Thought the man was very dignified last night and frankly played a blinder. Pretty much kicked all the "hes hanging on for grim death" wallers in to the long grass in one move.

FPTP is simple, draws parties towards the centre and produces strong + decisive government – a good thing IMO. It also denies a parliamentary voice to every margin-walking dickhead with an axe to grind, also a good thing IMO.

How wrong can you be in a couple of sentences?

1) First past the post skews elections towards right or left.
2) For strong decisive Government read dictatorship which is the natural conclusion of that being desirable.
3) The margin walking dickheads are in fact in the Labour/Tory parties, who by the token of their politics are the marginal parties.
4) The majority of people are middle of the road, and the only way to get them properly represented is to get rid of an electoral system which was aimed at satisfying the two warring parties in Cromwells time.
5) If the electorate choose to have a hung parliament or a coalition what is wrong with that choice? (Take care refer to 2 above)

So the politicians choose the government, not the people.

Lets get a few things straight.

1) Democracy implies majority rule. We have never had that in this country
2) The first past the post system skews election results. Thats is the whole point of it.
3) The politicians choose the system, not the people. Shockingly it suits the politicians just fine.
4) The people chose not to elect a party as an outright winner, so yes, in fact they did choose to have this situation.
5) It is now incumbent on the politicians to work with that decision.

I cannot believe the arrogance of wanting to ignore what the people of this country have said very firmly in this election. It is simply that they are not satisfied with any of the major parties and they want change. Not the same old, same old rapped up in slick PR as change.

You think this is bad? Wait until/if we get some sort of PR.

The main reason for the intransigence currently is that Clegg and Cameron can and do agree, as they can at No 10, its just that the "jobs for the boys society" down the road, don't like it, as they know that their jobs for life will be under threat with PR. Now explain to me why that would be a bad thing.

Before you know it, major political parties will have to cosy up to extremist loons to form a government.

If you look at a normal distribution curve is is self evident that 80% of any population is likely to be near the middle. Currently under the first past the post system we get extremist governments. Hopefully once people realise that they can get a moderate government elected they will start to vote honestly for what they actually want, rather than tactically for what they dislike least. Most people I know hate the constant clash between left and right and simply want rid of dogma.

Either way, the person/party coming third should not hold so much sway.

Why not? I do beleive that is precisely what the electorate voted for. Or do the plebs with the votes not count?

Nor should a multiply disgraced, unelected conman.

I totally agree, so why is it that Cameron doesn't see that, and keeps banging on about his right to govern? Stop listening to the rhetoric, and get with the programme. The population voted for "None of the Above". Now the twunts have to sort it out between them..

North of Ipswich is time warp central. Very pleasant olde worlde.

Do it.

It's a no lose situation for the LibDems ………haven't they done well out of our unfair electoral system ?

Really? So getting 57 seats, i.e. 8% having polled 23% of the votes cast is a no lose situation. The reality is that the unafir voting system is a self fulfilling nightmare, because the electorate realise its virtually impossible for the liberals to win, so they simply move their votes so that they are "not wasted".

We have a political system in this country which was profound and world leading some 400 years ago, but is completely archaic now. It is steeped in the concepts of rank and privilige, and creates this utterly devisive society. If you think in terms of Labour = Roundheads, and Tory = Cavalier you won't be far off understanding the gist of it. The thing was set up to bring about a move from a robber Baron/Aristocratic style government to a "democracy" without the total overthrow of the aristocracy French stylee. In its day that was far-sighted and perhaps even sensible. The world has moved on though, and the concept of Parliamentry privilige, intended to stop democratically elected representatives being offed to the Tower and so forth is way past its sell by date, (not to mention abused), as are the concepts of a Royal Family, class, and inherited status.

Please God let them agree to change the system, so that we can move on and maybe catch up with the best of the rest of the world.

Which begs the obvious question …… 😯

Regarding the English/Scots debate. Being a half caste myself, I find it a bit weird.

