You are aware that people displaying attitudes such as yours with your constant vocal virtue-signalling, permanent moral outrage and Taliban-esque demands for moral purity are an absolute gift to the Tories.

And here we go…

What he said isn’t racist in the mind of any sane person

A common tactic of yours, is to ascribe negative characteristics to people you disagree with. Here, it’s implying that anyone concerned about racism is ‘insane’. You refer to Corbyn as ‘Grandad’; ageist. Ascribing mental illness to ‘loony lefties’ is another favourite of yours. It appears you’re incapable of actually engaging and debating effectively, and need to resort to putting others down. Why?

As I said to TJ when he took the same approach, by hysterically yelling ‘RACIST!!‘ at everyone who even raises these issues, you are far more of the problem than they are.

Is easily answered by this:

There’s no problem expressing concerns about multiple occupancy households and covid so long as it’s put in the context of poverty, discrimination etc.

But Burnham didn’t do that. He knew exactly what he was doing; appealing to the fearful, by invoking xenophobia. As BillMC rightfully points out; high density occupation is down to issues such as poverty and deprivation, more than any ‘cultural’ considerations. But Burnham didn’t mention that. He could easily have spoken about high density occupation in the context of poverty and deprivation, but he didn’t. He only mentioned race and culture. Xenophobia.

you are far more of the problem than they are

So; being critical of racism is worse than actual racism? Right. Ok.

but the part about people of asian heritage tending to live more densely in multi-generational households is just factually true, and seems obviously likely to be a factor in spreading Covid.

Just Asian people? Not other groups? Only Asians, then?

What about the dog-whistling over ‘immigration’ then? How do you explain that?

Trouble is, people are too quick to overlook the faults in a person they admire/like/support. Just look at the love for Blair on here. But Burnham is just another populist who will jump on whatever convenient bandwagon suits his career ambitions. He buggered off to a safe job away from Westminster politics, once he realised he was out of his depth there. He’s most definitely not a man for a fight. Gobbing off about the Covid lockdown ‘unfairness’ was easy; he had nothing to lose (and was only part of a wider group saying the same anyway). He’ll be off soon enough, when something better paid comes along.

@kayak23 ; I was thinking about using Ash for the above lounger project. Because it has natural flexibilty and strength, so might take bending more easily than something like Oak. I think the laminations idea is probably the best solution, to avoid potential issues as you discovered. Ash may offer the springiness in the upper section, that adds to comfort. Plus it’s a beautiful, light wood. The only major issue I can forsee with the lounger design, is that a steam box would have to be very long indeed, to house the long lower and upper sections. So I thought about possibly doing the pieces in sections. Could that work? Simple lap joints, bolted together? Perhaps not as elegant though.

Pricing is particularly challenging currently, materials are in short supply and prices are going through the roof. My local merchant is putting its prices up 40% in July.

Recently bought some more Ash for my next project; the 40% increase is about right. Brexit has meant that paperwork for imported timbers is now so much more complicated, that entire shipments are being delayed at ports, as everything needs to be crossed off before they can be unloaded. This is only adding to prices. And even British grown timber has increased in price, along with demand. Plus you’ve got the big increase in people doing DIY/hobbys, because of Covid, so it’s just a nightmare. I’m literally buying tools I think I’ll probably need at some point in the future, because stocks are so low/non existent. On the upside, perhaps more people will gain making skills, and we can become a nation of producers rather than just consumers, once again. Wishful thinking…

So you are making it up because you dislike Burnham?

What was the dog whistle?

Which is shorthand for ‘there aren’t any facts whatsoever to support the nonsense I’m spouting, but who needs facts when you have poetry? Peoples Poetry’

This is so, so easy:

“Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester in Lancashire, North England, also said that the spike in COVID-19 cases had been impacted by gatherings “in multi-generational households”.When the BBC interviewer asked if he was referring predominantly to the Asian population of Greater Manchester, Burnham said: “Yes, I do mean that.””

