You can type out millions of words in response, but it still doesn’t change things

That I believe is your domain, my posts tend to simply quote yours back at you, with short comments, thus the appearance of a million words.

Would it be fair to say that this the equivalent of “its my ball and I’m going home”

I dare say BermBandit is probbly feeling quite chuffed

Yet another of those things you keep accusing others of Elf… an assumption. Actually, I was slightly concerned that I might have gone in too hard on you, and until I saw this was contemplating posting to that effect.

My perspective is this. MTB generally has always been a source of inspiration to me personally, in that it was very much like surfing was originally, i.e. friendly, non competitive, with the joy of what you were doing and the company of other like minded individuals being the driving force. Unfortunately, that original chilled and laid back attitude seems to have been increasingly driven from the sport and it has gradually evovled into yet another cycling discipline with all the pluses, and but also the negatives that come with that. The STW forum for my money has simply mirrored that trend. 5 or 6 years ago, being on here was much like being on a ride with mates. You got all the various degrees of support, the banter and the pish ripping that you would while out. Pretty much 100% good natured and you kind of knew that if someone offended you even accieentally that would pretty much be mortified.

I think the writing was on the wall from the days of the MLEH breakaway, not because they went, but because the angst and taking yourself too seriously personiffied in that dummy spit was indicative of what was going on generally. I have always felt that the split of bike and chat just continued down that road. Let alone the moderation issues. Possibly not becuase threads get closed, but more because there is the need to do so.

1. Oi, Bermbandit, did you read this bit?
Some of what you say is reasonable.
Hmm?

Yep and I wasn’t terribly interested by it. Pretty patronsing in the general context of how you perform IMHO. I don’t need your affirmation.

I’ve been travelling in the Indian subcontinent consistently for 25 years or so
And I’ve been part of an Asian family my entire life. So who wins here?

I wasn’t aware of the contest, but in the context of your previous and dare I say somewhat patronising assumption I feel it would be reasonable to claim that point, were I of that nature.

What I took umbrage with was this comment:
Fellas can shag anything that moves, get falling down drunk, beat their women, generally treat them like dirt, girls must look girly, remain celibate, do as they are told and not drink.
Whilst I don’t deny that this happens, such behaviour is not generally condoned or acceptable within the communities/cultures of which you speak. Nor is it the ‘norm’. What pisses me off is the negative portrayal of such cultures by yourself and others, and the lack of appreciation of the positive aspects. Such behaviour is not limited to ‘Indian Subcontinent’ cultures, but can be found in cultures all over the World, including ‘British’ White Middle Class communities. But you don’t seem to make much mention of that.

I have no doubt the behaviour is replicated elsewhere, but I don’t actually have much if any knowledge of that, so only referred to that of which I am aware. No doubt had I broadened the point, you or someone like you who seem to specialize in nitpicking would have picked me up on it. I could not then have defended the point or been able to claim the “win” apparently.

In ‘discussions’ such as this, it’s common to see people point out negative aspects of a culture, without much recognition of the fact that these aren’t exclusive to the cultures under scrutiny.
As above
Oh and by the way, my research on the subject of travelling people formed part of a thesis.
What a coincidence! I also presented academic work about transient cultures/communities, as well as marginalised communities/cultures, as part of my studies. I’ve also spent time with people from ‘travelling’ communities.

In which case it does rather pour piss on you earlier wikipedia comment, also patronizing and designed to intimidate IMHO

Point 2: My wifes comment on the affordability or otherwise would I suspect be based on the fact that I’m a company director, we own our home outright, she is a highly paid manager, and that we are fairly affluent by southern UK standards, but would nonetheless baulk at the amount being expended on dresses and limousines for a wedding.
So, little more than assumption, then. And perhaps a lack of ability to understand that other cultures have differing values. So, you’re wealthy etc etc blah blah blah, and wouldn’t spend so much on a wedding, but what the tomato does that have to do with the choices others have a right to make? Maybe other people might think you’re mad to do the jobs you do, spend so much on your house, lifestyle, etc.

There you go, making assumptions and jumping to conclusions again. We all have value systems, which we base our judgments and decisions on. At no point did I suggest anything other than surprise at how people could afford such lavish celebrations. I even went on to expand that to other groups, but that was not relevant to this thread initially, its about the Gypsy wedding documentary!!

I know folk with pots of money who think me crazy for spending so much money on bikes, yet think nothing of spending loads on a bottle of wine, or a meal, or a Phillipe Starck juicer. Funny old World, in’t it?

