AS it’s a spoiler thread:

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How did Half Man Half Biscuit put it?

You call Glastonbury “Glasto”

You’d like to go there one day

When they put up the gun towers

To keep the hippies away

I don’t think you get it andrew. To make things simple for you I’ll let you know that I think the class system is a bad thing. I’ll let you know that to me it’s obvious it exists.

Sorry mate, I think you don’t get it. You’re choosing to ignore the fact that I’m saying that the effects of people’s belief in the class system are real. I could swap tinker and miner family stories with you if you like but I’m none too fussed to do so – I’ve not made a fetish out of mine.

How did Funkadelic put it all that time ago? Free your mind and your ass will follow. Marx and Engels said pretty much the same thing but without the funk.

To save you the bother of thinking angry man,

Angry? Quite the opposite. But, please, spare me the pain of thinking and think for me, go on, educate me…

it’s very easy to claim that class differences do not exist,when the effects of class differences do not affect you.

It’s also *much* easier to know that the assumptions upon which your unfair treatment are based are entirely fictional. Perhaps if the differences were real then I’d be better disposed to accepting any ‘different’ treatment but because I’ll claim to be as good, bad, or indifferent as any other person then I know that any prejudicial treatment I get is on the basis of perceived and not actual differences.

Or are you saying that the basis of class prejudice is real? That ‘working class’ people really *don’t* deserve equal treatment?

uhh, hang on…

In Britain I suppose for some people it’s a “breeding” thing. Nonsense of course. […] You come from the right family/background ,or you don’t.

Nonsense of course.

That’s my freaking point! It’s nonsense, it’s crap, shit, dross, a fairytale but one that people chose to believe in, to sediment themselves, to become ossified in the cliff-face of class, to know ‘their’ place. On the basis of what? Convention, tradition and other myths and legends. And you know what? It’s much easier to fight a corrupt and unequal system which you know to be based upon a a pack of lies.

Normally I sit back and spectate at the usual working class/middle class stand-offs – furious stereotypes fuelling further mistrust and mutual loathing and self-hate but sometimes I think of the 10% that own the majority of the wealth and the 90% that hate each other and themselves on account of who ‘they’ are and who ‘we’ are and I feel like saying something.

you are lucky enough to be ignorant of it.

Well ignorance is bliss but this is just sheer bloody-mindedness on my part. Stereotypes and other ways of categorising people are just lazy thinking; maybe i’m too tight to spring for a DS and a Brain-training cart and this is the budget option for staving off alzheimers eh? Or maybe there’s far fewer in the ‘old left’ way of thinking than i thought. Maybe I should just crack a tinny/pop a cork/shoot up/light da chalice widd ma bredrin or whatever stereotyped route to oblivion my type is expected to follow and accept that it’s like that, it’s just the way it is?

Andrew, have you ever experienced class prejudice? If so, did it feel “real”, or a construct simply used to perpetuate an unequal society, and therefore of no consequence?

To save you the bother of scrolling up the page and actually reading what I said, for the fifteenth time, for the hard of reading, the effects of people’s belief in these fake categories are real even though the categories are not. Shit, have people really forgotten what false consciousness is? Thatcherism really did a number on people’s heads, huh?

Example: Man X sees man A and, because of his perception of man A’s ‘race’, he lamps him. The action is real but does that make man X’s perception of man A correct? Of course it doesn’t. Racism is not proof of ‘race’.

I’m not saying anything now which is anyway different to what I have previously said. Every post which I have posted, is completely consistent with my previous posts – go and check. And I’ll remind you that it was you who challenged me

I did, you responded with,

Classes aren’t ‘false categories’ they are real – as real as racial categories.

I strongly disagree with that but recognise that false categories create real inequalities – that is the purpose they serve, to allow the different treatment of people based on their difference. In fact, way back up the page I was saying, “Just as the effects of ‘race’ are real, the effects of ‘class’ are also real but that doesn’t make the categories real .” At the time you were banging on about the reality of race and the reality of class; it’s just up above that you’ve started talking about the effects of the categories – what I’d been doing from the off.

There you go, I checked.

In a nutshell:
You – racial and class differences are real but it is wrong for people’s lives and expectations to be different on the basis of it.
Me – racial and class differences are false categories used to divide people in order to better rule them and perpetuate an unequal society.

MrDrayton:

races of human beings

Fail in the first sentence. One race. The human race.

pretend I said that I ‘treated’ white people differently to black people when I meet them.

But hang on…

I’m not going to stick my head in the sand pretending that class and racial differences don’t exist.

So, um, you believe in racial and class differences, don’t “stick your head in the sand,” but er, treat everyone the same even though you think they’re different. (Except the middle classes who you expect to be more racist according to your earlier post). Listen mate, you’re not coming across very clear here at all – you don’t seem to so sure about all this.

Oh, and by the way

resort to lies and pretend I said that I ‘treated’ white people differently to black people when I meet them.

I didn’t mention ‘black’ and ‘white’. You filled in those gaps pretty quickly yourself.

So let me repeat the same question with the same answer :

The experiences of a white person are often quite different to the experiences of a black person. These are not ‘false’ differences – they are very real differences. Pretending otherwise is completely unproductive.