Not even ‘dog whistle’. Blatant xenophobia. Burnham is just another ‘blame others’ politician. Even a senior tory agrees with me:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ken-clarke-andy-burnham-paler-version-nigel-farage-following-anti-immigration-comments-a7468571.html

I have posted exactly this info earlier in this thread. Which is why this must be so embarrassing for Binners; but then, we know Binners isn’t a fan of actual facts. Which version of the Rose and Crown story is is this week Binners; is it the one where you gallantly fought all the racists and kicked them out of your local pub, telling them never to return? I can’t keep up… :D

Really? Link please because I don’t recall this

Everything’s been covered already in this thread. And you can do your own research. As for Manchester; the population of London is around 8 million, the South East region in total around 20 million. So nearly a 3rd of the entire population of the UK. Not a great idea to be openly hostile to such a large proportion of the electorate. Burnham simply isn’t intelligent enough to understand that dog-whistle politics will only ever lead to more division, but then, he’s not interested in much more than his own career, so I doubt that bothers him. He’s a B team player, and nothing more.

Burnham is going nowhere

Oh yes. This much is evident. He’s reached his level.

@bridges was this question directly for me or was it just a wider question to the assembled masses with too much time on their hands ;)? (just wondering as you quoted my post and not fully au fait with forum posting/responding nuances)

No; it’s aimed at those who deludedly think that Labour sticking to the centre right, and ignoring all the ‘lefties’ and everyone else, will ever achieve any form of necessary societal change. They won’t. So, if they’re happy with that, they can simply vote tory and be on the ‘winning side’. No need to worry about who the Labour leader will be, that way. Life would be much simpler for them.

Kayak, that is awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to create such a detailed and informative reply! So much to take away and think about. Brilliant.

Very nice. Kayak; can you talk us through the steam bending process? I’m assuming you have a fair bit of space for the steaming equipment. I’m really into the idea of trying this, to replicate a Charlotte Perriand style recliner/lounger chair, but the idea of using loads of steam quite frankly terrifies me!

Such a shame that so much effort in these discussions comes back to the ‘my dad’s harder than your dad’ or ‘my dicks bigger than you dick’ need to win. Put that effort into changing society and we might just make a change worth making? Just a thought. Expecting incineration imminently…

If you remove the constant attention seeking posts by one particular individual, and the subsequent responses (seriously folks, why bother?), there is perhaps a glimmer of sensible discussion, but hey; this is UK politics right now. But the general mood that seems to be emanating from the Armresters on here, seems to be that the status quo isn’t really too bad, and that deep down, they just want more of the same, but perhaps with a slightly less nasty taste. There certainly doesn’t seem to be any real desire for actual societal change, as people keep offering up the likes of Andy Burnham* as Labour leader. Which, whilst momentarily amusing, speaks of a deeper malaise in UK politics, that there is simply no appetite within the Labour elite, for a proper fight. Gutless. So it begs the question; if you don’t really want proper change, why not simply vote tory? That way, you can be on the ‘winning’ side, and get to hurl as much abuse at ‘lefties’ as you want. And we’ll all be that much more divided than we already are.

*Burnham’s ‘blame the darkies for Covid’, and ‘it’s all London’s fault’ type rhetoric may appeal greatly to a significant number of people, but Burnham’s recent ranting about Scotland show that he’s a small town boy with small town ideas, with no idea of how to actually unite people, and would be even more useless than Starmer. If such a thing were possible.

Apology accepted. See; feels better now, doesn’t it? Well done.

My apologies

This is becoming a regular occurrence on here, people apologising to me. :D

This is not sabre rattling, it’s an engineering test.

It’s sabre rattling. It’s showing off how mighty the US war machine is. Well, trying to, at least. The veil has slipped, somewhat, however.

Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were much worse. Millions upon millions of Eastern Europeans and Asians died because of them. The Blitz and the fighting in France were child’s play in comparison. The Soviet Union was also much worse. Yes, the U.S. is often problematic but they are far from the worst behaved country in modern history.

By ‘modern’, I meant in the last 50-60 years or so. So by that metric, they are far and away the very worst nation on Earth for waging terror, war and destruction. That cannot be argued against. I think arguing that simply because less civilians have died as a result of US imperialist belligerence, means the US isn’t as ‘bad’, is like saying one serial killer isn’t as bad as another, because they have less victims. The global effect of US warmongering has affected far more people than the 2 world wars combined, in far more countries and regions on Earth. US foreign ‘intervention’ is still killing and maiming people today, in places like Laos and Cambodia, because of the indiscriminate use of landmines decades ago, weapons banned under international law. US made weapons are used daily in conflicts around the globe. But continue to defend the US if you must; they are, after all, our ‘friends’.

Labour supporters just love never having a chance of power, all that high ground and no actual responsibility.

I’m not a Labour supporter or voter. So your point was…?

Rich, privileged, influential right winger joins Labour. That’s right up Starmer’s alley.

NeoLabour: For the Few; **** the Many.

It’s very interesting that US military sabre rattling passes without much comment in the UK media, but if North Korea (a nation which justifiably feels itself under threat from a belligerent foreign power, regardless of its own vile regime) does the same, you can bet there’ll be plenty of reasons why this is so terrible.

Perhaps the US should concentrate more on the issues within its own borders, than be worrying so much about trying desperately to maintain its grip on global power. China could turn the US into glass in minutes, there really is no defence against that. The biggest threat to global peace and stability is in fact the US. The fact that China, Russia and nations such as Iran and North Korea have the capability of striking back against the West, is something the US has to take responsibility for; no other nation has caused so much war, death, destruction and misery as the US, in modern history. Yet it can’t even solve its own domestic problems. Yay. Go USA.

As someone who uses ‘full frame’ cameras, and lenses costing even more than an iPhone (!); I personally wouldn’t bother with anything below something like the Sony RX100 models, if I did want something ‘compact’. Because as others have already said; many ‘phones these days are very capable indeed, as ‘snappy’ cameras. If you’re going to carry a ‘phone around with you anyway, why have another thing to carry as well? A ‘cheap’ compact won’t offer any significant advantages over a ‘phone; the next real step up is to something with a larger sensor, such as the Sony RX100 range. You already have the tool you need, so perhaps it would be better to address the issues you have with screens instead?

You do know that Gregg’s sell salads? You don’t have to buy baked goods.

I’ve only ever been in two Greggs; one in Newcastle, and one somewhere else.

I Saw No Salads.

Lol! Well done. Very good. Thanks for calling.:D

Stay on the line, and our producer will get your details to get you that book token.

Ooh no that is good.

As you seem to be having trouble

No I’m not having trouble. But thanks anyway. That’s very kind of you.

I’m currently working on my profile, Binners. Trying to get loads of shots of myself in places like Gail’s (it’s like Greggs, only posh and with actual food), Divertimenti and Yotam Ottolenghi’s little place on Upper St. It’s a hard life, but I do it for the millions out there who need inspiration and positive reinforcement.

This is my problem, because marxist economic theory (and please save the mansplainy lessons, I know what it is) is not much different to capitalism in that it’s still assumes people will work, mostly in shit, unfulfilling, boring jobs that they’d rather not be doing, in the interests of some ‘greater good’. For capitalists that greater good is the power and wealth of a small elite, for socialists it’s the state and the things it can provide. Both these viewpoints are redundant in a world where the work we do, and the things we consume as a result threaten our very existence. You’re banging on about class warfare and materialism when the rock on which we all live is dying. It’s bloody stupid.

