Wowser, your paying a lot for negligible difference.

@13thfloormonk

No, the primary function is not to release windup. However, is not necessary to be brutal.
On both points see this link

Wheel Building Tip No. 4 – How to Pre-stress Your Wheel

How about Race in the rear drive side, d-lights on the rest.

@mudmonster Do they reach with a standard nipple but not the squorx? You could use the spokes and nipples you have to measure the erd, then you can eliminate one potential issue and have some more confidence ordering what you need.

https://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-corner/measuring-effective-rim-diameter

Didn’t the lugs also have reinforcing on the outside, maybe to reduce flex if the glue joint.

Yes, where is the evidence that the cutting and spoke threading had anything to do with it? Did they fail at the threads?

Spoke threads are rolled rather than cut and shouldn’t significantly weaken the spoke, especially if well engaged in the nipple ;)

I think the original anecdote was that the Polish repairer told him they’d been overtightened and rebuilt it ‘looser’. That seems spurious or lost in translation and so on various forums people have advanced other theories, including a bad spoke angle at the rim which also leads to failures at the threaded end. Maybe a combination of the two issues, angles and some defect in the threading.

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=39900

Sapim HM washers are like that and their polyax nipples also help with angles.

You can also alter the hole drilling angle with a drill bit by hand if there are no eyelets.

@NewRetroTom

Although doing this [adding threads] will significantly weaken the spoke.

Mark Beaumont got some custom short spokes made for a rohloff hubbed wheel for his first round the world trip and they all started snapping before he was out of Europe.

You say that like it’s fact. There are several theories and many discussions about his spoke failures and the root cause

The picture is from Sheldon Brown’s site, taken I think from DT Swiss originally (assuming from the file name). Also shown in Roger Musson’s book I believe.

You shouldn’t be seeing it in your own wheels unless you have a habit of leaving the spokes significantly short, 1.5-2mm error from ideal. Three threads engaged is an old engineering rule of thumb for fasteners, maybe you can get away with less if there is some suport of the nipple neck.

Anyway, check the rim ERD yourself, aim to be within 1mm out, and if you do find the spokes are well short of the slot then weigh up the risk yourself versus buying a few new spokes.

If the spoke end does not reach three or more threads into the nipple head, as per the picture from DT Swiss, then you have a problem because the nipple is at risk of cracking. I’ve already said that a millimetre short (middle picture) is ok so I’d s say that’s a straw man. It is however the minimum acceptable engagement, so it would be foolish to aim for

If you cannot reach full tension because you have run out of thread you obviously have a different problem.

My point is that when they’re too short the problem is potentially hidden. You may appear to have a solid wheel and only find out the issue when some nipple heads crack off. Whereas if they’re too long you find out in the comfort of your workshop :) you could even add some threads if you have the tool.

I’ve explained why I err on the long side, do whatever you like with your own wheels.

FEA wouldn’t be that interesting in this case I think. You don’t need a hypothetical when the real thing exists. We have plenty of real world failures that demonstrate the issue. The stress riser at the base of the nipple head is well known.

Spokes finish short of the head, head flexes where it enters the rim and cracks off. Simple. Takes longer with brass than alu nipples.

Longer nipples do not in themselves good this problem because the spoke still doesn’t reach any further into the rim

Often we are faced with a 2mm range between available lengths. The vast majority of the time I would just choose the smaller difference, especially if I am confident about the rim and hub measurements.

In contrast to the previous posters though, I prefer to err on the long side. That’s because when the spoke threads don’t reach into the head of the nipple there is a risk of the head cracking off. Also, you can always add a nipple washer to adjust if they are so long that you cannot achieve full tension. Typically you can screw a nipple on 3mm past the bottom of the slot so you have a good margin for error before you start crunching the threads.

There’s an awful lot of speculation and worrying about metallic anti-seize being a cause of galvanic corrosion. Rocol say it can happen though and show examples https://www.rocol.com/knowledge-centre/rocol_expert/anti-seize-and-corrosion-protection

I happen to have no copper stuff myself currently, using loctite aluminium and non-metallic permatex stuff. Never had a problem getting bolts out where other people had used copper paste though, and bless them for doing so.

Grease what moves, use antiseize or threadlock for threaded fasteners. Grip paste is mainly for carbon.

Antiseize for any fastener that might get stuck and is unlikely to move or sees primarily tightening forces, e.g BB and pedal threads, and for things that are adjusted relatively frequently. Lock what’ll hurt you or cause a lot of hassle if it slips, and which sees vibration or loosening forces. Thread locker normally has some antiseize qualities.

For BB I would use antiseize. For rotor bolts thread locker. My cassette lockring gets antiseize although that’s debatable.

Sapim d-light are an in between option.

Entirely missing the point there. Chewing does not release cations into solution.

Don’t think so Matey boy. Pretty sure increasing the surface area increases the speed stuff dissolves, not to mention the action of saliva

Do you chew when you eat?

Yep, very similar concept. You’re setting the spoke line at each end to reduce fatigue. It can normally be achieved by a hand squeeze, squeezing a single pair of spokes on the same side together just below the nipples.

@joebristol Was the concept of setting the spoke line at the nipple clear enough to you that you were able to do it during your build? It is achieved most easily when the wheel is laced and at low tension. I think given the failures you described having it would be a very good idea.

