I think you are missing the point that the one behind the scenes is in fact one of these

too regardless of prevailing tie colour, and has been pretty much forever.

I’m sure they are all lovely people…well except Andrew…..and Phil the Greek, and… well some of them might be quite nice, anyway thats not the point, the point is it is an anachronism which perpetuates the class system and the attitudes that led to the worst excesses of our colonial past. What to replace it with is an entirely different argument, and there are plenty of models to choose from, but not to move with the times is the same as walking about with one of these

and pretending it is fundamentally doing the same job as one of these

.

i.e I guess there is an argument, its just self evidently not a very good one

Better than being french.

Well speaking as a European I find your comment rather provincial… 😐

I still have pride in being British and what the country stands for. Part of that pride is based on the culture and values of Great Britain, although they seem to ebb away every day…

What like being an failing colonial power, still reveling in the fac tthat we have historically taken whatever we chose by force, leaving in our wake horrendous turmoil that carries on for centuries, or a system based on nepotism and privilige that actively gravitates against achieving excellence and therefore reversing that decline?

I don’t know the answers, but I suspect that this is closer to the right thing to do rather than the hang em flog em off with their heads school of thought..

Incredibly moving and dignified and one in the eye for the Islam bashers

I got one about two years ago for parking for 5 minutes on a piece of private land: Reason I was helping stop a fight in the shop owners premises. What actually annoyed me most was the fact that despite the fact their own trade organsiation prohibits them doing it, they clearly tried to pass the ticket off as a pucker parking ticket. It is not, its an invoice. From that point forth I’ve had no sympathy whatsoever and will not pay it under any circumstances. They still phone me and threaten me with a pox on my house and all sorts of dire retribution, presuambly when its a quiet day in the office, but nothing more has ever come of it. I am mulling over an action for harassment, but not sure if the fun of doing that is worth the hastle.

Firmly in the scum of the earth don’t give in to them camp.

Don’t know about songs, but I did wonder if the gangstas take over and oust the government would we have moved from democracy to Hip-hopcracy??

In China at the moment and just picked all this up on the interweb.

Embaressing …… very very embaressing.

That is all.

I used to be in the security industry back in the day. A mate of mine developed 40mm Thick plywood sledgehammer proof doors for local authority use. What they then found was scrotes were knocking the locks out, so they then came up with a sandwich plate to reinforce the door at that point, so the scrotes then turned their attention to the hinge side, so again a reinforcing sandwich plate was done for them, then they started knocking the whole door and frame out together, and that was where frame fixings came in. That pretty much did it, except that they then actually started knocking holes through walls.

The moral of the story, your security is only as strong as the weakest point wherever that might be, and you cannot stop a determined attack. Generally the whole deal is to make it easier for them to go elsewhere rather than your gaff.

The lunacy is that the real cost of motoring is heavily subsidised, whilst public transport is not. Its one of the many drawbacks of a democratic system. You have to get selfish people to vote for you, so no one wants to say Ok Mr.Motorist once we factor in all the costs from your driving petrol is going to be £3 a litre or similar. Personally I reckon a good quality realistically priced public transport network would more than compensate for the Clarkson’s of this world, but then its not my job on the line.

Regarding the off peak ticket price, how do you know how much it is “normally”? When my kids were at university I booked them off peak tickets routinely, and I don’t think I ever got the same price twice. What I do know is that walk up ticket purchases are horrendously expensive even at off peak times. Kin daft IMHO

yossarian – Member
Go and see a proper, registered and respected orthopaedic consultant FIRST.

A very large plus 1!

Having palmed off a variety of back issues over the years with a combination of MTFU and anti inflamatories. The crunch came when I developed an allergy to the pills, and then soon after found that 10 minutes on my feet resulted in numb legs and literally no feeling from the waist down. After an MRI Scan it transpired that I had prolapsed disc problems which were then compacting the nerves to my legs. I had veiled this for years, and it was only when I was forced to deal with it that I found this out way too late for real solutions. However, what I do now know is had I dealt with it earlier, simple physiotherarpy would have made a profound difference very easily.

Pain is gods way of suggesting something is wrong. So don’t just palm it off. Get to the root cause. Incidentally it took visits to 3 seperate doctors to get taken seriously and get the MRI scan. Mostly I was getting told to MTFU and take these pills!!!

Any thoughts or experience of 25 euro traffic fines in France? It doesn’t really make sense to me.