You know that bit where I said the effects of ‘race’ are real but the categories aren’t? That’s what that means. You’re actually saying the same thing as me now.

Do you need me to elaborate ? Do you need me to talk about differences in power and wealth ? Do you need me to talk about differences in educational opportunities ? Do need me to talk about differences in material wealth ? Do need me to talk about differences in experiences of prejudices ?

And there you go again. The effects of the categories of ‘race’. You either didn’t read what I wrote or missed the point. If you missed the point fair enough.

I will continue to oppose prejudice and injustice by recognising that there are real problems, caused by real differences.

There are real problems, caused by false differences. Basic Marx. Fight the real problems but if you fetishize ideological constructs as real you maintain the reality of their effects. If you do want to do away with their effects then believing the reality of the categories to be concrete is counterproductive. If you want to keep the effects but appear to fight them then carry on as you are.

it does make me chortle when the privaleged, white, and middleaged, rear up wide eyed and winnying, tapping their keyboards with their high horse hooves, in protest of even the thought that races are in anyway different to each other.

People are different, this is obvious, it doesnt have to be negative does it?

stating the obvious doesnt make you hitler does it?

I’m please you’re having a little a chortle to yourself. You carry on chortling in your world of ‘Negroes’, ‘Caucasians’, ‘Mongoloids,’ and so on. If you ever step out of that way of thinking you’ve got a whole other century’s worth of thought to get to today. Good luck.

And until we live in a non-racial, classless world, I’m not going to stick my head in the sand pretending that class and racial differences don’t exist.

Fair enough. I’ll carrying on treating everyone I meet in the same way. You carry on treating them according to class and racial differences based, presumably, on what ‘race’ or ‘class’ they belong to. That’s your lookout. We live in a nominal democracy and like a lilly-livered liberal (which I’m not) I’ll defend your right to be prejudiced in your treatment of people even though I find your pre-judgement to be a load of bollocks.

I did not at anytime mention ‘biological classes’ as you put it – you did that.

You keep talking about how real they are and, if you’re saying I’m wrong to say that they only exist in discourse, in talk, then how else can they be ‘real’ other than in innate qualities that people have? Like I said, the effects of people believing in these categories cause massive injustice and inequality and as long as people carry on in that belief and act according to it then that injustice and inequality will continue.

Classes aren’t ‘false categories’ they are real – as real as racial categories.

So, um, racial differences are real are they? That puts you squarely in the BNP camp which is somewhere I doubt you’d want to be; ‘race’ is an invention of 19th century pseudo sciences with roots in physiognomy and was solidified as a set of categories in works such as John Beddoe’s (1862) The Races of Man (with a measure of ‘nigressence’) or J. C. Nott and G. R. Gliddon’s (1868) Indigenous Races of the Earth. ‘Science’ created and categorised racial difference. The construction of racial categories *did* precede this and most contemporary commentators tend to agree that the ‘othering’ (see Edward Said, Orientalism) of Sub-Saharan peoples coincided with and was used to legitimise Europe’s widescale early modern adoption of slavery. Nonetheless it was during the 19th century that scientific ‘proof’ consolidated ‘race’ as a viable category. It still persists, particularly in psychology: articles published in the last couple of years by Linda Gottfredson, J. Philippe Rushton and Arthur Jenson use racial genetic difference as an explanation of intelligence differences between populations. They are, of course, marginal figures and their findings rejected but it is wrong to suggest that ‘race’ is ‘unscientific’. Science helped to create ‘race’ and scientists persist in attempting to maintain it.

Class, equally, is a concept used by self-serving powermongers on the right and left to divide and rule people. Whether it be the Leninist dreamer who revels in the image of them leading the vanguard (because the scum can’t be trusted to lead themselves) or the Thatcherite who promulgates the idea of a ‘classless society’ (and thereby relying utterly on the discursive categories of ‘class’ to maintain their rhetoric).

Just as the effects of ‘race’ are real, the effects of ‘class’ are also real but that doesn’t make the categories real it simply shows them to be ideological. There is no innate biological ‘class’. It is not written into our DNA, it is not something we have at birth. We are taught the illusions as we grow and they become one amongst many prisonhouses for our minds. There is no freedom that will come from placing people in false categories be they ‘race’, ‘class’, ‘nation’ or whatever.

Thanks for pointing out to me that we in fact live in a classless society

Um, that’s not what was being pointed out. What was being pointed out was that false categories which are treated as natural, biological traits are effective at dividing people and breeding hatred. Class, like race, is one of them and one used to divide people and breed hatred and mistrust. That’s not the same as saying we live in a classless society.

Although in my experience working-class people are hugely more tolerant of other people’s race, class, and religion, than many middle-class people are.

Yeah, bloody intolerant middle class – they’re the ones to blame, the intolerant ****. I really hate their intolerance.

FFS.

How did CRASS so eloquently put it? “Middle class, working class, it’s all a load of shit.”

