of them are very moral IMO.

Agree with that—I read somewhere that the US govt believes there is something like 400BB in uncollected taxes each year–mostly by people skating around the system–indeed not very moral.

Call me cynical but you mention about the illegal aliens and no attempt being made to stop them coming over the border, but in the same way that immigration has been allowed into the UK, you may find it quietly ignored as it keeps the wages low.

Here I think that the illegals have been ignored not just due to the fact that they keep the wages low—it didn’t start that way. It became a reality because employers (mostly agricultural and service industries) couldn’t get Americans to take the jobs, then they found out the illegals would not only take the jobs, but at a lesser salary and in that way the wage-cost did turn into a factor—of course now the employers don’t want that to change.
What is frustrating a lot of people here (especially in the border states) is that the government (feds and state to varying degrees) want to give the illegals the benefits of citizenship without having to go through the process–which has the potential of adding the 12MM or so estimated to be here into the costs of healthcare and other social care programs—-which is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of the illegals are returning the bulk of their earned wages to Mexico–and those being paid cash probably aren’t exactly paying their share of taxes. One of our illustrious congressmen made a statement the other day that “the Republicans are trying to turn the illegal aliens into criminals”—maybe the meaning of the word illegal got changed.

it is not just thatthese jobs were typically males exchanging brawn for [ quite good] wages. Now they need to exchange skills – they dont have= for [usually] poor wages.
Miner /steel workers wage v warehouse/call centre for example.
retraining wont help as some of them are not very able – i work with them trust me on that one- and dont really have the skills employers want nor the ability to learn them.

Very true, junkyard. That is another part of the whole issue. It especially hits those workers who are in the last, say, 10-15 years of their career and at a point where making such a drastic career change is even more of a challenge–both interest/capability-wise and salary-wise.

I can almost hear the sigh of relief from lazy welfare-takers when new government figures show a sharp increase in unemployment.

These lazy good-for-nothing shysters hope and pray for an economic downturn so that they won’t have to work anymore doncha know ?

The element I am talking about could care less what the employment level is at as they have, and will continue to have no interest in working as long as someone else is taking care of them.

Those who are unemployed and on welfare who are honestly trying to find work and improve their situation deserve all we can give in the way of help.

Add to this a system where there are more people than vacancies and where skills matter, you are always going to have some people out of work. When we had dockyards, steelworks and coalmines, those who were not intellegent academically had an option, but as we move ever more towards a service economy what do you do with those that are not able.

We in the US are dealing with that transition away from the old-line manufacturing, steelmaking, etc. and more to a service and/or technology based workforce—-and you are right that a certain part of the workforce isn’t going to be able to adapt. Even re-training only goes so far (and not proven to be terribly cost/result effective), especially for the technology related jobs. If I suddently had to learn IT, I would be totally screwed.

Great discussion–I don’t think any country has all the right answers and every time a good answer/solution comes up, a new question or complexity arises.

@junkyard
I agree welfare benefits can’t be stopped, but I would just like to see them focused on the really needy who are honestly trying to make it and giving some level of honest effort rather than the lazy lot who just want a free ride.

busydog – so yo have jobs for all these people to go to? No structural unemployment as a result of government policies?

TJ, of course we have structural unemployment here, some of it actually caused by the governments interference with business (can you say regulating everything to death, a crappy corporate tax structure, etc) and some of it caused by the errors/miscalculations of business itself (over-expanding, miscalculated product lines, underestimating comp;etition, etc). The people whose jobs have been impacted by those and other factors beyond their control I have complete sympathy for and belive the country should give all the support it can (of course if Congress would reign in the debt and stop deficit spending there might be even more help available). It’s just those that want a handout rather than making the slighest effort to do something about their situation that I have an issue with.

My father has diabetes, among other things, and I get the feeling that he would long been out on the scrap heap had he been in the states. I do get the impression the Americans have an “I’m alright jack” attitude.