Yep, strangley my Mrs being one of them, but like I said its not really relevant here on this thread is it?

Quite impressed by your response, but still think your comments are those of someone who assumes their own values are superior/somehow more ‘correct’ than others.

Patronsing again ? When on earth did I say anything other than my opinon? I think I have said several times that I don’t claim to have the answers, total moral authority or anything of the sort. Actually, I was just commenting on a TV programme that I watched along with several other people on this forum. My views, not necessarily correct for others, simply mine. Personally I think this forum is greatly reduced by the constant nitpicking, holier than thou contributions of people such as yourself. Simply amusing yourself by taking some sort of self proclaimed morale stance to belittle others is in my view similar to pulling the legs off spiders. It says more about the person doing it than it does their victims!

Easy to criticise others, but how about looking at yourself, and have a think about how imperfect you might be, in the eyes of others.

And how about you do the same? I’m comfortable in my skin, (yeah yeah I know….its a turn of phrase with no racist overtones before you start!). May I suggest a similar period of introspection might be as helpful if not more so for you?

Comments like all the gypsies I know have huge rolls of cash

I don’t think thats what was said, and it definately wasn’t what I said. What you are doing is twisting the words to suit your predjudice.

Its entirely anecdotal, but my experience of travellers is also like that i.e. wads of cash. That is not hatemongering, its simply what my experience is. Thankfully, I’m intelligent enough not to presume that my limited experience is representative of all, albeit its a 100% strike rate to date.

Well it seems that Big Fat Gypsy weddings had exactly the desired effect.

They are all theives you know. It’s a disgrace.

Oh get off your high horse. In similar circumstances, if watched by a tax officer it would be sufficient to get me an estimated Tax demand, whereby I would have not only have to prove where the money came from, but that I had paid tax on it too. Are you seriously suggesting that these people are any different to you or me and should therefore be treated differently?

All of that apart, I certainly have not said that it was not genuine properly earnt and taxed income, merely expressed surprise that the wedding was affordable. That is no different to my view on the ridiculous amounts lavished by all sorts of people on their weddings. Its just that this thread isn’t about all sorts of people, merely the people featured in this show. Which I for one acknowledged is in all liklihood not representative.

Norfolk????? Flaming ~ NORFOLK????? the land of 6 toed sister love??
How very dare you…. Suffolkish if you don’t mind….. the shandy swilling, bedwetting soft southerner bits probably fair enough, but one has ones standards don’t you know…..

Bleeding Norfolk…… full of cheating, (more dives than a Chinese fishermans cormorant), Grant Holt types…….. CHRIST! 😕

LOL Probably fair, but I’m sure you’ll appreciate why it raises the temperature of ones pish a tad. <edit> Personally I do get a bit fed up of not being allowed an opinion, and the wielding of the PC’ness solution at every possible instance. Regardless of whethere its appropriate or not.

That view of my enemies enemy is my friend was not uncommon at the time. Many people made choices of the least worst variety which moved them toward one or other side. Quite a few of the Oxbridge intellectuals that ended up as spies for the USSR actually started out with a genuine belief that what they were doing was a moral thing for similar reasons.

TO Elfinsafety

Really? So you’ve lived in an ‘Indian Sub-continent’ household then have you? Been part of such a community? Right, ok.

Some of what you say is reasonable. There’s just too much assumption based on preconceptions of others, without actually knowing much about the reality. That’s all.

Point 1: I’ve been travelling in the Indian subcontinent consistently for 25 years or so, and yes I have spent time in peoples homes, attended numerous weddings, been surrounded by irate relatives for daring to speak to a female member of the household, seen first hand the outcome of so called honour assaults etc etc etc ad nauseum
Point 2: My wifes comment on the affordability or otherwise would I suspect be based on the fact that I’m a company director, we own our home outright, she is a highly paid manager, and that we are fairly affluent by southern UK standards, but would nonetheless baulk at the amount being expended on dresses and limousines for a wedding.

So could I respectfully suggest you sort your own preconceptions and assumptions out before you start on others. Oh and by the way, my research on the subject of travelling people formed part of a thesis. I did check, wikipedia is not in the bibliography.

Which kind of shows just how little you and your missus actually know about other cultures….

Bows deeply before the font of all knowledge…obviously I admit to the offence and plead ignorance as my poor but only defence…….

