No, I think it’s more complicated than that. There’s flex in the rubber of the tyre which means that as the wheel rotates and brings new un-flexed tread into contact with the ground the tyre will ‘walk’ slightly towards the outside of the bend. This is not the same as breaching the limits of static friction. It’s why pushing it on road tyres feels different to actually losing it, and one reason (a big one I expect) why slicks work better than normal tyres

There is actually some truth in what you are saying there, but it does not actually change the physics of what you should do in the event of under-steer.

But I am going to bow out as this is not the Bazzer and Molgrips show :-)

Good god is there nothing we won’t argue the shit out of on this forum? Really?

I was just thinking that was what made this place so good :-)

Was just thinking this morning how some other forums I am on are so boring in comparison. I mean who wants to talk bikes all the time :-)

A non-skidding tyre is not moving LATERALLY relative to the road. So static friction is the main factor. Once you start to skid then it’s not.. which is why you can no longer steer when your are locking the wheels up under braking.

As soon as you are turning there is slip even if you are turning a tinsy winsy bit. Its producing camber thrust and that is what makes you turn. When the tyre is skidding you have exceeded its maximum slip angle and it is no longer producing camber thrust so it can’t turn.

I didn’t even need to google that ;-)

Or, loosely in Physics terms, it’s the ratio of static friction to dynamic friction that’s important. Meaning that static friction is that experienced when the two things are not moving (but having force applied) and dynamic being when they are moving.

LOL very loose physics terms :-)sorry moly do you know what static friction is ? Its the force between two objects THAT ARE NOT MOVING AGAINST EACH OTHER !!! that is got nothing to do with it.

Either that or I don’t understand it and you are right :-)

You are allowed to say you are wrong and don’t really know, its not against the law of the internet :-)

It does matter. Different situations have different requirements.

The only time you do something different is when you know you have no chance and you then just hit the brakes and put your head against the headrest and hope to minimise the damage.

But I am happy to here an explanation of how it is different.

Not trying to have a go, just want to know where your coming from.

Depends what’s on the outside of the bend I went through all sorts on that car, I’m confident I had it down.

Only that car tho, later cars a) had much more grip and b) were driven much more sensibly, so that’s as far as my experience goes Like I say, it depends on what the surface is and why you are skidding/not gripping. Gravelly skids at lower speeds aren’t the same as tarmac ones at high speed.

Makes no difference what’s on the outside of the bend you will track a tigher arc and be less likely to get to the outside of the bend IF YOU REDUCE LOCK. The physics are the physics its to do with the maximum slip angle of the tyre for a given speed. Grip increases with slip angle up to a point where it falls off quickly. So reducing lock and slip angle will get you round the corner better.

You watch a rally driver on the loose as soon as he looses front grip he will unwind the steering find grip then wind it on again.

It really does not matter if you are on tarmac, mud, ice or custard you caney defy the laws of physics captain :-)

I found what worked on gravelly muddy country roads was to steer even more into the bend whilst not braking much, this would promote some deceleration and some sideways movement of the front of the car, which would tend to help the back come out a bit more and get the car pointing more the right way.

Different for different cars and corners tho I suppose.

That only works because your tyre scrubbing reduces speed to a point where the tyres can grip again. You might find you would have had control earlier if you had reduced the lock slightly its counter intuitive but it does work.

When the car is not turning most people turn the wheel more, this is wrong.

There are some exercises you can do in a big off road area which will make this clear. One of which is to drive in a circle at a constant speed without under-steer increase speed slowly until you get under-steer. Hold it like this for a short while then take off a little steering and miraculously the car grips again. If you think of the physics its obvious but its not obvious when you are heading for the lamppost :-)

This was somthing I did with Andy Walsh at the “On the limit” driving course I did.

We also did some things that were really helpful in saving yourself if you happen to go into a corner to hot. You may exit the corner slower than if you got it right but at least you are on the black stuff still :-)

Thing is with any physical skill it takes practice to get it right. Being comfortable and controlling a skid in a car is not different to doing it on a mountain bike. You have to do it a lot before you become comfortable with it.

To be safe on the road its best to avoid putting yourself in that position and training in better observation reading the road will do this.

but…….