I can see how people get that impression of us, at least some Americans–there are some that impress me that way as well.
I don’t think your father would be relegated to the scrap heap with diabetes at all. A good case in point is my mother in law. She is in ill health (diabetes and congestive heart failure), 84 years old and living in a semi-assisted care facility (she has been offered living with all the kids, but she won’t do it–and to be totally honest would probably drive any one of us crazy).
Her savings/invenstments ran out a while back and the family have, for the most part, contributed all they could, but it still fell short.
With a little digging, we were able to find multiple sources of financial assistance for her that no-one had bothered to explore that now augment her social security income–as a result,her assisted living is completely paid for, allowing her to live in the setting she wants–and the money the family can contribute she can use for things she wants.
There are a lot of vehicles for assistance here, but they aren’t all under one entity and, unfortunately, it does take some digging and creativity to find them. One thing the US needs is a central clearing point for all the programs availble, both government and private–a lot of people, however well intentioned, don’t know how to find all the resources.

sorry – that attitude stinks to high heaven. You need to look into worklessness and why it occurs not blame the workless.

No, the attitude of the lazy, career welfare-takers stinks to high heaven.

And there is,of course, no unemployment in the UK???

Worklessness occurs for a myriad of reasons. Two of the factors being: soft economy/job market and another is the above-mentioned lazy, career welfare-takers who have no interest in even trying to work. Those impacted by the job market/economy I have every bit of sympathy for and believe in giving every bit of help we can–the others not so much.
We are obviously on diffent ends of the spectrum on this one and I respect your opinion and your entitlement to it.

And they are exponentially on the rise? You sure that’s not just Republican propaganda? Giving people something for nothing is something people are rightly concerned about it, but politicians on the right of both our political spectra play on that to manipulate voters.

Of course the Republicans feel that is the case and lean to self-determination and initiative as keys to resolution, just as the Democrats take the opposite view and want people see the government as the entity to take care of everything—and both do it to manipulate/drive votes. At the end of the day, IMHO, I think US politicians really have one main agenda—-to continue getting re-elected—which makes me a firm believer in term limits, but that’s another subject.
Neither party is entirely right or wrong. How one views it is driven, in a large part, by their political and social views—-and none of us are likely to sway the other to their point of view. I do, however really enjoy good debate and expressions of opinion—everyone learns a little they didn’t know and enhance their appreciation of other’s views, even if they don’t agree.

What do you mean by that?

Maybe not the right word, but I meant the people who just want everything handed to them and done for them without making any effort to even try to do something to earn it—sort of making welfare a career aspiration.

I am sure you probably have that element as well–it just seems like the number here grows steadily and the growing number continues in good job markets and bad, so can’t lay it all on a poor job market situation.

I have no issue whatsovever with helping people truly in need who are trying their best to pick themselves up, but not inclined to be so helpful with those who just sit idle, making no effort at all and want everything given to them.

That’s trotted out here too, often.

I am sure it is an issue oft mentioned there as well–and I agree with you that it may be necessary to include the non-deserving in whatever services rendered so as not to exclude the deserving, but it seems like here the number who just want a nanny is growing exponentially—then add to that the est. 12MM illegals in the country since the government has abdicated it’s responsiblity to create any semblance of a secure border.
I really hope we can find a solution, but it will hard to come up with something that will please everyone.

What happens if you get knocked dwn and can’t afford the treatment? Do you just get billed for it to pay down the line?

Here locally, and I think it’s a legal requirement nationwide, that a hospital emergency room can’t turn down emergency service to anyone, even an indigent person or illegal alien (which is whole other debate around here). Going beyond the emergency room treatment, what happens depends on a myraid of variables: Private insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, self-pay all come into play depending on an individuals circumstances. That is what the entire issue of this thread revolves around. Our system certainly isn’t perfect and has gapsin it that it sounds like the NHS covers to a large degree. One of the sticky issues in this country, right or wrong, is that too many people just don’t want to take any responsibility at all for their healthcare (or work or education or housing or much of anything else) and expect to be taken care of without any effort on their part.

Was that really on the cards though? Remember in the UK at least you are still free to buy private healthcare if you can afford it.