Hmm. An interesting analysis. The difference being, however, that Socialism does at least call for a better society for ALL, rather than just for an elite few. Fact is that there are many boring, unfulfilling jobs. The vast majority of them, probably. Someone has to do them. The main problem with the current capitalist system, is that it helps perpetuate that horrible class system you keep wanting to not talk about, as it reinforces the notion of people divided in terms of socioeconomic classes. I suppose a ‘better’ system would be where we all share the nasty jobs more equally; maybe some bankers and Guardian editors and journos could roll their sleeves up and work digging the roads, or emptying the bins, or perhaps just helping clean their own **** offices. Just an idea…

We’re not arguing

Ha ha! :D Very, very good. You really are much funnier than that other bloke.

Christ, you’re not very good at this, are you?

Oh I’m brilliant. You’re the one with your knickers in a twist, all wound up and hurling thinly veiled insults around. Without actually understanding things. Such as irony. ;)

Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Duck.

Here’s OJ talking absolute perfect sense (just for balance, like. because it seems some people are a bit upset about OJ being criticised):

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/owen-jones-far-right-extremism-assault/

The attack on OJ was beyond vile. But he’s spot on that extremist ‘hate preachers’ need to be tackled and brought to account.

Maybe something to do with being assaulted for his political views/sexuality eh?

Yes, that is a valid point and may certainly have an affect on how OJ moves around and the places he chooses to visit. I accept that. But I meant more how he suffers that typical middle class trait of not being able to fully empathise with others, because their own experience is quite ‘contained’. For example, I wouldn’t expect OJ to be able to interact with and relate to people outside of his own social group as well as someone like Paul Mason, who has moved in much more diverse circles during his life and career.

Oh teh ironing (as the young kids probably don’t say) says the man with the lightest of hair triggers.

No please; don’t stop there, why not make insinuations about my mental health? Seems that is a legitimate area for comedy, after all. Again with the ad hominems; proves you’ve lost the argument. An argument on the internet. Go you! :D

Oh? do lets have some examples of the times he’s actually stolen verbatim copy from other people and passed it off as his own work. I’d be surprised if a prominent journo could get away with it TBH.

It’s more the way he’ll do an article for the Guardian, which will involve issues already discussed/reported by others. So perhaps not direct plagiarism, but definitely letting others do the hard work.

This simply isn’t true. He makes more effort to speak to, and mix with, people in the “real world” than most other column writers, from any paper.

Lol! I know people who know him, and he’s really not one for venturing far from comfort. But you’re missing the point; which is that there are far more voices out there than just OJ’s. But OJ is very skilled at using his privilege to be heard, over others. Which illustrates the point about middle class elitism; if you continue assuming you know better than others, because of your class, wealth and privilege, then you will run into trouble. OJ is fine; he makes the right noises, I’ve nothing against him and he does seem to genuinely care.I’ve already said that. So don’t be so touchy.

Let’s not forget that it was elitist left of the party (the likes of millionaires like Seamus Milne, and Union Bosses) who managed to persuade Northern voters to turn in huge numbers to the Tories in the last election.

Very good. Do you also write for GB News? :D

He’s a journalist, it’s his actual job to provide content for Guardian readers

And that’s the issue. He can’t speak to other groups, because he lacks the experience of living and moving outside of his safe little middle class ‘bubble’. OJ will be found in trendy restaurants in Islington and Highgate*, not working mens clubs in Barnsley or Bolton. Someone like Mason will have moved around a lot more, and had interactions with a far more diverse range of people. We need to hear from a wider range of voices, not just those the Guardian editors deem acceptable and safe.

*I’ve actually seen him in a cafe even I wouldn’t eat in. Far too posh for me! I walked past and went to the much cheaper (and better) place down the road. ;)

The key with drug use is education. Kids will be kids; I was, I did all sorts. I’ve come out of it the other end, pretty much unscathed. My worst experiences were with alcohol, by a very long way. I wouldn’t suggest regular use of LSD is a good idea, nor habitual Skunk smoking, and I’ve certainly seen a few ‘casualties’, but alcoholism is by far the worst drug in our society, definitely the most destructive, and it’s legal! It’s all about knowing about how to use SAFELY. I was lucky enough to have access to excellent information and advice, so knew about looking after myself, and others. Lecturing on the sins of drug use probably won’t have any positive effect but getting your son educated, may well be of great benefit to himself and others. As mentioned above; talk to Frank.

