I always thought this was about Regime change……

General Election anyone ???? 😀

…..oh and arming the other side via saudi while we are at it.

I reckon if we were really6 serious about sorting out issues in the Middle East sticking the nut on Saudi, might be one of the most sensible things to do.

Personally, I think this situation is a strong argument for a unified European Armed Force, both in terms of the collective decision making and in terms of spreading the liability and responsibility more broadly. Ideally I would prefer a UN military force with a clear mandate and no national strictures. Pigs might fly and all that, but when did we/the US get elected as the worlds Police Force? Frankly this sticking our noses into other peoples business is getting a bit tedious.
In addition to all of that we’ve just cut the bejesus out of the armed forces. How the hell can they be expected to take on yet another ridiculous and unenforcable policing action with both hands tied to one foot yet again??? I do wonder what our reaction would have been had Libiya or someone interfered in Northern Ireland…….. oh yeah 😳

Oh thats all right then…. 😉

….. and actually my point was that “we/they” are learning on the hoof, not whether things are civilian or not. I’m quietly confident that the sovs weren’t deleiberately contaminating themselves. ITs just that they didn’t know any better when they started, then the politics of it became such that to stop doing it would be an admission of guilt so they just kept on.

Now then back on back on message: Run it past me how much knowledge do we actually have about the long term effects of the storage of nuclear waste say over the danger period of what is being stored for example??

So just to be clear, because of an incident nearly 60 years ago which has less than 10000 attributed deaths in spite of being one of the worst incidents of its kind we should be more worried than we are about the technology that has millions of attributed deaths per year?

It doesn’t have to be a choice of which pile of shit you have to step in. There are other options.

Er…not exactly. Chelyabinsk (or more properly the Kyshtym Disaster) was a level 6 emergency,

Ever been there John? When we used to go there the company supplied us with personal monitoring kit. We had od’ed before the plane had even started its descent. You are talking about an area which has had at least 3 major nuclear disasters, and probably more. Until the early 90’s it was a closed KGB military area no one in – no one out stylee, so the truth is nobody really knows more than that. The most obvious problem is the fact that they’ve been dumping the by product of manufacturing weapons grade material into the lakes and rivers for the best part of 50 years to the extent that no one even knows whats gone in there. The people who “monitor it” have a very short life span because just approaching the area is a lethal dose. They did dam it up, but they couldn’t maintain the dam because it was so bad, and when I was last there it was a given that it was only a matter of time before the dam collapsed and the lakes discharged into the white sea. That has happened now I believe, and on top of that you now have a dust bowl where the lake was and the wind is blowing the contaminated material who knows where.

All of this was military, top secret, unreported, broadly not know about even within the region let alone outside, and still goes without much attention. Trust me, it makes all the other problems added together, multiplied several times, and then exaggerated look like an episode of Fireman Sam.

Life is too short for negativity. Jog on past her infantile behaviour.

Who knows….. they reckon that something like 2/3rd of a million people have been irradiated at levels somewhere between Chernobyl and Hiroshima. There is toxic radioactive waste in the lakes and rivers of which much has now either drained into the White Sea (Greenland) or is airborne as dust.

Despite the fact we both know this, you’ve got kids and we’re expecting our first… so even people most acutely aware of this are still doing nothing about it

Agreed, I fear the choice is either we take it on and address it or nature will. Strangely nature does have equilibrium and always finds it eventually. Take this year for example. Have you noticed a distinct lack of wasps? Bad summer last year apparently did for them. Apparently their prime food sources are glutting this year and new colonies are springing up everywhere. We had to take out two at last weeks Nationals at Hadleigh for example.

I suspect natures way will be more brutal than us doing it ourselves.

Chelyabinsk….. Chernobyl is for pussies by comaparison 😥

Nuclear has some serious work to do to even approach the levels of death and destruction caused by fossil fuels

Give it a 100 years, it will be in pole position by then!

Think about it. Aeroplanes have been about for over 100 years now, and batteries some 220, yet Boeing can’t combine the two without them spontaeously combusting. Like I say they all do on the job learning. Problem is a nuclear accident does tend to have much further reaching consequences.

Yes, and we still appear to be doing nothing about it

What apart from finding an even worse alternative??? 😯

Sorry mate (zokes), I can’t agree, the industry is doing what every other industry does, and that is learning from its mistakes. Truth is no one really knows what impact releasing things like strontium 90 into seawater in the volumes that are happening currently will actually have over the next 10, 20, 50 or 100 years. (Incidentally, to be fair the problems around Chelyabinsk make this seem a bit like a chipped cup at tea party by comparison, but nver the less its not great is it?)

