Turks were a nightmare to work: largely nocturnal, completely unreliable

What, all of them?

I’d just like to offer some balance here, as I probably have a little more insight into the area than most people on here. It’s common knowledge that one of the main reasons the situation continued for so long, was because of massive police corruption throughout the 80s and 90s. There’s no way that such a blatant industry could have existed otherwise; police turned a blind eye to the main gangs, and exerted pressure on ‘rival’ groups. Many of the raids had nothing to do with actual crime; they were designed purely to intimidate and harass local people. A climate of fear was engineered, which sadly exists to this day, although things are nowhere near as bad now. It was only when killings got too public and out of hand, and fears of house prices being affected, that something was actually done to solve the problem.

Regarding the social clubs; these places are for meetings, and politics is a significant reason many exist. Turks, being mostly ‘Muslim’, don’t officially drink, so quiet closed spaces for discrete consumption of alcohol are popular amongst the men. ‘Outsiders’ aren’t exactly forbidden from entering, but strongly discouraged. This is to protect those spaces and keep them for their intended purpose. The Turkish/Kurdish issue is very complex, and various groups want to retain a degree of privacy.

The Green Lanes area has thankfully changed loads; it’s a lot nicer and safer these days (and house prices have rocketed). The heroin industry changed significantly, as massive quantities were being airlifted in direct from Afghanistan via the British military (will be interesting to see how things are affected now that the UK has withdrawn troops from that region), and Heroin use in the UK is declining, due probably to the increased availability of other drugs, so the market is now significantly ‘depressed’. There’s just not the money there once was. Which is all good news for many minority communities in London and elsewhere.

The police are still carrying out intimidatory raids along Green Lanes, Blackhorse road, Dalston and other areas, now aided and abetted by the Border Force doing Priti Patel’s dirty work.Awareness is increasing though, and there is more kickback from nice white middle class types these days.

Anyway. This thread should be about kebabs.

I asked because you view sounded like that of someone who has not ridden one

Really? You thought that based on what ‘evidence’?

I used to live on Green Lanes (aka Greek Lanes) in North London.

There are probably more kebab shops on that road alone (it is 6.3 miles long) than in any other British city in its entirety.

Probably not far off. The choice along that road is ridiculous. Antepiler is a good one; there’s a whole group of restaurants under that brand, selling everything from Doner kebabs to Baclava.

Shame I’m not really into kebabs.

A life not lived. :( Please tell me you went in the Salisbury though?

@bridges – the Greeks and Turks don’t have a duopoloy on food cooked à la brochette served in a carbohydrate pocket

Of course not, but if you want traditional Greek and Turkish food, it’s probably a good idea to seek it in areas where lots of Greek and Turkish people live. London has such areas, with much bigger communities than anywhere else in the UK. Which is why you get a lot more choice of Kebab in London. Which is why the list of nominees might seem quite ‘London-centric’.

I discovered the weird cultural imperialism of the German Doner Kebab chain recently. No mention of Turkey or Turkish food anywhere to be seen!

That’s probably something to do with Turkish immigrants in large German cities such as Berlin and Munich, where Doner Kebabs are a very popular and easily found fast food type.

Bridges – have you ever ridden one?

Yes, why do you ask? Not only that, I’ve actually owned one. I found it ok for very short distances, but really quite crap at anything else. They are ok for short distances in Dutch towns, though, I must say. Mine was a wreck I found in the street, and fixed up. I ended up giving it to someone who’d actually lived in Amsterdam, so they appreciated it more than me.

sec offender

Demi?

The do not have the fully enclosed chain, integrated lights, full coverage mudguards, inbuilt locks, luggage carrying capacity

Which add loads of weight, and end up being a complete pain in the arse when things go wrong. Hybrids have easily as much luggage carrying capacity as any Dutch bikes. You can get belt-drive and E- versions of hybrids now. So much more versatility.