Not really knowing what was in the cards on the healthcare reform is a lot of why there is so much resistance. Getting a straight answer out of the government is almost impossible. The simplest of any kind of bill/legislation proposed ends up with a myriad of amendments attached that often have nothing to do with the issue and jacks the cost out of sight.
The healthcare reform legislation was, as I recall, over 1000 pages long and they damned well didn’t want the public to be able to see or comment on any part of it before they voted on it. It’s that approach that had people feeling it was getting rammed up you know where.

IME quite a few Doctors want to live in out of the way rural locations, rather than having to live in a big town or city. However our Sticks are not on the same scale as your Sticks

Yeah, there are places in New Mexico where gas stations are 100 miles apart. The other issue is housing–in many of the rural areas there isn’t housing available and schools involve 40-50 mile bus rides for kids.

The whole debate was an embarassment to be fair. Both sides whipped up into a total frenzy by people spouting made up nonsense

I agree that the whole healthcare debate got out of control on both sides of the issue and, typical of our delightful 500 members of Congress, they had the smoke and mirrors working overtime on every side of the issue.

She values small government more than universal care it seems. But then she was thinking things would be taken away from her, and I couldn’t convince her otherwise.

I think there is a considerable part of the US that just doesn’t want big government so deeply involved in every aspect of their personal business.
Part of that is because they (myself included) want the ability to choose their doctors and medical care and don’t want that dictated in any form or fashion.

Another factor that plays into it is that our government spends money like drunken sailors without regard to debt accumulation—-I think healthcare reform (and it is needed here) would have a much better chance of enactment if the government would start acting like financially-responsible representatives and get costs in general under control (i.e. stop the bailouts to industries along with a myriad of other things they throw money at). As long as Congress has the “let’s spend all we have and all we don’t have” mentality, it’s going to be hard to get people to be rational about any new spending, whether on healthcare or anything else.

In your system I assume [ to a greater degree] they go where the money is.

Our issue here in this state is that not many doctors/dentists want to live in such a rural/out-of-the-way location—-an issue of lifestyle and being so far removed from their peers-in-practice. Going where the money is plays into it for some I’m sure, but even a lot of the altruistic types just don’t want that remote of a location.
My personal doctor lives in Santa Fe and practices in Albuquerque. Santa Fe is a very high-dollar location, but he prefers the more “pedestrian” practice here in Albuquerque, so he drives 55 miles each way daily.
Some of the scholrships that are granted to people studying to becme doctors have a stipulation that they serve for a specified period of time in a rural location that doesn’t have good medical service available.

Some of the stuff around testing is when people demand these tests but the protocols say not needed at this point – then they get unhappy about it.

We have that issue as well when people hear about a “new, wonderful” procedure and doctor says it isn’t appropriate or needed or the insurance company protocols won’t authorize it—then the patient goes ballistic. If it is the insurance company protocol that blocks it, there is an appeal process that is sometimes successful, sometimes not.
If it a doctor that says “no”, then some patients go into doctor-shopping mode because, somewhere, there is a doctor who will probably do the procedure.
Often times, in the case of non-emergency or elective surgery/procedure, the operation/test is pushed out to a second priority status and not done as quickly. If it is truly an emergency or life threatening issue, it gets worked into the schedule one way or another.

I’m married to someone who recently needed MRI scans etc., here (Derby) it is a week or so wait in a non-urgent case, same day for an in-patient / high priority one.

From what you and a couple other posters have described the wait for specialized tests, etc. isn’t nearly the issue that ws portrayed in some of the stories going around from a few years ago.
I would imagine that in the UK, just like in the US, getting such tests/treatments in a timely fashion varies from area to area.
One issue we face here in New Mexico is the lack of physicians/dentists, etc in the more rural parts of the state—in some areas there isn’t a doctor within 50-75 miles (of course there isn’t much of anything else either)

Something I like about this site is that it can be informative as hell and very entertaining as well—as long as one isn’t too thin-skinned or has their asbestos underwear on.