The reality is that despite constant reassurances to the contrary they are still making, and still learning from their mistakes. Ultimately whats happening at Fukushima is a civilian version of the Bikini Atoll tests , where the wisdom was it would be alright for troops to be unprotected and watch at a distance. Correct interpretation = We don’t know, but guess that it’ll be fine given what we know at the moment. Current knowledge = Doing that’ll devastate your life!! Big mistake if you happen to have been watching

Problem is that the cocks up tend to be on a global scale and with much further reaching consequences. There is strong evidence of DNA damage which is appearing generations along, a vastly increased incidence of cancers and so forth since the arrival of the nuclear age. It took us several hundred years to cock up to that extent with fossil.

The reality is that there is a cost associated with all energy consumption, but plotically we don’t like to have that debate in the open, and no one wants to tell voters things which aren’t sexy, like your kids might die a horrible death so you can have cheap energy. Thats the real deal, and in truth we all know that, just pretend not to.

Solution: Sensible population control and a shift in emphasis from an economic system based on consumption to perhaps one based on generational sustainability.

Have to disagree with you Zokes.

Truth is nuclear is about where fossil was before they figured out about the scale of the associated problems.

**** outrage

I suspect that many of those who are having a go may well have misunderstood what they were going to see. I went expecting to see what I saw. Really wasn’t expecting Shakepeare or Dostoyevsky, and I wasn’t disappointed in that.

Personally I thought it was pretty much faithful to the books, which are basically holiday reads, you know the sort? Ones you aren’t bothered about leaving behind when read once. Films the same.

This may have done before, so feel free to flame if so.

But Godfrey Bloom is Richard Wilson and I claim my £5

Does make you wonder why they try so hard to avoid a written constitution and virtually have apoplexy at the mention of the phrase human rights.

Thinking about it, this reminds me of something my old chap used to say. Ex London copper and all that. Basically he always used to say you don’t get punsihed for breaking the law, you get punsihed for getting caught!

Guys bang to rights. Grass him up

Not a bad bloke who is taking the piss out his mates after cheating? That does not compute frankly.

The hole he has dug is his responsibility not yours, (if you are correct in your assessment).

If you really want to do him a favour have a quiet word in his shell like and then hand him a spade.

Yet travellers do manage to get insurance for their vans

I’m sure some do, as I said at the outset I was using this as an example, you could equally apply the same principle to the homeless. i.e. the legal system doesn’t work very well because they don’t have an address. I also made it very clear, not once, but twice that this was not about knocking travellers.

TBH you cannot attack an entire way of life and a people then ask us not to talk about the people you attack nor accuse you of attacking them

Where precisely did I do that? What I said was that the itinerant community, operate outside the law. They do. What do you think pitching up on someone elses land without permission is? That is their way of life. I’m not being judgemental about it, its a fact. There is also a contrary argument that they are forced to it by the shameful nimbyism that has resulted in the law being routinely broken by local authorities by failing to provide the requisite amount of pitches, but regardless, the outcome is outside the law. So before we go too much further could I just add that I live down the road from the site, and have close contact with someone who is involved, I do therefore have a slightly better than average understanding of it, and I have made no comment other than to say that its unlikely to go to court, which is true, everyone involved would acknowledge that. At this point in time the guy has not been charged with anything, and isn’t likely to be as I understand it…… I mean does traffic law even apply off road, other than SORN?? Can you be charged with causing death by dangerous driving away from the highway? If so where does that leave racing drivers and the owners of circuits??

So when we are talking about assumptions and predjudices, may I suggest you take look in the mirror?

Its entirely typical of the PC brigade on here that you all do precisely what you are accusing me of. I have not at any time suggested that there will be a deliberate attempt to evade the law. In fact it had not entered my mind until konabunny started pompously accusing me of all sorts. Actually, I was coming at it from precisely the opposite direction, and if you knew anything at all about the tragedy, as opposed to imposing your own interpretation on it that would have been obvious.

What I am actually saying is that due to the way we operate our legal system travellers are forced into operating at best on the outskirts of legality and at worst totally without any protection from the law whatsoever, and that is a self evident truth, whether you like it or not. So the question is why do we persist with unworkable laws, and even propose new ones (spitting), which are self evidently not workable, as I made clear at the outset, this is not an anti traveller thread, I was just using a current news item to illustrate a situation where there are self evident failures. So stop being up yourselves and open your mind to thoughts that don’t include being holier than thou all the time, you never know you might like it.

