Actually I reckon that the people who love her to bits are a bit into dominatrices and have a desire for spanking.

Dunno why. It has always been an image that stuck in my head when people eulogise her. “Ooh PM I’ve been a very naughty boy…” 😀

As for that film – it is too early to make it. From what I hear it portrays her in a very positive light (most probably to get the US dollars flowing in). A film like this is best made about 20 years after her death so both positive and negative views have settled somewhat and a more rounded view can be seen.

All of which existed in 1978 and at most other times before and since. It was not some sort of utopia before 1979. Rose tinted 20/20 rear view vision does not suit you.

The same could be said of you too, TooTall, regarding Mrs T’s time…

EDIT: oops, pasted wrong bit! sorry!

See what I mean? It’s always ‘Her’ and ‘She did’. Not the conservatives or her government, but always just her.

Why is that?

Hi Emsz

I think you’ll find similar if you think about Tony Blair too. They are very polarising people. Perhaps another emsz in twenty years will ask the same question of him.

So, ultimately, it’s over and I won.

For negative values of ‘won’.

Although they appear to be traditionally figures of fun, and sent to allow us to take the piss, all the ‘doorstep godbotherers’ are actually people too, with feelings, with hopes, desires, preferences, likes and dislikes.

Agreed, bearing in mind: so do I. I have “feelings, with hopes, desires, preferences, likes and dislikes” and have absolutely no problem with them living their lives and being happy. They seem to have a problem with others like me though. 😕

I’d rather they not be upset. Easy done: don’t come and knock on my door with your prejudices. Come and have a chat and not blanche when I ask if my husband can join in. 😀

Hi Emsz

Not sure on the lady front as I think the guy stuff seems to be more frowned upon. Obviously religion is male oriented.

The answer I got was very political, I am afraid. I got the feeling that Phil’s pager had gone off to keep on message. I am obviously damned due to loving someone. I hope I can take some marshmallows and potatoes in case I get peckish.

Perhaps you will be ok. Go on, take a chance! I will stock up on taters for you and your gf just in case.

Don’t you fall foul of the Commandments there, Adam, for coveting thy neighbour’s ass? (-:

Depends on how cute it is. Current infatuations include Ryan Reynolds as he’s as fit as a very fit thing in Green Lantern and Ben Browder 😛 Someone like Bernard Manning, (if he were alive I hasten to add) would not be flavour of the month.

Ah, the old ‘gay best friend’ trick eh?

Dagnabit, caught again! 😀

Uh-oh. Better get a chastity belt or something. Or a mask of CallMeDave; that’ll stop things stone dead. 😀

But seriously, I wish religious people would stop judging me. They wonder why I get annoyed when they’re basically telling me (in such a nice way note, Elf) that I am evil and will burn forever for loving someone. And they are knocking on *my* door! In my book that makes them very nasty people indeed, regardless of whether they have faux ‘good intentions’.

Surely there is absolutely nothing wrong with two people of the same sex who love each other? Wasn’t the whole point of that Jesus chap about love and not hate? I bet if he turned up he would live in some form of lesbian commune or something and not in a nice middle-class family. 😀

This isn’t a polite disagreement – people have had to lose their lives over stuff like this, just so people like me can be treated as a human being, and usually the ones who want to hurt me are religious.

Oi, PhilAmon: what’s this sinning thing then?

Am I allowed to do rumpy-pumpy or not! 🙂

I’ve got to let MrAdamW know whether its off the menu! 😀

lol its not personal Adam :p if I exchanged ‘sinned’ with ‘done wrong’ would you accept it then? because its the same thing.

“done wrong” yep, but I am under the illusion that “sinning” is “doing something against god” (of whatever flavour you have).

Quick wikipediaing:

In religion, sin (also called peccancy) is the violation or deviation of an eternal divine law or standard. The term sin may also refer to the state of having committed such a violation. Christians believe the moral code of conduct is decreed by God (cf Epistle to the Romans chapter 7: ‘the law code itself is God’s good and common sense’ (verse 8 The Message (Bible)).

Now confused. I’m gay and I *do* know that Christians get knickers firmly entwisted about that and consider rumpy-pumpy to be sinning. I don’t. I’m not doing wrong. Or if I am I’ll need a quick trip to A&E. 😀

We are born with a sinful nature

I’m not.

If I went to Tesco and stole a Twix I couldn’t blame Adam, I’d have to take responsibility for my own actions.

Grr! 👿 Go-on, it’s pick on me day, isn’t it?! 😀

I have been accused of judging others by saying we are all sinners, but can anyone here honestly say they have gone their whole life without ever sinning?

Depends what you mean on sinning. If you mean ‘did someone wrong’ then of course. If you mean ‘did something god didn’t like’ then of course not, silly.

as Jesus said “let he who has no sin cast the first stone” he said that because people were judging others without looking inside themselves.