…….. actually thats total crepe. Firstly, there is strong evidence to support the passage of the Romany from the Indian sub-continent to Europe, via the Causcusus, although there are also suggestions that the term Gypsies arose from emigration from Eygpt going back to the time of the pharohs. However, thats was not the reason I said what I said. I stand by the comment, and I would love you to go ahead and prove me wrong.

I watched it with my Mrs. The immediate comment from her was how on earth can they afford that? Which I have to say was a fair point. Did you actually catch how much some of those dresses cost? That apart, it was interesting how many parallels there were with some Indian sub continent cultures. ie. Fellas can shag anything that moves, get falling down drunk, beat their women, generally treat them like dirt, girls must look girly, remain celibate, do as they are told and not drink.

I am obviously aware that it was a snapshot, and quite possibly not indicative of a culture generally. However, what I saw had little to recommend it, and frankly just demonstrated a way of life that has had its time and really ought to be consigned to history books along with workhouses, pressganging and little boys being sent up chimneys.

If you are insured it would be wise to take the route suggested by McHamish, because otherwise you may well breach the contract between you and your insurer. If you are not sure why, its on the basis that you mustn’t admit liability after an accident even if its obivous that you were at fault. That is becuase you have basically broken your agreement to give all of your rights to the insurer so they can negotiate a settlement without impairment. So in this instance, claim from your insurer, its then down to them whether they want to take it up with your local authority.

Interesting stuff. I remember a lecturer telling me about a rare plant in north scotland (might have been P.scotica, cant remember) that had a mysterious fungus spreading between populations, they twigged the botanists themselves were highly likely to be the vector transporting the spores!

It was ever thus, this is an exert from a treatise on the spread of dry rot…..basically a Himalayan fungus transported down rivers by rotting tree trunks into harbours and from there in the timbers of wooden ships to the rest of the world. First identified and recorded in the 1700’s in this country. Unfortunately this current disease is just the latest in a very long line, and not likley to be stopped anytime soon.

Genetic analyses pinpoint mainland Asia as the origin of the aggressive form var. lacrymans. A few aggressive genotypes have migrated worldwide from Asia to Europe, North and South America and Oceania followed by local population expansions. The very low genetic variation in the founder populations indicate that they have established through recent founder events, for example by infected wood materials transported over land or sea. A separate colonization has happened from mainland Asia to Japan. Our data also indicate that independent immigration events have happened to Oceania from different continents followed by admixture.

Cause and effect TJ. Views like yours are the cause and underground is the effect.

Immacualte conception……don’t know about that, but I’d give it a 7! 😯

If you read it the mircale actually happened after he’d died. I’m all for a good old bit of Hocus Pocus, but this is stretching it a bit….Dead pope performs miracle on Nun shocker do you reckon its precursor to finding out shes had a child by any chance? 😉

The procreation of our species is dependant on strong instinct. For that reason behaviours and attractions both ways round are significant and defining elements of who and what we are. Frankly TJ you are a having a bit of a King Canute moment trying to turn that particualr tide back. Driving these sort of things underground is, in my view bound to end in failure often in ways that are difficult to predict. The Catholic Church being one obvious example amongst many. Personally I favour honesty and openness, whilst also respecting your right to hold those views.

Will China really be the world force within the next decade?

LOL That might have been relevant when Nixon went there in 1972, but you are now at least 20 years out of date. China has been a world force for at least 20 years if not longer, and is currently arguably THE world force. Economically they are dictating the terms not us or the Americans. They actually have more US dollars in hard currency than the Americans do. Anytime they feel like telling us to poke it they can, and will do.

I know thats not likely to be a popular view, however, it doesn’t stop it being true.

I need to impress on him that I want some sort of help and not just some pills.

Personally, I would be very wary of walking in and dictating what you do and don’t need. I think you will find that whilst things like CBT can be extremely constructive, they are not always appropriate and can in fact be counter productive if you are not in a place to handle it.

The way my GP explained it to me was that my malfunctioning was down to a chemical imbalance in the brain, caused in simplistic terms by a build up from adrenalin over a long period of time, which in turn was caused by the fight or flight mechanism getting kicked in through workplace stress without the fight or flight occurring to burn it off. For that reason action needed to be taken to sort that out before I could attempt CBT, (which was great for me). I still need the drugs, but in decreasing amounts and hopefully one day that will cease altogether.