If anything what I am guilty of is assuming the best in people and not remembering that the opportuinity to tkae a poke at folk is rarely passed up on here.

It’s not “reality”, though.

Actually it is, as we will find as the case unravels, but thats not the point. The point is that our legal system is peppered with really fundamental weaknesses. The example I propose is just one.

Think: Bailed until October. Under pressure even before the incident occurred to move on in July. The two things do not and will not match up. The fact is the fella in question doesn’t know where he’ll be next week, let alone October, so the old bill, who frankly struggle to find their own backside with the lights on and using both hands, have no chance. So what chance of a conclusion? Remember the child that died is someones on that same site, so there are two sides to the story. Its not about victimising Travellers, they also don’t receive much justice by the same token.

Bail granted, so lets knock that diversion on the head

Your thread, sir, is just cheap gypsy-baiting.

Oh contraire! Your post sir, is merely cheap PC madness ignoring reality.

There is absolutely no way you can get insurance cover etc without an address. If you don’t believe me I suggest you try it, its easy enough call any company and try to arrange insurance. I guarantee you will not get past the address question. ditto applying for a licence, tax or anything else.

Anyway, if indeed this individual did have a contact address, and if indeed the bail act were likely to be a problem he would have given it wouldn’t he? Not declared himself to be of no fixed abode.

In respect of why don’t the police take their vehicle off them? The answer is a self evident combination of:- a) they have to catch them, which is easier said than done, b) they often do when they do, c) it means that the only way the Police have of releiving their problem is for them to move on from their patch. No transport and they are stuck with them.

Now then the point of the thread is that our legal system really cannot cope with these sort of things. Try substituting traveller for homeless person if you can’t handle it. Its the same issue.

In the end he says he has to pay third parties for 2 jobs. Connections to gas mains and plastering. I think he got Ok at plastering but he says as he is slower its still more cost effective to bring some one in

Oh yeah did I mention that potential son in law is not a grunt, hes actually a very briight fella, and the plan is also to go into property development. His analysis of important skills was similar to this quote from ampthill, which is why he has gone off to learn one of them.

My daughters fella is an artisan plasterer. Spent 2 years at college plus on site experience. Can do the whole 9 yards from making mouldings, listed building type repairs and rennovations and so on and so forth.

Personally, having seen the work and effort involved and the amount of skill it takes to do it properly I would just get a pro in. Best bet is to find someone, (normally by word of mouth), and then discuss what you want done and how to fit it in to suit the fella on £ notes basis.

The girls lad is stacked like the proverbial brick outhouse, and frankly I have no idea how he actually manages the amount of work he does for what he earns from it.

It could be argued that the correct response is to deal with em, and through that mechanism apply pressure to bring about change, and that doing anything else is merely a cop out, ……No?

Seems fairly well balanced and reflective of what I’ve seen of the actual report, and nothing at all like the debacle being portrayed in this thread

Are you all looking forward to being old, ill and in the care of the NHS?

I’m 57, I’ve worked hard all my life, and saved hard too for my retirement. I can’t pretend I’m hard up, but the reality is I’ve had my first tranche of savings screwed by the debacle that was endowments. The savings vehicle of choice when I was a youngster. I ended up saving my arse off and getting back somewhat less than I’d put in. I’ve had a personal pension in place since I was 23. With the benefit of things like opting out of SERPS and what have you it transpires I would have been better to not have done that and saved nowt.

Frankly, I’m sick to the back teeth of the state of the place, my local high street looks like Beirut, my local hospital is a shambles. the local Police are at best ineffectual, the roads are crumbling.

I look at the bunch of muppets in charge, (of all persuasions), and frankly I’m on it and in full sympathy with the French peasants about the time of the “let them eat cake” moment.

I like most people of my age have contributed fulsomely, only to see it pissed away by a bunch of chinless gits at the top. something fundamental needs to change IMHO.

Well said b r. Probably the most sensible thing I’ve read on the subject….. ever.

Personally, I reckon most things in this country would benefit hugely from not having to do a U turn every few years. Not by any means perfect, but a good indication of long term planning and stabilty from up top can be seen in China, where the economic revolution wrought since Nixons vist in 1972 is nothing short of miraculous.

So, lets get this straight – the report says that this has been going on for a good ten years, it says that over 1500 reports were made to Andy Burnham and the Labour government of unacceptable standards leading to deaths, and they did nothing –

Yet somehow its the Tories to blame! Outstanding!