If you mean the latter definition (against god) then please pass me that pebble. After all, since I’m being blamed for everything around here I may as well get hung for a sheep than a lamb!

We have to accept that we have all sinned.

I don’t.

Seriously, you’re as bad as them. Just because he’s gay, that doesn’t mean it’s all AdamW’s fault.

Everything is Adam Werritys fault

😯 Erm, before I get inundated, this AdamW’s surname is WAINWRIGHT. And NOT WERRITY!

But I have been considered by some Christians to be the servant of the devil so I guess you could be half-right. 😀

Yeah, and all those mad capitalists. Using. The. NHS. Good grief! Next thing they’ll be using public roads and not private ones. Is there no end to this madness!

I think anyone who wants to spend their own time basically being nice to people should be applauded, not mocked

-1

They knock on your door. You do not ask for them to do so.

Or would me going door to door extolling the pleasures of mansex be considered being ‘nice to people’. They may consider they are doing their gods’ work but I consider it rude.

I’m always polite but they are not “being nice to people”.

Yes. I work in the private sector.

God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens
Cosmos by Carl Sagan
The Mammoth Book of new Sherlock Holmes Adventures
Bad Blood by Jeremy Whittle

This is what having a Kindle and a Nespresso machine does for you!

I reckon as time goes on that religions will slowly mythologise most of their holy books and be left with just the “Be excellent to each other*” bit, jettisoning the rest.

* And party on, dude!

Can you change religions like you can change bikes?

Fortunately in the UK yes, though I guess your old religious buddies of a different flavour won’t think too kindly of you.

In other countries it may involve being murdered, unfortunately. (link: Christian pastor faces death penalty for apostasy.[/url] )

Are we discounting aliens?

Only if they have a discount card. Otherwise it’s full price. 😀

BTW ta for the Hitchens vid. It reminded me to check whether his books are now on Kindle, and they are so just picked up “God Is Not Great” for about £4! 😆

Not really the ultimate though, is it when you know you’ll be back after the weekend!

I would have thought that seeing people healed and lives transformed would be a positive thing? Isn’t this the gist of what others are suggesting but via the MTFU process

Sorry I don’t believe you on this. Double blind trials have been done on prayer and it was shown to be ineffective. Like homeopathy and all that stuff.

Religion doesn’t put me off so much a I would feel a right numpty having to hold things as true when I see no evidence for them. Organised religion of any type is a control system with heirarchies of priests etc. So that is right out for a start.

But I am a true skeptic. Show me evidence and I will change my mind.

I still marvel at the sheer improbibility of our exisitence, the real story – the one backed by evidence – of our origin is just so much more miraculous.

This. And that we are learning more as time goes on. An exciting time to be alive!

Essentially, the Kingdom the earth lives in is ruled by the Devil, which offers insight into why evil exists and why ‘bad’ stuff happens. It is the devil’s purpose to destroy and separate God’s creation.

I have always thought that the Abrahamic religions consisted of two gods: the “good” one (Yahweh or whatever his name is) and the Devil. I don’t see many references to the devil in the bible. I reckon it is just dogma, control mechanism for the masses.

I don’t have DNA evidence but then neither do atheists and it could therefore be argued that atheism is as much of a matter of faith a theism.

This would only be considered true if a person of religion X had a positive “faith” that religions not-X were false. It would mean that everyone would have a theoretical infinite number of religions.

I am atheist/agnostic. I don’t have any gods. The Christian/Islamic/abrahamic gods are on a par with Zeus and Apollo. I assure you I don’t a religion based on not-Zeus!

I agree and this position answers the earlier query about a belief in Jesus as the basis for a belief in God. CS Lewis made the same point essentially which was that Jesus was either the Son of God, deluded or something worse. He couldn’t have been ‘just a good bloke’. It is through my exploration of Jesus, his teachings, the social context of his teachings and through me living out the Christian faith that has led me to an evidence-based belief in a creator God – I certainly don’t believe because I was told to, I have questioned myself and my position and do welcome discussion and debate.

This is known as the lord/liar/lunatic straw man argument. There are lots of links on the interweb about it.

Nigella’s apple and cranberry chutney is fab. Let me know if you want the recipe. I make it this time every year.

But more importantly: what tyres for religion?

Just like to point out at this juncture that I am following this interesting and reasonably good natured thread in the bath, in the nuddy. If anyone makes unpleasant comments, I can ridicule them by using my willy as a puppet…

Pictures or it didn’t happen. 😆

Easter was eostre, no? Or something like that. To do with doing naughty things, rebirth.

The other Christian holidays – nope, can’t think of any I celebrate. Pancake day seems to pass me by. I’ve dumped the old funny-named (whitsun? other stuff like that?) days to the bin.

Oh, I do an advent calendar because it means I can eat chocolate, if that helps.

I was once told by a monk – a gay one at that – that many theologians think that Jesus (if he existed) was born around April. Would have been a bit of a sod having to celebrate a birthday then a few days/weeks/month later celebrate his death.