South of the Border: The issue doesn't exist. People don't realy see the Scots as anything other than part of the same community

North of the Border: Its a big issue possibly exacerbated by the fact that the English just don't get it.

I live in a Tory safe seat… by a massive majority (Tim Yeo)

Normally I spoil my ballot paper None of the above stylee, but its going to be Lib Dem this time.

Actually saw the pompous twunt out canvassing in my village this time. First time he has condescended to so so in the 27 years I've lived there, (my ward normally returns Liberal councillers) so obviously been told to get his fat blue backside into action or something. Worried?? Whaderyerekcon???

I cannot tell a lie…. I willed it to happen and have been doing so for some time….. it could only get better if it turns out that someone tied the banner to the tower before they took off!

Incidentally has anyone seen the new leader yet? Lord someone or other… he makes Farage look positively switched on. Personally I'm all for them, this lot leaving Dave's lot has hit Dave in the Ballot box and lessens the impact of both. Political Darwensim in action

The real point here is the message that is sent out regarding how people drive. I am old enough to remember the time when drinking and driving was not seen to be anything other than a bit of a laugh as long as you didn't overdo it…(i.e. kill someone). That attitude has been turned on its head by the Government becuase the law was stiffened up etc etc.

The current situation with cyclists is the same as the old drinking situation, it is seen to be acceptable. As long as that is the case, you will have drivers overtaking you on every blind corner etc ad infinitum. That is the point, and it needs dealing with. Currently cyclists are fair game on the road and its simply not good enough. That will not change until it is politically expedient to deal with it in law. As long as cyclists argue amongst themselves about, what is in my view, a clear inequity then nothing will happen.

C'mon everyone lighten up thats a quality rant by juan. Precisely what this forum needs more of IMHO. Power to yer elbow fella

LOL ……. thats precisely the sort of thing that would make you check to see if your mike was still on afterwards, especially on the last day of polling! Hope all 3 candidates saw it and had pause for thought as a result. Regardless of party politics, its a very good idea thet every now and again that they get confronted with the reality on the ground that their assorted dogmas impact upon.

I can do Wiki too 🙂

TJ : Manslaughter…. The whole premise of which is its not intentional

Our law is based around trying people for their actions not for the consequences of those actions

TJ, I have to take issue with you over this statement. It is clearly not the case. Did Peter Sutcliffe get charged with hammering bits of wood into his victims bodily orifices? Did he get charged with whacking a prossy over the head with a hammer? No he got charged with Murder, which was self evidently the outcome of those actions.

I have no idea at all where you could draw that conclusion from, nor how you might apply it to this situation. Obviously, killing someone whilst driving carelessly and speeding is more serious than simply driving carelssly or speeding without incident, and sentencing will generally reflect that. It is utter tosh to say otherwise….. except it would appear when it applies to cyclists being hit by cars.

For my money the law is a reflection of the population that it applies to, and their predjudices, needs and views. In this instance, it is simply that the vast majority of the population are drivers, and to penalise drivers heavily is very politically unpopular. On the opposite side of the coin, whislt there are at least as many cyclists if not more, they are not a cohesive group, nor represented by big business interests such as the motor companies. Not only that, even within their own community there are those who seek to justify and maintain this clear and obvious inequity.

In short, until cyclists actually get together and become a cohesive and powerful voice frankly nobody in authority gives damn, and statements like that above just exacerbates that situation……

…….and breath

Very interesting thread.

Seems like many people are suffering from shortness of breath and wheeziness at the moment. Personally, I've been searching for breath on climbs to the point of actually getting quite panicy and lightheaded due to shortness of oxygen.

All seems a bit odd to me. Is anyone else wondering if it might have something to do with a certain dust cloud, I was actually wondering about investing in a commuter mask to see if it had any effect.

Difference here is that in fact the "minority" party is liley to have 1/3rd of the vote approx.

Personally I think it is a given that the majority of people in the UK are moderate, unfortunately, our political system is a throwback to the roundheads and cavaliers and is entirely unrepresentative of the majority, so bring on the change I say.