Anyone?? £22 doesn’t seem like the amount of a fine to me, I have checked and fixed penalty speeding tickets are much higher so absolutely no idea what this might be for and there nothing to tell you on the Europcar invoice either.

Just had 2 amounts of 25 euros deducted from my credit card by said europcar, for two alledged traffic infringments 3 minutes apart from when I hired a car in May. Been driving over there for 20 or 30 years without any issues whatsoever, nothing untoward occured to the best of my knowledge. Any thoughts or experience of 25 euro traffic fines in France? It doesn’t really make sense to me.

A bit less judging and a bit more understanding and sympathy would make all our lives a little bit better…

Personally I don’t think any more than this needs to be said

Do yer reckon it will lead to others going too? (he said more in hope than expectation)

in the manner of a rally car and with the ‘you can do whatever the hell you like to a hire car’ attitude

I guess this sums up why they are like that. Anyway, this is what God made camera phones for. Very much a plus one for photographing damage at pick up and the condition on hand back. Resolves these sort of disputes really quickly.

I met up with Tankslapper and Zokes after a post on here. It would be difficult to find three more different people, but we got on really well and still do. Something to do with common interests I guess….. No not MTB, beer and boobs basically.

Given the high level of bullingdon club involvement in this latest resignation, one could be forgiven for suspecting that the copper has been used as a buffer for Dave.

Regarding corruption, anytime you expect a greater degree of morality from your public servants than from the public they serve you are setting yourself up for a fall. Therefore these things should be structurally prevented, i.e the system is self regulating. Expenses supported by receipts style, personal gratuities entirely verboten, so no argument if one is taken you are fired, sort of thing. It needs to be expected that some people will be corrupt, rather than hands be thrown up in horror when it transpires that some are.

Davetrave: Hi from thetford. How the hell are you? Have a look at the website and spot the new trailbuilding kit. You’ll like 8)

G

I think the correct terminology is the RAF is professional but funded by a bunch of amateurs who assume that it possible to cut the cost of active service substantially without also scaling it down.

Perhaps I’m thick, but the point of this thread completely escapes me.

I know.

Surely the only answer is for all of us to live within our means both on an individual and a societal level.

So it seems to me that a basic level of care should be state funded for all within the budgets available, then after that its down to you to provide for yourself if you want higher standards of care. Dare I say that run well its even possible to envisage the latter subsidising the former to some extent.

I can’t see any reasonable alternative.

good thread TJ.

Personally I have very mixed feelings about it. My folks struggled all their lives, and to them the end result was a small house which they wanted to go to their kids. As a direct result of this my mother point blank refused to have any help and when she was severely ill refused to go to hospital for fear of losing her one asset. Ultmately, I had to have her sectioned to get her proper medical care, she died in hospital and left the house to the kids. I would have given my right arm to get her proper residential care.
Conversely my mother and father in law lived their whole married lives in a council house. F-i-L went down with alzheimers and they were moved after much faffing (on their part about whether this home was right or the other was) into sheltered accomodation. F-i-L dies, and M-i-L remains there in accomodation of exceptionally high standard, contributing not one penny. She is constantly giving her children and grandchildren money to manage her assets at below the threshold whereby she has to pay.

Bottom line: Its not a simple equation and there are many twists and turns in it. Personal view is that whatever you do, don’t suddenly change the rules creating a situation where people who have had an understanding of how things will be all their life in their retirement, suddenly receive another body blow, of the “oh and by the way” type.

PS: F-i-L was a Japense POW wounded and captured during the fall of Hong Kong, He was subsequently torpedoed by the americans while on a hell ship being transferred to Japan as Slave labour, he saw his war out in Kobe, where his camp was bombed several times. He was one of only 92 men in his battalion to survive the war. He was unable to work for any sustained period of time after the war due to the physical and mental injuries he suffered. M-i-L’s financial issues relate to inheriting his compensation payment of £10,000 paid by the Japanese government a few years back.

My son had the opportunity to go to Oxford. Went to visit, and came back with a resounding “no way”. Much as I tried to persuade him otherwise he was absolute in his opinion that he found it extremely alien and he would be a fish out of water being Comprehensive educated.
As a matter of interest I was in a position to educate him privately, but we were advised that we were better off to stick with our local comprehensive unless he was particularly sports minded, as that was the only area in which any of the local public schools out shone the local state school. It transpired that that advice was correct, as its difficult to see how privately acquired straight A+ grades would have been bettered by the state ones.