Figure 33 on page 73 from the third edition of the Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt shows it very clearly. If the nipple is not able to articulate enough in the rim to point directly at the corresponding hub hole he suggests making the spoke bend just below the nipple so that it then follows a straight line to the hub rather than being in a gentle curve. If left in a curve it will flex on every rotation and eventually fail due to fatigue, normally failing just below the nipple…

You could also buy a proper 5.5mm nipple driver tool of course, they’re still available. Obviously with the screwdriver type drivers you can’t get as high torque as you could with a socket and bar but the t-handle type might work e.g. icetoolz. A socket is cheaper but there’s a chance it won’t fit unless it is slim and deep. Maybe the seller could tell you that the outside diameter is.

You probably need a 5.5mm socket with thin walls to drive the nipple.

Soak with plenty of plus gas or similar.

Can’t you use a homemade spoke nipple driver to load them in and start then on the threads

It depends if you take them out and rebuild or if you swap them over without taking them out of the hub.

Oh, sorry, I thought you’d rebuilt it yourself.

Applying pressure to pairs of spokes is a good means of stress relief, although I squeeze by hand rather than stand on it.

The reason I asked about setting the path is because your last breakage was below the nipple. Jobst Brandt recommends setting the path here at low tension by squeezing one pair on the same side towards each other so they take a set and then run straight rather than curving which can lead to fatigue and breaking below the nipple or at least on that upper portion.

How do you stress relieve your wheels?

Do you set the spoke path at the nipple?

Normally use Kay’s or boltbase for general metric stuff. Occasionally have to buy direct from Chinese sellers for stainless track nuts and pedal washers.

I’d be interested in buying from a local place if I could find one. Where’s there a fastener place in Cambridge? And bearings too for that matter.

@mcj78 what a crock of nonsense.

I like the little onguard Pitbull mini d-locks. About £20 quid, easy to stash in a bag or large pocket and not trivial to cut through unless you have a battery angle grinder.

Probably easiest to slacken them all off to some observable point, either threads just showing below the nipple or, if you can remove the rim tape, flush with the bottom of the nipple slot.

The alternative is to true and try to bring all the loose spokes up to reasonable tension. That is in any pair you would tighten the looser spoke until it is starting to pull against its opposite. If both of a pair are loose, tighten both until in the ballpark of the rest.

A clothes peg on the stay or bridge makes an excellent truing indicator. Flip the wheel to check dish.

A helpful thing you can do is measure the ERD yourself to confirm it. Possibly also make sure the hub measurements look about right. You could try a second spoke calculator to double check.

It’s not about anyone being wrong, just pointing out that it’s more complicated. There are perfectly good reasons for securing nipples in one way or another other than laziness. To sum it up that way is reductive. This tendency to reduce things to I’m right and your wrong is a problem.

That’s why there are locking nipples and specific compounds that are initially lubricating and then set to lock it.

Nice selective quoting btw,

…but I wouldn’t hesitate to add a wicking threadlock if I had tension loss on the non drive side.

You’ve left out an obvious option, flog and build up the rims on some new or lightly used hubs.

Deformation of the outer race as it is distorted or squeezed in the hub. A little squeezing is ok, is a press fit after all, distortion not so good. I guess maybe the pressure mean the balls run on a slightly different line or that they are running on the same line with less pressure.

Try velosolo’s solid axle if you need a good quality replacement.

https://www.velosolo.co.uk/shophub.html

threadlocked nipples (ooof) are lazy.

The tension difference on some highly dished wheels means threadlock can be required/ very helpful on the lower tension side to prevent loosening during use.

Further, the low strength threadlock compounds you’d typically use on a wheel should also offer some protection against the nipple seizing through corrosion. I’d far rather true a wheel that has threadlock than one that had nothing and has corroded.

If thread locking has no benefit why do DT Swiss and Sapim make locking nipples? Why have generations of builders used linseed oil and why do various companies now make spoke lubricating compounds that then set, locking the nipple in place?

I use anti-seize on my own wheels but I wouldn’t hesitate to add a wicking threadlock if I had tension loss on the non drive side.

Wheel Building Tip No. 2 – Lubricating Nipples

I’m also using an SA sprocket, a 1/8 in my case. You can get sprockets that are dished which helps to get the right chainline, so you have +- a couple of mm if you need it.

As ajantom says, why can’t you use a wider chain? On a cassette or a multiring crankset the chain must be narrow enough to avoid hitting the next sprocket or ring but this is not the case on a single chainring. I don’t see why you couldn’t run any wider chain on it.

If it’s long enough and the same thread pitch then it’s fine. Often a hollow axle will be shorter because it’s designed for a quick release rather than nuts

Do the spokes bend sharply at the nipple or curved gradually?

Brant Brant Brant, please copy a Surly cross check but at £250 :)

No, you should change when you’ve weighed up the arguments for and against change and are convinced.

I’ve already repeated the arguments for lacing the disc side that way above, which to be honest are not mine, they are from Shimano, Sapim, Magura, DT Swiss, Leonard Zinn, Gerd Schraner and others, collated at Peter Verdone’s page.

Very simply it is that when torque is transmitted from hub to rim these spokes should be in tension and supported by the flange. The same logic applies to the driving forces on the other side of a rear, although since braking forces are higher than drive forces they’re more important.

On the other side of the argument you have Jobst Brandt and Ric Hjertberg suggesting that neither drive nor braking forces are significant overall, so you can do it whichever way you like, and the caliper clearance idea is an argument for staying symmetric per Chris King.

I guess I’m coming round to the arguable either way position. Personally, I find it easy to lace either way now, and I think there’s more merit to the arguments for asymmetric and know that it’s a minor issue in building a strong wheel.