If the tories get in would it be a well hung parliament given that they are led by an enormous cock?

Well to be fair the thought crossed my mind as I was listening to them claiming victory from last night, and I got to thinking, how could you carry out an election campaign starting from a 10 point lead held for some time, cock that up and then call it a victory? ….. the thought process then followed on to wheres George?

Now presuming that hes the blame hound, and given that he's not been about, you have to draw the conclusion that its Dave thats cocked it up, and far from winning, hes blown a substantial lead and at best turned it into either a marginal win/lose or a hung parliament. Or am I missing something?

Company I used to work for got taken over by an American outfit. There was some suggestion of buyer backhanders, and therefore I was informally suspended for nearly 3 months, i.e. I had to come to work every day and then sit in my office and do nowt and speak to no one. At the end of that and having visited every supplier that I had been involved with they decided that I was the best thing since sliced bread, and then I left.

My best advice would be to keep a contemperanious diary of everything. Ask for a witness to be present every time they speak to you. Keep as many records, including photos and tape recordings, as you can. (I can and will lend you a "dicatfone" if you need one). Once its all over go for em, (obviously presuming you are in fact innocent of whatever it is).

The job and your place in the company is very likely to be fecked up anyway regardless of the outcome.

For normal mortals walking up the Llanberis path with bike and riding when you can is a 2 – 2 1/2 hour enterprise. there wil be some either side of that who are uber fit or uber fat, but reckon on that and you won't be far out. I last did it in November, on a pretty foul day, and even there there were too many walkers to make it an entirely pleasant descent. So I personally I would be inclined to keep well outside the times simply to make the experience better for yourself.

As far as down is concerned, it took me 20minutes including a stop at halfway house, one largish off, and a very emabressing gear cable hooked up on gorse bush moment at the top of a steep bit. (Rapid deceleration ending with me still clipped in hanging over the front wondering what had happened)

Japan used to go out of its way to sor out its employees but at huge costs.

By sort out I presume you mean sort the wheat from the chaff?

For example Nissan at Sunderland the much vaunted example of manufacturing excellence proving that the British worker is the equal of any in the world….. they carried out one of the largest scale recruitment exercises ever in the UK. i.e. taking maximum care to ensure that they had recruited the "right" people. Further to that have you ever been to an Asian country? You will in general note if you have that fatties are quite rare, well until McDonalds got there that is.

So if you mean that they take care not to recruit "unsuitable" people, then the answer is yes, alternativly if you mean that they love their fatties and tend them at every possible opportunity I think you will find you are wrong for the reasons given.

BB you can come up North

No need got the same issues down here. However, in much the same way as the travellers, pretending that all is lovely and everything wonderful in the garden won't resolve that either. As I said before my opening gambit and the one I stand by is that the law of the mlnd should apply equally to all. That is not merely punative measures, but does expand out across the spectrum to their rights too, but then also to mine and of those like me.

Currently it clear that that is not the case and that is wrong.

And my point is lets not let political correctness get in the way of the facts. My experience is that I have never had a good traveller experience, it look a lot like I'm not alone in that. Maybe there are good reasons for that, but my views in that are equally as valid in theirs should they see me as a "nazi ****". In fact by token of the fact that I am not advocating extermination, racial purity or any of those things I suspect my views may well have greater validity than their supposed one.

The fact is the situation is as it is, and it is no good pretending otherwise. What we do need is a proper debate, and genuine efforts to deal with it. I come at it from the simple position that the law of the land should apply uniformly to all people regardless of who or what they are. If you are not prepared to do that then either accept the consequences or leave. (I have no problem with changing law either should it be necessary.)

Currently the “travelling community “ operate outside of the legal framework of the country, that is not entirely their fault, I agree. However, it is not reasonable to just pretend that its not a problem, because it is. Failure to address the reality will lead to vigilante actions ultimately, and that is entirely wrong.

No-one wants them as neighbours,

Like I said before let me have your address and I'll gladly pass it on to them as a welcoming place.