Anecdotal I know, but it does rather emphasise the inaccuracy in this statement.

There probably is a small amount of ‘old boy’ stuff but not that much

My son is not the only person I’ve heard say such a thing and refused the opportunity for this reason.

resulted to name calling and “saving face”.

I’m not going to repeat myself for your benefit, but all points raised in your latest post have already been addressed by my prior ones try looking.

So you accept that ‘arguing’ is your word and not mine then ? Excellent.

Never in debate ernie, not for that matter particularly relevant. As above the point is already answered…. try looking.

Calling me names wont change this.

I wasn’t it was a statement of the obvious.

yossarian: Try reading what I post FFS… I’ll help you this one time
You:

Why do you prefer the guardian?

Me:

it may come as a shock to you that just because you can find something on the internet it does not automatically mean its true, most especially a news paper article.

Idiot! 🙄

Yossarian: Fitwatch?? Fitwatch????? Better with the guardian, albeit it does support my point in that 3 separate officers reported Harewood. And that is not the same as a general Police cover up. What it actually suggests is that what cover up there might have been was by the City of London police, i.e. one tiny unit. That apart it may come as a shock to you that just because you can find something o nthe internet it does not automatically mean its true, most especially a news paper article.

Grum Refer to Yossarians Guardian article it fairly conclusively blows you out of the water with the 3 officers reporting the incident before the video was released.

TJ: I have no idea why Patel was appointed, but I would quote you from your Guardian article where they state

Last night a second post mortem examination, intitiated by Tomlinson’s family and the IPCC, was being carried out by Dr Nat Cary.

So that’ll be the IPCC, one of the checks and balances that I am talking about doing precisely what I said would happen.

Junkyard :

If there were no legal avenues left why has the copper now been charged?

See the response to TJ above…..or simply for you because the checks and balances in the system work obviously.

So then Yossarian …

Edit: Oh and Ernie a few defintions of the word argue

1. To put forth reasons for or against; debate: “It is time to stop arguing tax-rate reductions and to enact them” (Paul Craig Roberts).
2. To attempt to prove by reasoning; maintain or contend: The speaker argued that more immigrants should be admitted to the country.
3. To give evidence of; indicate: “Similarities cannot always be used to argue descent” (Isaac Asimov).
4. To persuade or influence (another), as by presenting reasons: argued the clerk into lowering the price.

Apologies: You are quite right, no argument!

cheers crankboy. For a while there I thought the ability to read had mystically been replaced by the pre existing ability to post drivel..

Regarding tomilinson, my point is broadly similar, not that it didn’t happen or that it wasn’t totally wrong. Self evidently that wasn’t the case. The point I’m disputing and which is being made again in respect of this thread and on those about Tomilinson is one of a Police conspiracy where unassociated officers are linked to the Police hive mind and automatically cover stuff up. That may have been the case 20 years or more ago in the days of the West Midland Serious Crime Squad, but its not now. With Tomlinson the initial issue was that Freddie Patel found that Tomlinson died of things that could not be related to the baton strike or the push. So in terms of legal action against the copper concerned there was nowhere to go. I’ve said on here all along, that before people start pointing fingers and spouting off about conspiracies they should wait for the outcome, because there are checks and balances in the system nowadays which make it incredibly hard to cover things up. The eventual outcome is the proof of that point, and frankly I don’t actually need to provide any more evidence of the correctness of my position than that. Happy to be persuadedd otherwise, but that would take rational argument backed up with facts rather than whats is posted above.

Your counter to ernie’s point is wildly wide of the mark,

Not sure what that means but happy to respond if you would care to clarify it

your ascertions regarding ian tomlinson plainly incorrect

Really? and what evidence to do you have to support your ascertion? mine is mainly bound up in the actual facts of the case which are a matter of public record as opposed to wild and unproven accusations on an MTB website.

and yet you think your a winner because someone thinks its pointless to argue with you?

I’m not sure I’ve ever mentioned winning or losing in the context of this thread. Just pointed out the irony in Ernie suggesting that its a waste of time arguing with anyone over anything, partly because he does more of it than most and partly because of his own intransigence when he believes himself to be right, which to be fair is pretty much all the time.

It’s a complete waste of time trying to discuss anything with you Berm Bandit

I suspect that may well be a case of people living in glass houses!

And their employers agree with me – a copper done for drink driving will be kicked out of the police force.