By all means have a go at middle class tories who can’t see past their range rover and second home in the Dordogne, but Owen Jones really isn’t someone the left should be having a go at

Not ‘having a go’ at OJ, just that what he is good at, is creating products for the consumption of Guardian readers. And in fact, many Guardian readers do fit the ‘range rover and second home in the Dordogne’ profile; certainly, several of its senior editors do! And yes, it is also (allegedly) read in the Rose and Crown, Ramsbottom. Albeit by just one person.

OJ tends to bend with the prevailing wind; he jumped on the pro Corbyn bandwagon once he realised there was capital to be made for his own brand image. But in my opinion, he rarely says anything original, he’s more of a clever plagiarist. But if we are to engage with the issues he’s raised in that article above, then I find it a lot more helpful to read something like this article by Paul Mason, which examines a lot more deeply, the nuances of the situation in places like Batley and Spen:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/06/threat-labour-defeat-batley-and-spen-shows-party-facing-perfect-storm

The consensus here, is that Labour isn’t listening to it’s voters. And losing them. And this is pretty much all down to the elitist right of the party, who are all far more about personal wealth and power, than they are about representing the needs of their party’s members and voters. We saw with the London mayoral elections of 2000, that the Blairite choice of Frank Dobson was hugely unpopular, and resulted in a humiliating defeat for Blair, in spite of his best efforts to rig the elections in his favour. Labour realised then that they had to cede to democracy, and that was probably the moment Blair realised he needed a decent exit strategy. But subsequent Labour figures haven’t learned from that massive failure, and here we are, with supposedly intelligent people wondering why ‘thick’ people won’t vote for them…

Whatever you are taking I suggest lowering the dose, a lot. But do it gradually though otherwise it could get even worse.

Nice. Insinuating mental illness/substance abuse now, simply because you don’t agree with what I say. Incapable of actually engaging intelligently, so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Classy.

I pity you.

I know some of you will turn your nose up at anything written by Owen Jones

The problem with Owen Jones, is that whilst he’s a clever lad, and does seem to genuinely give a shit about others, he never really comes up with anything original. Simply rehashes stuff that other people have said, often weeks, even months previously. Creates a sort of ‘Guardianised’ version for the metropolitan middle class elite. And Binners. But he shows his true white middle class blinkered privilege with comments like this:

“Muslim party members resentfully mutter that candidates from their community were overlooked”

Which is pretty much the same sort of attitude many of the Labour elite have, towards the Minorities. They’ll make the right sort of noises about fighting racism, how unfair it all is, but they don’t want to actually live next door to anyone who is a bit different. See also that ‘Funny Tinge’ idiot whose name I can’t even be bothered to remember. Sums up the elite’s attitude towards many of their voters; ‘just do what we decide is good for you’. Way to go. That’s working out so well, isn’t it?

Ah, good old Gorgeous George Galloway.

I had a lot of time for Galloway, when he bloodied the noses of the Blairites in Tower Hamlets. My wife was teaching in the borough at the time, in a school with a predominantly Bangladeshi intake, and the incumbent at the time, Oona King, routinely overlooked real needs of local people, particularly the minority groups and most vulnerable, in order to court the developers at Canary Wharf and Docklands. Something needed to change, and it did, and the nice white middle class Labour elite were incensed and declared war on the ordinary working people of that borough. Still, Oona and her friends did very well out of property in the borough, so that’s all great. Galloway, sadly, then went on a path of self-destruction, by making some incredibly stupid career choices, then descending into a grotesque caricature trotting out anti-Semitic tropes to appeal to his largely Muslim* fan base; mostly people from poorer, deprived areas with a paucity of educational provision and opportunities. But that just revealed further the extent of actual (not imagined) anti-Semitism in our society, and the issues which many were rightly extremely concerned with, and which the Labour right gleefully leapt on in order to weaponise against all on the left. Galloway is a mendacious, manipulative ****, who has a hell of a lot to answer for. It’s depressing how many are taken in by his ‘charm’. But there are still many in the upper echelons of the party, who are just as xenophobic towards other minority groups; see aforementioned Funny Tinge Woman.