Driving a car on the limit on track is massive fun and can be very rewarding. I used to do circa a dozen track days a year for a number of years and it does improve you on the limit car control.

I also did a couple of courses with Andy Walsh at Car limits (link posted above) and that was very good but like anything you need to practice it afterwards and the road is not the place to do.

I did find however when I was doing lots of track days I did not feel the need to drive like a tool on the road so that’s good. I still don’t as its never as good as much fun as on the track so no point.

I think bookatrack are hard to beat for trackdays they are pretty good at enforcing the rules so hence its safer for everyone.

My next point of call is to start doing some track days on my motorbike so looking forward to more fun.

I was not old enough to ride a bike when they were built. Look really cool though.

TJ is talking sense he can just rough people up the wrong way when he is making a point sometimes :-)

I think what he is saying if your not careful you could be put off before you get chance to experience the fun side of riding.

Having a bike you can actually use is important. If its going to be a toy and for fun it actually needs to be fun. If its not it will rust in the garage. I might ride 50miles to visit a mate for no reason on my bike but would not do that in the car as the journey will be part of the reason for going. Would not do that on a 125 as it would be tiresome. But I also would not go just round the corner as I always put my leathers on so can’t be bothered to do that for a 1 mile trip down the road so I either walk or take the car. So I would probably not bother using a 125.

125’s carry a premium because its easy for people to access them without a lot of peripheral cost. They don’t do a lot of miles before they need work and can be quite tiring to ride. Also tend to be owned by people running them on a budget and can be neglected.

So if you have something that is useful you will use it more and enjoy it :-)

On just a CBT (assuming you are at least 17 :D) you can ride a 14.6BHP 125

If you take your Theory, and practical tests as well on a 125cc you can then ride any cc bike as long as it has no more than 33BHP

So if you went that route I would have thought some >125 with a lot less than 33BHP would be cheaper. Not sure what falls into this category as its not something I have looked at.

Best thing is go to a bike dealer look at all the really shiny cool bikes with bling bits on them realise you need to have one do DAS and sell a kidney and buy a new Ducati 1198 :-)

Cool that makes a lot of sense.

If your on a budget for the bike then anything remotely sexy is pretty much out as sex costs :-)

The amount of fun you can have on a 125 will depend on which one you get. All have crap power but some have nice handling and are fun to ride (if not a little frustrating)

One of the changes in the second hand bike market is that smaller lower power bikes now have a market again as people who didn’t do DAS or are not 21 or over are limited to 33BHP so bikes that typically fell in between a proper big bike and a learner bike now have a market again.

If you want to run something older and interesting though its going to cost you in the wallet or in time spannering yourself.

So it might just be worth getting something not so cool to start with enjoy it build up some no claims and then if you enjoy it move up.

Just try not to be put off, the difference between a crap bike and a good one is huge.

Al your original post details what sort of thing you fancied but did not really say why you wanted it.

I would stop worrying about the fast bike will kill you thing. The biggest threat you have on a bike is at junctions with cars pulling out on you. These don’t go away on a 50cc bike.

Why not do your DAS on a 500cc bike so your choice is totally open. You will get a good idea if the whole idea is for you or not.

Incidentally I got a new bike the other week a Triumph Street Triple its a 675cc naked (no faring) bike with around a 100BHP. It will out accelerate most supercars to 100mph, but its so easy to ride and so forgiving of mistakes. It looks cool and because there is no fairing it keeps my straight line speed down. It really is such an easy and stable bike to ride.

I would not feel safer on any of the smaller bikes mentioned in this thread. I have the brakes grip and power(if needed) to get myself out of trouble much easier and its upto me if I want to use the power to get into more trouble but I can choose not too.

I think skills courses would help more if done right at the beginning of peoples riding.

Once you have been riding for a while it is very difficult to change that. Most of us are not disciplined enough to let our riding level go backwards in order to go forwards.

I think once you ride at a reasonable level you need a lot of coaching to make a difference and it needs to be on going.

Its not cut and dry is it though. If you were riding around town at low speeds the extra viability and peripheral vision might be better for avoiding an accident in the first place.

I don’t ride without helmet, gloves and leathers but sometimes I do think I would be more comfortable and less distracted if I was not.

Why not take your test and see how you feel after you have done a bit of riding.