Out of interest the report does specifically point out that lack of investment in the 80’s and 90’s is a prime issue, and it does also suggest that new lab did go a long way to rectifying that, but hey why let that get in the way of your bias.

SIMPLE FACT: We elect the Government, and the what is being discussed here is about the distribution of finite resources as decided by us the electorate.

Personally I’ve had a good deal of experience (on the receiving end) of the NHS, and I have no real complaints that aren’t attributable to allocation of dosh, or more accurately lack of. I have no problem whatsoever in paying higher taxes to pay for the service to be maintained, and hopefully improved. I always take that into account when I vote, and for that reason
I make no secret of the fact that I’d rather have my scrotum removed by an HIV infected witch doctor with one half of a blunt pair of rusty scissors and without anesthetic, than vote for this current vile bunch of self interested butt wipes.

(Incidentally, I’ve never voted for New Lab either).

What I would like to know is where are all the Tory apologists now? I seem to remember the place being full of them before the last election.

Is there a tory in the house? Please step forward and defend the behavior of your Health Secretary immediately. Especially his behavior in the house today which was not only poor, but demonstrably inaccurate

It always amazes me when people can’t equate this:-

Annoying though, that justgiving take more commission

With this:-

CharityGiving.co.uk is suspended over funding concerns

Any business is fundamentally simple in that you take something, do something to it then sell it for more than it originally cost. All that is necessary is to ensure that the work they do costs less than the difference between cost and sell. Clearly in this instance this is not the case, so in fact the basic problem is in all probability precisely the fact that they were charging less than Justgiving. As the saying goes, all that glitters is not gold.

You can easily see how giving an example of charging someone for an item (catalogue)

If you look I very specifically said putting a price on it, NOT charging for it, and furthermore referred to it as a tactic.

But I’d seriously suggest, for you berm-bandit, a better outcome is likely to be reached by directing your (valid) concerns with your service, and writing a letter to your practice.

…..and as I’ve already said, I have already done so to pretty much the same response as you have been giving, which seems to be “what do you know, we’ve already tried everything, nothing works and therefore my patients are all wasters, and clearly my time is so much more important than yours”. As anyone operating in a “real world” environment, (and before you lecture me in who much more real your world is than mine, I mean a world where commercial pressures are real as opposed to the pretend internal market within the NHS), will tell you your survival as a business would be extremely unlikely in anything other than a monopoly. Whilst I don’t agree with their philosophy, this is precisely why tories wattle on about public utilities, and why they constantly attack them.

I agree.
But this is an open thread, and not just a conversation between you and I, so I’ve taken into account ideas and options from media and other posters, and also contributed my own ‘thinking out loud’.

Er no…. what you actually said was this

I also agree with your statement alluding to ‘ownership of a service you’ve paid for’ (which is one reason why people paying for chiopractor/osteopath services have “great outcomes” – the financial investment made skews their perception of the actual outcome). However, as raised, the idea of charging at the point of service for GP is a very muddy one. I’d like to see a better system, but I’m not sure it involves charging for appointments….

Again misquoting what I said, and I’m pretty sure I can be forgiven for thinking thats directly responding to my earlier post, which was nothing to do with charging anyone, what I was suggesting was that by raising the spectre of an invoice you are giving the appointment the perception of a real monetary value. Just by doing that it transforms attitudes. I even gave two examples, (Catalogue and County Court) where the perception of a cost modifies behaviours.

I’d like to see a better system, but I’m not sure it involves charging for appointments….

Do you mind if we move on from fixating on misquoting what I said? Its not adding anything to the discussion and just confirms the head in the sand type attitude to this real problem within the NHS.

So once more what I actually said was

The self evident answer is that to repeat something that isn’t working expecting a different outcome is indicative of madness. So the answer very simply is try something else, and keep trying something else until you find something that works.

Furthermore,

I merely pointed out that my dentist uses an invoice for a missed appointment to good effect as an example of thing that can be done. Apparently in Singletrackworld a dentist doing so is not a problem, but a doctor doing the same is apparently an insurmountable issue.

So in summary I have never suggested charging for an appointment, I have offered as an example my dentists practice of invoicing patients for a missed appointment, which is an entirely different thing, and is merely an example, not a definitive suggestion for a solution, which was already made. i.e. you will not find a solution by burying your head in the sand or throwing your hands up in despair. Frankly that is a lazy and ignorant attitude and demonstrates the arrogance of many GP’s and which quite honestly is disgraceful.

The serious implication is covered very well here in this quote from acracer:-

I’m one of these men who tends to put off going longer than I should, and have been told that I should have come in earlier…….. Also, exactly how urgent is depression which is sufficiently bad to drag somebody reluctant to see a medical professional in?