Look Talky, its like this. I've never done anything to a traveller, and have no intrention of starting now. However the other way round, my community has incurred two large bills for the aftermath of travellers. I've twice had my workplace broken into by travellers and vehicles decimated for spares (transit vans with bonnets gone, doors removed, headlights taken and so on). My local forest is innundated with "new age travellers" and there are as a result no go areas and crap everywhere. The situation at Thetford is as described and ongoing. My brother in laws landscaping business routinely has equipment stolen by "gypsies" often as described in the Tesco scenario above, in broad daylight. The Police rarely take any action to protect either his, my or anyone elses rights in this.

Now if you can find something somewhere that means that I'm culpable in this situation please do let me know. In the meantime I will continue to take people as I find them and make my judgements based on the reality that I have to deal with. Right now they boil my piss for the reasons given.

Try Maldon Road Garage, small independant. Pretty genuine and decent folk, or Express Service which is part of the Roy Tolley empire out on the Gosbecks road.

The express service concept is a fixed price service, using cheapest parts available. Wouldn't recommend it if your car is still in warranty, but outside of warranty it does have a major impact on costs. Always found them both to be reasonable.

Under the current regs all new circuits have to be signed off and reported to building control at your local authority. The test of whether a circuit needs to be notified or not is if you are using the new unified colour wiring. i.e. blue for neutral and brown for live, as opposed to black and red, then you do.
You will not get struck by lightening if you do it yourself, that is until you try to sell the property. Part of the checks that will be done when you do are in respect of wiring. If at that time it is found that you have breached the regs, you will a) not be able to sell the property until, b) you have rectified the wiring and got it registered.

To get the circuit checked you need a qualified NICEIC inspector or equivalent to sign it off. Not all sparks can do this, and if you can find someone who is and who will inspect and sign off for you you can do it yourself.

Clear? ……. Thought not….Nightmare isn't it?

Hurrah Life in the old dog yet ! So that’s talky wrong yet again then!!

Can I just point out that people who do not look after themselves for whatever reason are not in any way a focal point for my personal wrath or anything like that. In fact quite the reverse, I do think that generally they need support and help to overcome their issues, and the opportunities for early intervention are ridiculously overlooked within our health and social provisions.. However, what I am saying is that it is not the responsibility of employers. It is ridiculous to try to pretend that obesity is not a health problem, wrapped up in some sort of pseudo political correctness bullsh!t. This is a case of the emperors new clothes. We all know that obesity and eating disorders are a health time bomb not only for individuals, but for the country as a whole. There is no reason whatsoever why an employer should not take that into account in a recruitment, it is simply seeking to reduce the likelihood of preventable costs and disruption to their business and entirely within the law as long as the criteria is applied evenly.

BB the council has a duty to provide sites for gypsies/travellers it is not their fault your council does not do this?

Thanks for the patronising lesson, but what makes you think there aren't any where I live? There are in fact 3 within 10 miles. You can easily spot them, they are the places with burnt out cars all around in the surrounding lanes, and which are no go areas for the Police.

do no tdamage national praks . countryside and never leave any sign that they ahve been there when they eave like say inner tubes in trees

May I suggest that you try to refrain from doing that which you accuse me of, you know sweeping generalisations? Personally I am extremly careful not to cause any damage or impact where I ride and I certainly never leave anything behind knowingly. On the other hand were I to do so, it might also be said that I do contribute to the costs incurred in sorting it out. So thats that one cleared up. Next fatuous argument please

Personally I'm really interested to hear more of your time with "gypsies". Sounds more like you've been away with the fairies frankly! My experience is that as an outsider you'll be lucky to get away without serious harm if you "trespass" on their patch…. (oh the irony!) Or are you actually talking about "new age interlopers"?

What specialist treatment are they asking for ? I don’t believe the majority can tell the minority what is and what is not an acceptable way to live their life.