As people have said you will be riding a 500cc bike for your test and your views might change.

A CB125 is one of the most terrifying bikes I have ridden in modern times. I know I have been spoilt by decent disk brakes. The CB125 I rode had practically no brakes. My mountain bike has better brakes.

Aren’t most of the above going to fall apart if used all year round in our British weather ?

I reckon most would become tiresome as everyday transport.

Yes it was close and the Speed does have a presence, it looks like a big bike.

To sum it up I thought the Speed was all about the engine and the street was all about the chassis.

Might swap it for a speed when the new 2011 version drops in price a bit.

PS edited to add Triumph dealer was fantastic, no problem in getting a test ride ;-)

Had a change of heart on the Daytona. Realised the only reason I was looking at them was because they were better value than the Speed Triple second hand.

Went to the local Triumph dealer and they were great. Test rode a Speed triple and Street Triple. Speed was fantastic but when I rode the Street Triple R I was blown away. Not as much by the engine but the handling was fantastic. Just like my old R6 except comfier :-)

So I bought a 09 Street Triple R in Orange and I pick it up on Friday :-) Can’t wait :-)

These pre pay cards work well.

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/prepaidcards/?tab=2&p=0&keywords=euro+prepaid+cardExact&ef_id=TKWH1AqoEEQAAByw7WwAABho:20110622142435:s

Only problem is they take so long to put money on it at the airport I often can’t be bothered and get cash.

I don’t care what they call me as long as they pay my rate :-)

I would say some some software is written by engineers using engineering principles and some is not.

A control control system lid a PID controller could need an understanding of 2nd order differential equations much like would be needed to control something in a mechanical way. The analysis would be pretty much the same as if you were to solve the problem mechanically with a mass, spring and damper solution. I think this would most definitely be an engineering exercise.

Thanks for all the input !!!

Looked at an absolute mint 2005 Daytona in yellow yesterday it was like new complete with the high level carbon race can.

Looking at another one tomorrow, so may have some pictures after the weekend :-)

I am a contractor too and often “plan” stuff for when my current contract finishes. Invariably though someone calls me and I have more work. Its very hard to turn down work when you don’t know if you will have any more for a while.

In 15 years I have had work apart from when I did a ski season 2 years ago. I am sure if I have looked for work I probably would have found some then too.

I like the fact it gives me the illusion of being in control of who for and when though :-)

I now have an Aprilia Rsvs-r which has far more soul than I can handle at the moment…

Bet that sounds great, is the R model the one with the Ohlins suspension ?

5thElefant You could well be right :-)

Only reason I am considering a cheaper bike is that I never rode my last one towards the end so I am not sure how much I would use it. My circumstances have changed now and my commute is longer so I am thinking I may get more use out of it, but I am not sure.

oldgrump I have been looking on triumphtorque, lot of good info on there.

Interestingly Speed triples, hold their money much better than Daytona’s

Cant decide if I should go for a late 2006 one with low miles for about 3.5k or just get an older one for 1.5K and not worry about it being slightly tatty and just enjoy riding it.

Would service it my self so would not scrimp. I built a Turbo Hayabusa engine that is still going strong in my old Westfield so I reckon it should not be too hard.

Thanks for the feedback chaps, I realise I don’t need the latest and greatest 1L bike and I have always loved the styling of the T595 and I don’t reckon it will be as heavy as my old ZX9R B4 :-)

Edited to add, nice pic :-)

Because you’d always buy from a shop that gave you a test ride and would never, ever just ride it then buy online…..

Well I was quite pleased that Cycles Works in Burpham let me have a Patriot to test ride in Wales for a weekend. I took it back on the Monday and ordered a bike, so no I would not go online afterwards. The service I got was worth the £100 or so I could have saved. I also sent 3 other people to them who also got decent test rides. Two bought 5’s from them and the other bought a P7.

I can understand it might be hard for the likes of Cotic and the smaller companies to provide a large demo fleet. But for money machines like Specialized, Trek and Scott etc there is no excuse for anot having a comprehensive way of getting a test ride. While everyone is happy to say how impossible it would be then LBS’s wont be putting pressure on the importers and the importers on the manufacturers.