Now that you have put that burning issue to rest, I guess all you guys in the UK can go to bed
Thanks

How does one capture all or part of another post within a bracked to include as a reference in a reply. I see it done all the time, but not sure how. I looked in Help, but didn’t see it so thought I’d just ask–hope this makes sense.

Thanks junkyard—I knew there had to be an easy solution

Yeah, people here in the US calling it a “bathroom” is about as dumb as when they refer to it as a “restroom”

@ernie_lynch

Same kind of service–just different titles—here the ER is an entire department within the hospital

It’s nice when emergency room people are pleasant—knowing what they have to deal with 24/7 it would make a lot of people really cranky. I used to date an emergency room nurse and some of her stories about the incoming patients and their various conditions made me cringe—more than I would want to deal with.

@uplink — not sure, but I have reason to believe that our politicians and Hugh Hefner are the primary customers of Viagra. 😆

This whole thread made me think of another, related situation that is especially prevalent here in New Mexico, as well as with the other border states with Mexico.
Our hospital emergency rooms are innundated with illegal aliens seeking treatment, not just for emergencies, but for everything you can think of–and by law they have to be treated, so it innundates the hospital systems and drives their costs up tremendously.

@tandemjeremy

It sounds like we can get in for some of the specialized stuff quicker (my MRI for the shoulder was somethng chonic I had lived with for a year and finally it got irritating enough to go to an orthopedic doctor), but doctors here won’t always prescribe the latest, greatest tests that are still of uncertain value either.

Another, somewhat related issue here, is all of the extensive advertising by the pharma companies on TV, magazines, etc of every new wonder product under the sun, which results in everyone asking their doctors to prescribe it.

@uplink

As I have reached a “certain” age and am now on the Medicare program (no longer have personal health insurance–probably couldn’t get it anyway with a case history of Melanoma), I was able to get an MRI next day for a shoulder injury—-my cost was a co-pay of about $30 for seeing the specialist. My co-pay for my regular doctor is $10 and I can, more often than not, get in the same day (which I was yesterday, 45 minutes after calling).

Prior to reaching the official Social Security/Medicare age, I was on my wife’s company healthcare plan and we paid, as I recall, about $250/month coverage for both (which is taken out pre-tax, so lowers your taxable income). With me off the policy now, she pays $110/month. My medicare basic medical costs me $1116.00 a year and I elected to take out a supplemental policy that costs $650.00 a year.

Hospitals here can’t turn someone away from the Emergency Room if they don’t have insurance–they have to treat them.

Being here in the US, I don’t think I will try to wade into the argument as I don’t know a lot about the UK health system in general, but reading the thread brought up a question:

I hear antecdotal stories about how long it takes to get medical treatment in the UK, especially some of the more specialized and/or sophisticated tests, i.e. MRIs, etc and wondered if that is actually the case there or more myth than fact?

It’s easy to see why dog threads are always so popular. When I worked in the UK a lifetime ago, I was always impressed by the fondness of people there for their dogs.

Lifer–Tilly looks she is sitting in HER garden, surveying HER guests over for tea–cool picture.

Stratobiker—is that a long-haired shepherd or a Malinoise or ??? That dog would get your attention if one was breaking into your house with the intent to burgle!!!

The New Mexico Labradoodle contingent:
Echo (Black 1 year) and Mattie (Brown 5 1/2 yrs)

+1 Bikemonkey They know how to go out in style in New Orleans–lived/worked there for a few years and it’s quite the event when they do a proper Bourbon Street soiree.
Never been to an official Irish wake, but hear they can do a pretty good sendoff.

Here in the US we have all sorts of words/phrases to describe death as well—it’s a subject that people here certainly seem uncomfortable with in general and use just about every description except “dead/dying”.

Red hubs & red spoke nipples–double bling!!!
Add red seat and you hit nirvana–of course you might only want to ride at night—on remote trails—alone.

Seriously, I had a black bike with red hubs and red spoke nipples and presently have black bike, gold hubs and gold spoke nipples—IMHO, both look(ed) pretty cool—-of course my wife does make off-handed comments about my clothes color combinations, so what do I know.