In terms of equipment, for me, MTBing became a ‘thing’ in the mid 80s, when brands such as Muddy Fox appeared. Back then, it was all about MF and Saracen, then ‘US’ brands such as Specialized, Marin and Cannondale started appearing. The fat alloy tubing of Cannondales was radically different to anything seen before. That’s when cycling became ‘sexy’. Racers were something your dad might have once ridden. The ‘go anywhere’ nature of MTBs proved to be a massive draw, and MTBs outsold all other type of bicycle combined. Kids like myself, who’d grown up with BMX, had a natural transition to a ‘proper’ bike that offered the same kind of escape and freedom our BMXs did.

It’s now seen largely as a sport enjoyed by middle aged men. Somewhere along the line, the ‘sexy’ got lost.

Don’t tell them about the £1000+ ‘phones that are out there now…

It’s the birth of the British trail centre and so the full package of MTB as a self-contained sport. Now it’s hard to imagine MTB without trail centres.

But hasn’t that ‘compartmentalised’ the sport, and taken it away from its ‘explore the wilderness’ original ethos though? Having to travel somewhere (by car, invariably) to ride off road kind of defeats the object, for me at least.

Let’s be honest though; the main function of outdoor clothing is to signify your social status to others, but creating the image of yourself as virile, active, successful etc, whilst in busy urban areas. Ordering a Latté whilst wearing anything less than ArcTerycx is just such a faux pas.

iphone 12 mini?

I looked at the Mini, then chose the full sized version. But the Mini is actually bigger than many of my older ‘phones, certainly for screen size. Larger and larger ‘phones have crept up on us to the point where the current 5″+ screens are ‘normal’. But for me, having that larger screen is much better for what I want to do with my ‘phone; such as maps and viewing images. Just more info on screen, and less scrolling around.

You can still buy basic small ‘phones if you want, but something like an iPhone Mini will give you dust and water resistance, and a decent camera. If you want such features, you’ll have to pay.

Same could be said for FS Enduro, racing/road bike, etc

Oh yes.

IME the Dutch utility bike is best of all for local journeys, cruising around, pub trips, general town/car-replacement. By far.

And in my experience, a bog standard ‘hybrid’ style bike is by far the best all-rounder, as you have a better more efficient riding position, they’re generally a good bit lighter, and have more ‘standard’ tyre sizes, etc. And can go up and down hills. No brainer…

Let me be first in with a rant about how London-centric it is.

The best restaurants are only going to be where there are larger Turkish and Greek communities. Which happens to be London. Ergo, you’re far more likely to find a decent Kebab in London, than anywhere else. Stands to reason. Your rant is wasted.

most MTB kit is form over function

Lol! It’s something, but it’s definitely not ‘form’. :D

Most people who do MTBing are male, 30+ and have no sense of style anyway, let’s face it. So perhaps that’s why MTB clothing is so generally terrible.

Exhibit A:

I think this pic by Cold War Steve really sums it up:

Drill is to make a hole in something. ymmv. Plenty of people still use hand drills for the right kind of jobs at (sic) hand for a number of non-stupid reasons.

Some advantages of a hand drill:

Longevity
Most hand drills were made in a time where tools were built to last and it’s commonplace to find ones from many years ago still being used today without issues.

Low maintenance
The only maintenance that a manual hand drill requires is oiling and possibly replacing wooden handles after decades of use if they’ve become worn down.

No sound
Compared to other drills of today, the noise coming from a hand drill is virtually silent. You can work any time of day or night without bothering anyone or needing protection for your ears.

Precision

A manual drill allows for a much more precise hole to be made and gives you greater control. The speed of an electric drill means sometimes they’re harder to control and can do more damage than you’d like.

Portable
Just like a cordless drill, a hand drill can be used anywhere and doesn’t require electricity to work. Better yet, they don’t require batteries either, so there’s no risk of running out of power.

I love this response, because a lot of thought, time and effort went into creating it. And I can’t really argue with it, much. :)

Dutch bikes are still crap for most other types of riding though.

Ask yourself this – what happens when you’re in the middle of some important piece of work on your computer, and it suddenly crashes.
Now think about an EV suffering a full system crash on a busy motorway, on a dark winter evening.
And don’t say it wouldn’t happen, because it can, and it has. Even the infotainment system on a car can crash, leaving the driver with zero ability to tell what car is doing; it happened to a nearly new Mercedes at work, as it left the workshop the entire dash display went black, making it impossible to drive the car.
I made a deliberate decision to buy a car with the minimum reliance of fancy electronics – it has a proper handbrake, not an electronic one, the dash is fully analog, the only digital info is a small central display, and the screen for radio, satnav and reversing camera.