The best advice I can give is to find a sympathetic GP, (which is not always easy), took me 3 attempts. When I did the next hurdle is to relax into allowing help to occur. It won’t be quick, it might even be permanently required, but whatever happens it will definitely make you feel better if you allow it to, and that’s the key. Your form of words is implying that you may well not allow it to happen, thus the post.

Good luck, you are not alone as any post on this subject will show you.

Just bought Notes of a Russian Sniper: Vassili Zaitsev and the Battle of Stalingrad: from Amazon. Apparently enemy at the gate was based on it.

Spongebob: A point you may have overlooked in your DailyMailesque rant. Our laws, we broke them, our fault.

**** me, no wonder they don’t allow the victim near the courts.

Think about your own life and the impact that an 18 month prison term would have on you. Its a life changing sentence, (deserved), but have sense of proportion people. No one died.

Good grief! 😯

This thread was better without all the angst 🙄

Any expansion on

badly designed and made rubbish

Harry? I’m in the business (not Heritage)and am interested to know.

Incidentally Heritage in this context implies original old style product. Sometimes people imbue old with good by modern standards. It almost invairably wasn’t. Thats why they stopped making it when newer and better products came out.

North Korea is ready to use nukes

thats Ok, so are we…..

Try here:Local trail build group

The Trail-o-meter is regularly updated by local riders. As I understand it currently its been down rated to Poor to Fair due to frozen ground making some of the trails dangerously slippery.

we need to be thankful the new Government has decided to control the system.

Why does it need controlling?

Going back to my original point, I am coming to the conclusion that Xenophobia is a dish best taken without integration.

Seems an odd statement to make and clearly untrue.

I have a smattering of the East European languages, plus Portugese, Chinese, and a tiny bit of Erdu mainly due to the fact that I work on a farm where all of these nationalities have been employed, That is why I only ID’ed the nationalities I recognised. That apart I was chatting to the Sri Lankan couple in the checkout queue. I’m sure if I tried hard I could have ID’ed more.

And your point is?

oleagenous = Word of the day 😉

Soz, wrong forum not sure how I did that, but hey.

Regarding Stanley, what the IPPC says is that the process is flawed, not that the officers lied, which is my point, the way you have put it in your earlier post implies that they lied, which is not supported by the evidence as I and the IPCC are saying.

Come off it. Shooting someone cos you panicked means you lost control of the situation and of your emotions

Where does it say the officer who shot this guy panicked?? I’m certainly not aware of it. My understanding was that the objective was to terminate brain function rapidly so that there would not be either voluntary or involuntary detonation of the device they believed he had carried onto the train. Personally in the circumstances I would have thought that panic would have resulted in running in the opposite direction in.

Lets not pretend that the Police or anyone else are anything other than human, with all that that entails. They will makle mistakes they will recruit some right tits, but that what being human is.

On Stanley the IPCC report states that the officers evidence was not credible

Yet again it doesn’t. This is the direct quote for the IPCC Decision document.

It is also been alleged that the officers falsified their accounts of the shooting. The IPCC decision says:

” We acknowledge that the officers were making their notes in accordance with national procedure which allowed the officers to confer before writing their notes together. There is no evidence to suggest that the post incident protocol in place at the time was not properly followed. Later evidence has introduced the concept of “perceptual distortion” which we fully accept would create real doubts about whether an incident in fact happened the way an officer remembered it after a traumatic event. But it seems to us that the effect of perceptual distortion should be to create a credible degree of inconsistency, rather than an incredible degree of consistency. In our view the process adopted to obtain the accounts, in particular allowing the pooling of recollections, has given rise to the allegation that they were fabricated after the event and in creating such doubt about their version may well have done the officers a disservice.

As set out in the Surrey report, the allegation that the officers falsified their notes requires some intentional or deliberate act; it cannot be deduced solely from discrepancies with other evidence or the incredible consistency to which we have referred, unless there is no reasonable alternative. There are alternative explanations – that the officers shared a mistaken recollection, or that they were substantially correct. ”

The IPCC therefore believes that there is no realistic prospect that a police misconduct tribunal would find that either officer had breached the police Code of Conduct.

What it does is raise issues relating to high stress events and memory function afterwards. i.e. learns from the experience. which is entirely right and proper. What it doesn’t do is suggest they lied were disingenuous or anything of the sort. On the other hand what you are saying and the way you say it does.

This is a very brief trawl through your posts on her on the subject and where I have bothered to read up on the cases in question.

1. Harry Stanley.

Shot in the back as he walked down the road with a table leg in a bag.