*Just feel I should point out that I don’t believe all Muslims are inherently anti-Semitic, any more than the rest of the population; the situation with the Israeli oppression of Palestinians is extremely emotive and polarising, and many Muslims will feel an affinity towards their ‘brethren’, rather than see that it’s a situation that needs to examined far more in terms of its myriad nuances. But I wondered earlier if cancelling his appearance at an Iftar event would come back to bite Starmer on the bum, and it seems it has. It was seen by many, as him favouring one group over another, and he allowed himself to be played by those who seek to divide and rule. He’s clueless and out of his depth. And losing support. Will Starmer be the ‘leader’ who oversees the death of the Labour party?

The biggest surprise is that the managerial competence we all assumed he’d have seems to be entirely absent. Clearly running the CPS, filled with professional and obedient staff is no preparation for running a party of largely self-interested and ruthlessly ambitious MPs, and a membership of consisting mostly of young idealists with dreams of a radically different world to what we have now.

Corbyn was a leader for the membership, Starmer a leader for the PLP (not even that TBH, more a leader for a blairite cabal). Until labour find someone who can do both they’re f*****. If the schism between the PLP and the members can’t be resolved, then labour should split or disband. Let the MPs go and do a SDP/Change UK, and let the membership and wider movement start afresh with new candidates who are part of their communities.

Spot on. Pretty much what I’ve been saying all along. But I’d add that the membership also contains a lot of old school ‘lefties’ who are sick to the back teeth of the Blairites/neoliberals, and who despair at the direction the party has taken. I think unless Labour do find a new messiah, a schism is inevitable. The wealthy elite of the party would most likely retain the ‘brand’, but it would then at least create a blank slate for a new, more centre left social democrat party with greater representation from the ordinary electorate. Really needs to happen in my opinion. But the neoliberal Blairites would then up in political no-man’s land, and no longer be relevant. They know this, which is why they are desperate to cling onto ‘power’, even if it means **** over millions of ordinary working people. ****.

I prefer the obsession with the Rose and Crown, Ramsbottom. It’s far more interesting and entertaining.

Boris is very easy to dislike, but really he’s only a puppet

Ooh, careful… ;)

Vegan ‘bacon’. I mean, wtf?

I’d even take Tony Blair…

Into a back room and waterboard the ****?

If Blair was in charge now, I think we’d be in exactly the position we are now. Possibly even worse.

Does nobody have a job anymore or are they using all their holiday time to shout at people in the street?

That’s this forum in a nutshell, going by the amount of time some people seem to spend on here. Night and day! Lordy.

I don’t believe you are an anti-semite

And finally. Why did you persist with your nonsense then? I’ll take that as your apology, because that’s probably as good as I’m going to get. Well done.

It’s a pity that you’re so invested in your narrative that you continue to peddle this falsehood.

it would be beneficial for you to stop and have a think

:D You’re funny. Deluded, but funny.

this is about interpretation and not about fact.

No; it is actually about fact. The fact that you’re wrong, end of. It really is that simple.

My interpretation is..

Wrong. I’ve tried to explain this, but you fail to understand/don’t want to listen at all. Thus exemplifying the problems we face in our democracy today. You really WANT me to be an anti-Semite, but as I’ve stated earlier, doing so without facts, is just making you and others look really really foolish. As you cannot prove what you claim, I suggest you just go away now. Because you’re only making yourself look more stupid. Thanks.