Proper J-Rock

It really is a joke to compare the UK today with 1920s Germany; I can’t believe anyone is even considering that line of thought. An ‘economic downturn’ is *not* comparable to the freefalling economy of 1920s Germany; where are the political militias whose streetfights are nearly ripping the country apart? Where is the humiliating military defeat to our near neighbours which has seen the ceding of ‘our’ territory? It is an alarmist but empty comparison.

What’s more worrying is that the publicity over this minor and, largely, laughable excuse for a political party is causing people to think that they are a threat and that the very real threat from their chums on the Right will be ignored and we’ll see greedheads grabbing a few extra quid in their pay packet through lower taxes whilst confusedly watching the tory jackals dismember the health service and education system. (And let’s not forget that the tories in Europe are currently seeking links with the Polish far-right Law and Justice Party or that Westminster tories have links with far-right ‘pressure group’/cabal Swinton Circle (a re-branded Monday club)).

I’ll echo what rightplacerighttime said: it sounds as if you’re filling a hole in your life that cycling once occupied. Doing some voluntary work will fill that time whilst making a difference to the lives of others who could do with a hand. If you have a local Shelter of other homeless charity I’d give them a bell and see if they need anyone.

[pops thread cherry]

…so, anything in the post this morning?

Heheheh. Very good 🙂 Those are good and you see…? Things won’t be that bad!

No matter how bad your writing is there’ll always be someone worse.

It’s also worth persevering with even the worst writing for the potential comedy value. Case in point: the exam script answering a question on, ‘the end of history,’ which used Doctor Who as a metaphor until the student forgot the metaphorical content and simply relayed a list of Doctor Who’s many adventures. Sadly not for me but for a colleague who was kind enough to share.

Damn. Can’t go. At least the Hora lynching might provide some entertainment.

‘Who Should Be Trusted?’ – Marble Sheep. **** awesome modern Japanese psych, great way to start the day.

Bug (Golem) – Nadja

and now it’s Memory Leak – Nadja

It’s heartening to know my kids won’t have much competition for the decent jobs

😉 of course

To be honest, I don’t know why people don’t just get their stupid, useless, analogue eyeballs scooped out and have screens implanted in the holes instead. Why waste time away from the screen?[/url] duh.

This is mine. Similar hair to yours. Zero maintenance. Don’t call me a surfer type tho’ ‘cos after *that* guinness advert i’d hate to be guilty by association.

I’ve just read this thread for the first time. I’m not an IT bod but know how *some* interweb things work and I was increasingly gobsmacked as the thread progressed. I was also increasingly appalled by the HR/IT/Management at your place of your work – I take Samuri’s point above but for them not to see the various calls that mlehworld made and not work out what happened from there: idiocy – and as for the management’s “You’ve had your chance” attitude at the meeting called to allow them to collect ‘extra information’. Pathetic, duplicitous, thick-headed gets.

Hats off to all that helped and onwards and upwards zed 🙂

Patchouli.

Alliteration be damned.

Girls:
Persephone
Lilith
Esther
Demeter

Boys:
Fraser
Lawrence
Oscar
Dionysius

(to be treated as pairs: eg. Persephone and Fraser)

Sortd.

Elite. The best game there ever was (rosy-tint retroglasses)

I seem to remember a game called Apocalypse that was spread over two tapes. I played it once and loved it. And then the tapes died.

Philosopher’s Quest? Did that exist? (and Zork, was that real?) Also I seem to remember a JCB Digger game called JCB Digger or something similar. Hunchback or Quasimodo? (Ocean Games?)

God, my memory is ****.

I think it’s delightful and reminds us of the influence and Eastward spread of Irish culture (well, North of the mountains anyway; it’s all nomadic Englanders southwards isn’t it?)

😉

End of the road for the current Arsenal and Chelsea squads.

It’s not just the Arsenal squad.

’92 i *think*. Might have been ’91. I’d been doing a fair bit of acid for a few years back then so it’s all a bit hazy. Which is probably why my old man gave me his discarded Al Carter Professional (some things i *do* remember heh) in the hope it might help me get my shit together. Which, of course, it did 🙂

Must admit I lost interest after Evol but, for all those that didn’t: an admittedly great video.

Well that’s you and my old man who’ll be smiling tonight 🙂 Well done the blues.

Big rhododendrons would, mostly, fit your bill except they tend to grow at an average rate.

It’s pronounced beaut

You say, “Toemayto,” I say Yankee imperialist running dog.

.. I thought you meant the guy out of The Wipers. That was me being wrong.

Hmm, I don’t believe anyone cannot appreciate Bladerunner or Apocalypse Nowat even just a cinematic level; I mean, I find Mean Streets a dull, dull, dull narrative but as cinema it is superb.

Over-rated to the point of my disbelief? The complete works of Mr Guy Ritchie, Sin City, Slumdog millionaire (Salman Rushdie’s appraisal: “Poverty Tourism” hit the mark), all Star Wars sequels, Marx Brothers films… I’ll stop there, I need to go to the chippy.

No guts, no glory. Fantastic 🙂

Hmm, the more I think about it the more books occur. Two music biographies: Lost in the Woods (Syd Barrett) and Eye Mind (Roky Erickson).