No he wasn’t and you are deliberately being misleading by leaving out salient points like the fact that the Police who were called had been told he was carrying a sawn off shotgun
2. Stephen Waldorf

In his car in a traffic jam – shot with no warning

Who survived and whose case is the reason for all the rules around Police firearms to this day. This incident happened 27 years ago so its hardly current news now either. When do you stop trawling up the past? Apparently they were pretty crap at investigating the original ripper going to bring that up next??
3. Your reference to the Independent article in support of your argument which prompted this response from me,

Just a very brief glace at that independabt article leaves me with the overiding thought…… “and your point is TJ??”

when it transpires that a high proportion of those named in the article in support of your argument about Police shooting innocent people recklessly were not entirely innocent apparently.
4.

The inquests and the IPCC report are badly flawed as alluded to in the IPCC report

In reference to the IPCC report which critcises certain elements of overall Police protocol, but actually exonerates the officers that shot Stanley from blame.
5.

And they clearly lied in the evidence they gave”

There is no evidence to support that statement and in fact it is not what the IPCC report says.
6.

YOu continue to follow the disinformation line put out by the police tho – its nothing to do with mentally ill folk walking the street. its to do with overhyped up cops who shoot first and regret later.

As stated above the IPCC report specifically refers to research showing that you are incorrect.
7.

Stanley was turning away when he was hit in the head, not turning towards. Makes him even less of a threat then. Actually we don’t know for sure – the independent experts evidence is at odds with the cops.

No it isn’t it supported them read the IPCC report

For the record the IPCC have no relationship with the Police whatsoever, other than to investigate complaints made against them. The commission is made up of people who are recruited onto it for a 3 year term and have a backgorund demonstrating strength of character amongst other attributes. For example my brother was recruited as a result of an extremely difficult and lengthy trial in which he gave evidence and was cross examined for over a month and where he received a judicial commendation as a result. do not make the mistake of thinking they are the stooges of the Police. You will find your police colleagues would beg to differ.

Find one post where I indulged in “police bashing”

This did not take any great length of time to do and wasn’t aimed at being exhasutive.

TJ Read this then comment :

It was them irresponsible fuzz what dun it

This has been up before, and you couldn’t possibly make all the comments you have made about Harry Stanley if you had taken the opportunity to educate yourself on this matter.

Furthermore, could I point you specifically to the section titled learning the lessons, from which I quote here

While it may have made no difference in this case, research has shown that individuals under the influence of alcohol (or drugs, or suffering from mental health problems) are disproportionately likely to be shot by police.

I stick by what I said previously and which you ridculed as Police propaganda. Frankly this Plod bashing really boils my wee, they aren’t all angels obviously, and there should be proper investigative process when serious incidents take place, but this constant drone of unfounded critcism really isn’t helpful. How about you try moaning about the proliferation of weapons on the street that has led to the need for more armed officers instead?? I’m sure the yardies/albanians/drug dealers/gangs would love to engage in open and honest debate with you on it.

I’m not completely convinced that it is. Because if the issue here is that he has a “human right” to family life,

Utter tosh Ernie and you know it. The man who wrote the legislation has actually admitting publically that the guy has exploited a loophole in the law that he wrote and that its wrong and outside the intent of the law not good enough then?

This was not something that occurred to the law makers when the legislation was written. Jack Straw who was responsible for it was on yesterday talking about tabling an amendment in parliament to close an unintended loop hole that has allowed this to happen.

In that context its neither human rights or soft leftyism. Its the law, and that law needs changing. Simple as that.

Wouldn’t disagree with that, but the incorporating into training bit has been done for years. They also draw on experiences of other forces around the world for operational guidance. Unfortunately though the Plod do tend to get blamed for the fact that due to our attitude to mental health there are a lot of nutters wandering the streets without a nurse. Ultimately it will always come down to the fact that if you are behaving erratically and there is a fella there who beleives you to be armed and dangerous a split second decision later you may be dead.

My ex best mate was a firearms officer. I can’t tell you how often he got called out, but it was several times a week every week. Eventually he and his team shot someone. It was rock solid stone cold correct and they all received commendations over it. A few years on every single member of that team have left the force, all with alcohol problems and most have left their wives/families/partners. Its too easy to just criticise the Police. They are not all thugs behaving recklessly and with impunity. some may well be, but most aren’t.

NB: The case is now used as an example of how not to treat a unit that has been in that situation and the outcomes described are widely seen to tbe the responsibility of the force in question and not the officers concerned.