This is not particular to theology by the way – your argument wouldn’t doesn’t stand discipline in any form of rational inquiry. If you don’t believe me, go and have a look at the Credit and Qualifications Framework for any discipline in Higher Education.

Good try. The basic premise is the existence of god/s, not their properties. Unless the first can be agreed then all else that comes after it is pure conjecture and flummery.

Or are you also a believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster*? By your argument you couldn’t possibly say anything unless you have studied him and wear the pirate outfit?

PS Attempting an insult based on uni is, arm, interesting. Again, good try. Nil point.

* May you be touched by his noodle appendage.

Again, examples please.

Elf, as a gay bloke I have had a lifetime of religious nutters (including my own family) telling me I was going to boil in hell etc. A quick google about ex-gay ministries and all that sort of stuff will give you loads of examples.

it stopped when I shouted extremely loudly at my mother to eff right off and to keep her beliefs to herself. She still constantly tells me (a 45-year old!) that one day I’ll find Jesus and god. Its like banging your head against a brick wall, trying to stop her telling me what I do/will believe! 🙄

Good illustration of a man who demonstrates he knows sod all about theology. I find that’s one of the main problems with these discussions – people are invited to argue in defence of a mangled cliche of orthodox Christian belief, a process that would first require considerable investment of time explaining what we do believe, then continuing with the debate. Given the hostile environment in which that would be taking place, it’s not really surprising that most folks who could, don’t bother.

I don’t have to go to the best tailors in Italy and France to learn all about the cut of cloth, the use of needle and the properties of all dress types to be able to say : “The emperor wears no clothes.”

Usually though, people of religion don’t ever say what they believe as if you define something then you can be questioned upon it.

Saying that, I say: let everyone believe whatever they like, but keep religion a personal matter and have a hulking great wall between religion and state.

But for your Dawkins etc to say, Prove to me there is a God, is school boy stuff. Does he expect a picture of a bearded man sitting on a cloud? Presumably not, I haven’t read his book, so what does Dawkins want?

So why should Dawkins/anyone else (and he’s not ‘my’ Dawkins – that is usually used as a way to group people you don’t like together in order to bash them) believe in your god and not one of the thousands of others? Classic school-boy stuff that: “believe because I tell you to”!

I use me bike mainly. But to play devil’s advocate I do see people around here still driving short distances to get to the local shops for odds and sods or the takeaway. Once I start to see fewer journeys and people walking/biking more then it is obviously still too cheap.

‘There’s is no God. Do you hear me? There is no God! NO GOD I TELL YOU! LISTEN TO ME I NEED ATTENTION! Please listen to me….’

Sorry Elf, I think you’re a top bloke but, as an agnostic/atheist all I hear is people of any religion saying the above (not saying you have a religion etc., mind). The latest I hear is ‘Militant Atheists’, or ‘shrill’ describing people like Dawkins. I have read ‘the God Delusion’ and there is nothing shrill or angry inside it. If someone could point out a passage or something that shows it then I’ll most probably agree with you.

The term ‘militant atheist’ is usually used to stop people from daring to question another person’s beliefs. Attack someone before they can ask an intelligent question. While I’d say ‘fair do’, about people’s belief it starts impinging on my own life and then I get a bit annoyed.

To be honest I do get angry at what people do in the name of religion (which is another silly argument) such as murder of LGBT people incited by nutters in the US’s evangelical groups, trying to dumb down science with creationist crap in both christian and muslim groups and many many more.

If people want to believe in a god/invisible pink unicorn/flying spaghetti monster then fine, I’m glad for you. But don’t try to tell me how to live my life.

Your pictures are pretty but they can’t hold a candle to crystal structures (sez this chemist). 😀

34 mile round trip on a Cotic roadrat, running single speed. Though currently thinking about adding a *koff* road bike *koff* to the stable, possibly a Genesis Equilibrium.

Absolute utter pants for me. I hate them with a vengeance.

Went to buy a new trek fuel ex9/2010. they were the only ones around with stock. Phoned up and was answered by someone who must have gone off to bake a cake while he looked up the bike on his computer. In the end I tapped into the Evans website and told him the part number.

Went to test it:

“Come in early on Saturday as we’ll have customers.” Yes, me! The bike cost me two and a half grand, isn’t that good enough for me to be considered a customer?

I walk in and get insulted as I walk in. “What the **** are you doing here?” I look around to see if there was anyone behind me. Nope. “Oh, aren’t you the local Trek dealer man?” “No, I’m a customer.” “Oh.”

It got a little better but they did their utmost to part me from my cash as quickly as possible with as little help as possible.

Am now looking for a road bike but I will never shop there ever again. I’ll pay a little more and go to the LBS for that. Even if they were next door with naked dancing people showing off the bikes I wouldn’t. (But I may look through the window though…. 😆 )