Don’t ever fly on a modern jet aircraft or travel on the Tube, and make sure you keep all your money in cash in a safety deposit box or under your bed, because they’re much safer than banks which rely almost entirely on electronic communications to manage your accounts.

And the most common cause of mechanical failure with cars, is tyre failure. I hope you don’t use pneumatic tyres on your cars…

****.

I mwet a chap who cycled his singlespeed trad dutch bike from the Netherlands to northern Norway and back

I think someone ride up Alpe d’Huez on a London hire bike. Doesn’t mean it’s a good tool for the job. I use a powered drill because using a hand drill is really quite stupid.

Who?

In my experience, Dutch bikes are best kept to the Netherlands.

This. They are fine for short journeys on flat bike paths, but dreadful for anything else really.

Laughs quietly at the thought that Norfolk is flat!

Norfolk, earlier:

I’m not a big fan of the “Sir, sir, he just called Sharon a biffer” tendency, but I guess some people are.

Perhaps Rosa Parks should have just kept quiet…

In life – if you act like an entitled arsehole you deserve to be pilloried along whatever lines are available. Anything else is just a bit, well, snowflaky.

But that’s exactly how you’re behaving.

@bridges Check out the Hermes branded watches for pricing silliness! Nice to have but not that nice!

I really don’t get the Hermès brand at all. It seems little more than a brand which acts as a signifier of wealth. I get that some people like their scarves. I have absolutely no idea why a pair of jogging bottoms needs to cost £1370 though.

https://www.hermes.com/uk/en/product/jogging-pants-with-leather-detail-H167510HA76LA/

Especially considering you can get leisurewear for a lot less. Seems **** tax is very high these days.

Apple, on the other hand, do at least make very high quality products which work well and last for a decent length of time. Unlike most other computer brands. So I can recognise the ‘value’ in their ‘ordinary’ products. And if there are fools with more money than sense, then taking it form them is a sport.

– A photo of someone running the London Marathon for you that has say a sex shop in the background

That really makes me want to open a sex shop on the Mall.

I doubt I’d get permission though. :(

And I don’t care what you make of that comment.

Perhaps the moderators will.

Similarly, I called her a fat cow.

Tbh I’m pissed off at the number of biffers around that are entitled, selfish, anti-mask, lazy, know all ****.

Mrs ward is full of them none of which seem to want to do anything to help their situations, it’s everyone else’s fault, and the NHS should fix them.

It’s not normally my nature to call her a cow, but **** it, I don’t really care about people who have zero respect themselves.

So much judgment; so little self-awareness.

I have no idea what your opinions are on the three examples because you never told us what your opinions are.

I was more interested in why you think what you do about the three examples. As you’re one that seems to find such behaviour offensive (unless it fits in with your own set of ‘rules’). You still haven’t really explained why certain actions are offensive, but others aren’t, though. That’s what I’d like to hear.

The argument has been made by myself and others several times on this thread. Try reading it again and understanding this time.

I have, and my ‘understanding’ is that I have a different opinion to yours.

With Grayson Perry there is no ‘joke’.

With Pantomime it depends on whether the sum total of the joke is ‘I’m a man wearing a dress. It’s funny because men don’t wear dresses.’

With the rugby team there is no question the sum total of the ‘joke’ was ‘We’re men wearing dresses. It’s funny because men don’t wear dresses.’ Unless there is some hidden meaning to their actions I missed?

Seems that you’re applying selective rules in order to justify your own views, rather than actually considering the whole topic more evenly. I have different opinions to yours, regarding all three examples. Who is ‘right’?

But that’s how societal norms change, isn’t it?

Of course. And long may that continue. Society needs to evolve, not become stagnant.

So, no, I hadn’t really thought about whether panto dames or, indeed, rugby players dressing as women for charity, was ‘fine’ or not until this thread came up. Reading it, and especially boriselbrus’s posts has made me think about it, and come to the opinion that it’s probably not.