In much the same way that any other professional driver will lose their job if disqualified through D & D, so whats your point ernie? If anything that confirms my point rather than contradicts it. i.e. I don’t expect the Police in general to have higher moral standards than the general population, so shockingly I do expect that there are corrupt coppers, and those who drink too much and those who are kiddy fiddlers and in all liklihood they will be in pretty much the exact same proportions as they are in the population at large. To suggest anything else is naieve beyond belief, but also suggests that like the general population the majority are law abiding citizens just like you and me.

The article also made it clear that the police were at least aware of the NOTW’s behaviour in the Dowler case.

Does it also point out the similarly blindingly obvious fact that they were keeping it schtum until the trial was over?

Well if that’s the case, then that in itself raises another set of questions altogether.

I’ll take that as acceptance of my point then.

berm bandit, you do know that wade admitted that her paper regularly paid met officers for information……..

I don’t doubt it for a moment, but then I don’t expect public servants to have higher moral standards than anyone else. However that is not the point. What binners is doing is suggesting that there is a conspiracy on the part of the Met here. I am merely suggesting that that is utter ballcocks, if for no other reason because they couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery let alone a decent conspiracy.

The only reason the truth came out was because someone produced a very damning footage of film which completely undermined what the Met had said.

I think you will find that the reason it came out was actually the full and thorough investigation by the IPCC, and the discarding of the evidence given by Freddie Patel intially, which left no case to answer, except via internal dicipline (which incidentally was suspended while formal investigations were being carried out). Once the legal process was completed they then lamped the guy and quite rightly so too. But you believe whatever you care to make up to feed your own predjudices.

I’m going out on a limb here, but could they possibly have been getting them from sources within the met?

**** me here we go again with yet another conspiracy theory which will turn out to have absolutely no foundation. I notice that all the people knocking the met over the G20 case have overlooked to admit they were entirely wrong in respect of all the accusations of cover up. No doubt the same will be true here.

The Milly Dowler situation has only now come to light becuase prior to the Levi Bellfield trial it could have jeapordised the case. Its that simple.

Regarding obtaining numbers, anyone missed the potential and vastly more realsitic source of information that is O2/Orange/Vodafone/ etc etc where £20 will buy you a lote more than it might once have done at Scotland Yard?

FFS get a grip

myself I doubt she would have been paid off unless there was plenty she was doing wrong

Unless of course she had a cast iron rock solid case for constructive dismissal which I pretty sure she does.

As I understand she headed a CC that claimed it was going to outsource all council services

I think she was tasked with implementing the policy that the council decided upon rather than the other way around to be fair.

**** **** **** ….I keep doing that!

Sorry people. Whats the best way round it Repost in chat?

Cynic: Thats the point. Theres been a withchunt going on for ages, which seems to centre around the facts that a) shes a women b) she is apparently too good looking for her job.. c) earns a good wack, and not much else. As the report says they couldn’t actually find anything wrong

I drove past an accident yesterday. Motorcyclist had been twatted by a 4 x 4 on the Elveden Crossroads near Thetford.

Reasons:
1) There were loads of people there already
2) Emergency services were on their way
3) The place was congested enough without me adding to it unnecessarily

Generally I will stop and help and have done on many occasions, but I don’t feel the slightest guilt for not stopping yesterday. So maybe that explains why some folk don’t stop…. i.e. they don’t think that by doing so they will help in anyway.

Always sad when someone dies like this, however, I recently lost a much loved nephew in a M/c accident….all properly kitted up and everything, but thats not the point. We used to have the conversation about risk and the dangers, (I stopped riding after a spell at speedway which woke me up to my own mortality, so have a slightly negative view of it all). His response was along the lines of “I want to go with my boots on doing what I enjoy”. All fair enough, apart from the fact he was out of it afterwards. His mum Dad, fiance and family were the ones left suffering and still are. So frankly IMHO people who are careless of their own safety are at best unthinking, and at worst selfish.

effectively slagging a bunch of scientists without really knowing what it is they were doing or why.

Nope I think it had more to you having an issue with your weight to be fair, which was precisely my point. The mechanics of people putting on weight is not rocket science there is a vast body (sic) of knowledge there already. We know the “how”, its the “why” thats the issue, and making cheap headlines is not in my opinion good work either by the report writers or the journos who picked it up on a slow news day.

PS: thanks….I thought it was pretty effective too …. 😉