Nonsense. When did it become acceptable for me to enter someone elses property without their permission, live there as long as I choose, dump my crap all over the place and then leave expecting the landowner to carry the cost and responsibility for my behaviour?

Incidentally, could you and talky email me your home addresses? I think my chums at Thetford would like to know of a place where they are so welcome when they move on. And no I'm not joking, I really mean it I will gladly pass your details on to them, and I promise that I will do so should you provide them to me.

Did I specify that they are in permanent or even long term residency? Don't think I did…

Just asking, because there are two sorts that I know of, those that stay for along time, and those that know exactly how long the legal process to move them on takes, and leave the night before service of the eviction notice.

I personally would be very impressed if you managed to have any sort of dialogue with this latter group. Not least because you would do extremely well to understand what they said if, and it’s a very big if they would even talk to you.

Interestingly, I have very mixed views on the Dale Farm situation. I don't agree with their decision to totally ignore planning law, but for the reasons mentioned by Big dummy (It strikes me as a desperately grim life), I can see their point.

Is that an oxymoron by any chance?

No. Why would it be?

If you live in an area that is inhabited by travellers then by that token they clearly aren't travelling are they?

You don't live here by any chance do you? An area inhabitated by travellers

I live in an area that is also inhabited by quite a number of travelling people

Is that an oxymoron by any chance?

Xenophobic??

Not sure where you get that from…. all I want is for them to be treated equally with the rest of us….. you know? pay taxes, receive services, live under the same legal framework. Not sure how thats xenophobic, I'm more than happy to share both my burdens and the rewards for them with anyone.

PS: Regarding environmental impact, thats not frankly my point. My point is hwy is my environmental impact policed and any failure to comply punished when theirs isn't?

Traffic pollution caused very much by people who don't live in the borough.

What no one in your borough drive or receive any services etc from people who do then?

it doesn't fall under the old bill to deal with environmental crime.

So like I said whats he going to do about it. I've got the problem, what I'm looking for is an answer!

Seems the diddy-coys have sussed it, as illegal waste disposal seems to be their new game of choice. Do you reckon the bottoms fallen out of the driveway business?

You're damn right! Thats me, a bigot with a vote so now whats he going to do about it??

Don't get me started!

I **** hate them with a passion.

There are a group on the common land just outside Thetford at the moment. They are gradually accumulating a pile of old fridges. Any bets on them be taken away and properly cleared up when they leave…… yes by the local authority do I hear you cry?

Now what boils my piss is that you need a licence to carry waste. They won't have one and therefore an offence is being committed very publically and openly. Do the old bill do anything about it? No of course not.

Compare that to me, I'm a tax payer and local resident. If I take my refuse to the local tip I get quizzed on whether its commercial, I have to sort it, cow-two to the refuse nazi's and have random rules applied, like for example you can only tip two bags of rubble in one visit and any more than that is deemed to be demolition waste whatever that means!

So someone plaase justify to me why these twunts can just do as they please whilst costing everyone else a fortune and contributing nothing??

My village ended up with a £40,000 clear up bill the last time we had the pleasure of their company for a week. So c'mon Gordon what you going to do about it eh????

Brown is a control freak and he meant what he said

No opinion one way or another as I've not seen it, but two things spring immediately to my mind.

1) Shame that this will now detract from proper discussion of the real and significantly improtant issues
2) I love the way you are able to make up your own alternate reality flippinheckler. Absolutely no evidence to back that statement up, but who cares eh?

just the egos of the STW massive taking on "soft" targets, one of which is continuously chrisitianity.
………..particularly on STW and the popular press) it's really in vogue to rip the piss out of any christian beleif.

Sorry you are very wide of the mark there shag

The simple fact is that the Catholic Church in particular have set them selves up as paragons of virtue. They also happen to be corrupt, and complicit in instituionalised child abuse. Its not a case of ripping the piss at all. Its a case of giving vent to genuinely held anger and disgust. For what its worth personally I feel pretty much the same way about all religions, but to the best of my knowledge there aren't many that are as patently low-life as the papists IMHO.