Personally, I suspect the truth is that its a covnenient method of guaranteeing that targets for appointments and waiting times are met. i.e. 99% of our patients get a same day appointment. Overlooking to mention that large percentage, are frustrated, give up trying or go to A & E or dial the debacle on 111.

STW belongs to who it belongs to and its their call ultimately, and I think that should be respected. However, as a general comment, I am fascinated by how moderators on fori operate. Seems to me that very often there is little or no logic to the moderation other than to make the chatroom as bland, featureless and lacking in colour as possible. Always seems to me that we are driven towards a THX1138 style existence where discussion and debate are confused with dissent.

I don’t have any answers either.

You probably didn’t read it, but what I actually said was:-

The self evident answer is that to repeat something that isn’t working expecting a different outcome is indicative of madness. So the answer very simply is try something else, and keep trying something else until you find something that works.

I merely pointed out that my dentist uses an invoice for a missed appointment to good effect as an example of thing that can be done. Apparently in Singletrackworld a dentist doing so is not a problem, but a doctor doing the same is apparently an insurmountable issue.

That’s a proper can of worms when it comes to medical care. Who administers that? Who collects the money? Where does the money go? What happens if you don’t pay? Are you then barred from further treatment? Then what?, etc, etc.

Any more ideas?

Pretty straight forward actually. The intention is not to be in a position whereby banning/charging people etc is necessary. In fact it is quite possible for GP’s to ban people, and they do use that power. The idea is the precise reverse, which is to generate a situation whereby the desired outcome is achieved. i.e. show up or cancel in a timely fashion. IT IS NOT TO ACTUALLY INVOICE PEOPLE. There is a well trodden path that is summarised by the saying easy come easy go. Which basically means people don’t value that which does not cost them much to obtain. So the reverse of that coin is give it a value and people then treat it better. For example putting a price on catalogues is a well know tactic to stop them going in the bin.

So advertise the fact that missed appointments will be charged, and indeed send out invoices. It won’t take long to get around, and I guarantee that the outcomes will improve.

I do similar with debt collecting in my business. Sending out a County Court application made out in their name and address normally extracts an outcome within 20 minutes or so of it being emailed/faxed. I rarely ever actually get past filling out the from. Same principle.

I think he said 24 day wait which seems unlikely.

That is precisely what I said, and precisely what was offered. Bascially everytime you call its a battle with the receptionist as described. Ridiculous

Patient expectation – everyone can google their symptoms and come up with something terrible,

Actually very often its because of public health advice given, or statutory requirements such as sick notes, but hey lets not quibble.

I’m sure what they really mean is “do you need to be see urgently”.

Which pretty much means the same thing doesn’t it? However, if that supposition is correct, why the hell is there a system in place that forces everyone to behave as if their need was in fact urgent. i.e. you must phone on the day AND take an appointment on that same day whether you need it or not??

Regarding missed appointments: My dentist sends an invoice for the time wasted for a missed appointment. Amazing how memory improves when that happens.

Out of interest what I was trying to make an appointment about was shortness of breath over a period of time i.e. as in weeks. I was not asking for an immediate appointment, quite the reverse in fact.

Given that one of the more serious of problems especially amongst men is a reticence to go to the GP even when obviosuly necessary, run it past me again as to why making it such a massive problem to so is a good idea?

A shrug of the shoulders and a statement like this:- Appointments systems are flawed and I’m not sure what the answer is TBH, is the entire reason for my original ranty post. Especially in respect of such an obviously and fundamentally failing system. In my line of work thats enough to close you down.

The self evident answer is that to repeat something that isn’t working expecting a different outcome is indicative of madness. So the answer very simply is try something else, and keep trying something else until you find something that works.

Y’know, this self-determination thing ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. Let me slink back for another lick at the colonial jackboot.”

I suspect you might find the population of quite a few countries would take that option, albeit their governments may well not. Zimbabwe perhaps?

so as stated several times, change doctors.

Have you ever tried to do that in a rural setting??

The next nearest practice is the same outfit, as is the one after that. So basically if I could I would, unfortunately the concept of choice is not one that the NHS is that familar with generally.

what is it you want DrP to fix?

I would have thought that was blindingly obvious, but as apparently its not, if his system is not working, rather than come on here moaning about his patients how about having a little think about why its happening and what active steps could be taken to prevent it. I suspect my experience is not that different from most, certainly that is the case anecdotaly if not measured scientifically