That’s pretty good, isn’t it? How do you get an invite – just show an interest, or is it that you’ve bought cars through the dealer previously?

I just rang them up and asked for a test drive and they said what did I want the car for. I told them track days to they said to you want to come and drive it on a track rather then the road.

Radical invited me as I had bought some engine parts from them in the past and showed an interest in the car.

How many car companies offer the same model in a range of sizes?

They had 70K tied up in the Radical I drove you can buy a lot of bikes for that.

Why don’t the manufactures/importers do a touring road show of their bikes They should have a fleet and they should be out somewhere every weekend through the spring summer months.

They do…..

I know they do, but it does seem a bit half hearted and they don’t od it as often as they should.

The industry moans about competing with online suppliers etc then does nothing about it.

The reason Caterham, Porshe, BMW etc etc make it easy to test drive things is they know that when people try their product they like it and it sells its self.

When I had my old TVR I used to pop into the dealership for a cuppa as some people might in their LBS they were always trying to get me to drive one of the newer models. They knew that if they can get you in the car you will like it and will start thinking about buying one.

How many people have been in their LBS and the owner says why don’t you take the new Tracer out for the afternoon. Secretly knowing they will come back wanting one so bad they will sell their kidney.

Did you pay for the test drive or was it free for potential customers?

Free they arranged days where prospective customers could come and drive the cars.

I was invited for a test drive of a Radical SR3 afterwards the cheeky beggars tried to charge me a fee I told them where to go.

Why don’t the manufactures/importers do a touring road show of their bikes They should have a fleet and they should be out somewhere every weekend through the spring summer months. You can’t expect people to drop loads of cash without trying them.

What you are asking to do is the equivalent of test driving a Caterham/Atom/KTM X-bow, but complaining that they won’t let you drive one on a track and in the process wreck the value of the test-car.

Had a test drive of my Westfield Megabusa on track at Curbourgh before I bought it. Lots of car companies offer this sort of thing.

Bike shops are still stuck back in the day where bikes cost a few 100 quid. If they want to sell 3-5K toys they need learn that you can’t expect to do it like you used too.

Yes its someone special day, so wear a suit and take your jacket off later if its hot.

If its a not quite so formal suit you can wear a shirt that will still look OK if you take your tie off too.

Only if they are trying to convince you that there is a God. That’s not the point of this thread though.

If you are a Christian then you should be as evangelising is part of the deal :-)

My argument/irritation with the ‘Prove it’ brigade, is unless you can prove it without a shadow of a doubt, then it doesn’t exist. Which is stupid as we know about lots of things that we cannot prove (yet)

Thats really not true most rational people realise that we don’t know every thing. We use evidence to to home in on the truth at the moment that truth is changing all the time. The idea is to build up evidence and get closer to the truth.

What rational people don’t do is decide something is true because of a “feeling” or because they like the sound of it. There is no verifiable evidence of the existence of a god NONE. In the whole history of mankind no one has been able to provide a shred of verifiable evidence. That is why rational people dismiss god. On the other hand we may be way off with the big bang theory but at least there is some verifiable evidence that supports it (galaxy’s moving away from each other for one) in the future evidence my refute it then we will use that to come up with another theory and if that theory says god created the universe then I will kneel in the pew on Sunday with the rest of the congregation. Until then I will ride my bike :-)

Having a cold starting when I am riding in Wales at the weekend :-(

I really hope Daryl has been consulted and there is a plan in place to reduce the impact to his business. People travel along way to do the uplift and many camp in the summer. So it is of benefit to the local area as well as to Daryl. I would be gutted if the Cwmcarn uplift got closed :-(

Yep deffo sense of occasion driving it :-)

It was set up for the track so used to follow the camber of the road etc. So I always felt glad I made it back alive after a blast on the road :-)

I had a Westfield with a Haybusa engine in it for 10 years (just sold it) Used it mainly for track days but it was road legal. Was brutally fast and a lot of fun on track.

I personally don’t get the 7 thing on the road, mind you mine was pretty extreme in its final guise it was 300BHP and weighed 480KG with a full cage and no windscreen.

Made so much sense on track and very little on the road. I am sure a saner car with a windscreen etc would make more sense as a road car.

Loved that car though :-)

I know this does not happen often but I have to agree with Mols on this one.