So do you now consider, in the 30 minutes since I raised pantomimes as potentially problematic that you’ve had time to give the issue the amount of thought and consideration it deserves, in order to come up with an informed and balanced opinion?

This thread perhaps unsurprisingly has developed into the usual internet clever clogs with absolutely no lived experience trying to score points over one another.

Making assumptions about the ‘experience’ of others is not only ignorant, it’s also potentially dangerous. Why are you doing so?

All you really need to do is read Boriselbrus’s post and digest what was actually being said. That’s it. It tells you what you really need to know. Thank you.

Actually; I prefer to take information form as many different sources as possible, such as from people I know IRL who are trans, from reading/watching/listening to material by a plethora of writers on such matters, from men, from women, from everyone, in fact.
Boriselbrus’ account is just one of many. It doesn’t define the debate.

He wasn’t expressing his opinions. He was trying to invalidate the lived experiences of another forum member

Be mindful that this is in YOUR opinion. It isn’t in mine, or in that of others.

Well, you raised it about ten minutes ago, so I’ve not thought it through that much, no.

The traditions of pantomime have existed for quite a while, longer than either of us have been alive. So you have had some time to be thinking about it.

Or perhaps it never registered as problematic, because nobody told you it was?

Is pantomime offensive? My gut is leaning more towards yes but it’s probably going to depend on how it’s done.

Please elaborate. Be a better use of your time than abusing people, anyway.

Should a business or charity associate themselves with this rugby team? Absolutely not.

Should Grayson Perry keep doing what they’re doing? Absolutely.

I’d really love to hear the rationale behind this argument.

Like I said above; if someone chooses to dresses as a woman because that’s what they’d like to wear, smashing, whether they’re a jovial soul or a miserable get. If they do it because they think that a man dressed as a woman is, in and of itself, funny, that’s not really on.

So it’s all about YOUR opinions then? What about other people’s?

As for the pantomime stuff, honestly, I’m not sure. My gut feel is it falls within my ‘Mrs Browns Boys defence’ above.

So you haven’t really thought it through much then?

I’m desperately trying to find Yentl offensive…

You win. I can’t be **** bothered.

But:

Why? Cos you’re in a position of weakness? Not a very nice place to be, is it?

?

Bit of a poor argument there bridges, waaaay too absolutist. If something’s not white it doesn’t necessarily have to be black. Try being more fluid in your outlook

Oh I am. I was just questioning your application of a set of ‘rules’ that make something ok or not. Seemed quite binary to me…

What about principal boys and dames, in pantomime?

No problem at all, he’s not ‘dressed as a woman’ for laughs or to belittle anyone.

So anyone who puts on ‘womens’ clothing has to be deadly serious and mustn’t be jovial in any way? So what you’re basically saying, is that as long as it adheres to YOUR rules, it’s ok?

Should I, as a man, find Yentl offensive?

What do people think about that well-known MTBer, Grayson Perry?

No, keep it open. Such discussions are well overdue.

Trans rights groups are particularly vociferous on social media. I can understand why charities might choose to avoid a potential social media storm.

Unfortunately, the whole debate surrounding Gender identity etc, has been poisoned by a small number of individuals who are almost always quite young, extremely opinionated, yet also quite ignorant. People who seek to impose their own views as correct, yet not listen to anyone else and scream ‘phobe!’ at anyone who dares question them, whilst dismissing anyone with a different opinion as ‘wrong’. Cultural cancellers. As a result, many people have got their undergarments in a twist, and are desperately trying to be nice’ and not upset anyone. Trouble is, there’s always going to be someone who is upset by something. That’s life. But the real problem now is that many women’s voices are being drowned out by hysterical screeching from an extremely vocal and abusive (and sometimes violent) minority. And then many people who haven’t thought it through all that much (because it really wasn’t considered an ‘issue’ by most in society until very recently) suddenly nail their colours to a mast without really knowing in what direction the ship is sailing.

And here’s a great example:

Its not a million miles from blacking up is it?

It is. It really is. Go have a read about drag artists and the Stonewall riots.