Why are people so blinkered politically?

There is enough money in the world – sufficient to ensure a good quality of life for all.

What is the real justification for not ensuring that we maximise the well-being of most humans?

We are rapidly moving to our next seismic industrial revolution, that will automate a huge proportion of work.

How will we ensure that in a low-human labour economy, that the majority of our global population will have sufficient resources?

It seems to me that market-driven, capitalism cannot answer these questions yet – if at all. So why do we continue to pursue the system…?

Because it seems to me that we are only heading for a terrifying and brutal ‘survival of the fittest’ where fittest means that you have a huge amount of assets already. I can’t see in a world of greater automation and mechanisation the need for anything other than an ‘elite’.

I don’t think political parties help in this and the (UK) electoral system means you need to vote with who is most likely to win.
Also, most people aren’t actually that ‘political’. It’s easier just to vote one way, then go about your business.
Things aren’t really that bad in the developed world (clean water/shelter/food), so changes are small and happen over a long time, giving rise to a ‘what’s the point’ mentality.

Plus with PR you only ever get massive compromises, so no party gets to implement their policies as intended.

Something that would be welcome in these troubled times, uncontrolled exerciser of political power is a very bad thing. Politics should be about consensus not “we won get over it”. If the politician doesn’t gain the losers’ (for want of a better word) ‘buy in’ things will not improve. I have voted for most major parties in elections. After living in S. Wales in the late 80’s never again for Tories. My vote nowadays is most likely to be Green as we need to get a grip on climate change.

Pain and fear….

As someone born and bred in the North East and started work in Heavy Engineering in 1979 i cannot ever vote Tory – they have never changed their spots as the current mob demonstrate.

My political views are built on pain (witnessed and experienced) many Traditional Torys (Home Counties folk) views are built on fear of Unions, Poor people, immigrants and loss of control and ultimately the significant benefits they hold.

The great con has been Thatcher,Blair and Bojos ability to convince piss poor people that they actually hold or will get all those middle class benefits.

I believe we have currently the worst educated (in the broadest terms) working class (in the broadest sense) since the Industrial revolution.

The stress test is underway and will get tougher next year, i think its a “boiling a frog” process. There will be no revolution.

I used to think that this current world would start to slowly rotate back to a more balanced view, but i doubt this, my own four kids (all well educated and employed) have no political views, this is my fault as they have been raised in a relatively comfortable middle class home and they often cannot understand why i get so fired up over “stuff”

I have given up and withdrawn from much of this as i have concluded that it will not change in my lifetime.

I vote for the Santa Cruz marketing department. If they manage to sell their whole cache of Alu Chameleons at RRP they should be given the country to run for a few weeks…. Bet they could have IPO’d BHS in the US for $50bn…

This is my favourite piece of writing on this subject, and I revisit many times.

Grey Thinking:

…We are forced to take tests with definite answers — A, B, C, or D? How well we do at these determines, to an extent, our position in life… a major symptom of this style of learning, combined with our natural proclivity to land on easily digestible answers, is that we start thinking in rigid categories: War is good. War is bad. Capitalism is good. Capitalism is bad. America is Socialist. America is a Free Market System. We must support our troops. College is useless. College is indispensable…These slogans become substitutes for actual understanding, and it’s not as benign as it seems.

It takes a substantial deprogramming to realize that life is all grey, that all reality lies on a continuum.

Not being an unemployed Northerner I’ll never vote labour. Right wing through and through. Unfortunately there isn’t a right wing party I can vote for currently.
Edit this forum is shit when not using a block ad browser. Endless Cookie popups and constant ads.

It’s never just one thing though, Kinnock didn’t have widespread support from the press barons, Labour still smelt of The militants etc. It’s always a multitude of things.

Sure, but the programme was revisionist to say the least. I doubt any floating voter saw Kinnock’s “well alright” moment and thought he was their guy.

Unfortunately there isn’t a right wing party I can vote for currently.

You say currently…..I am intrigued to know when was the last time there was a right-wing party which you felt you could vote for?

Sure, but the programme was revisionist to say the least. I doubt any floating voter saw Kinnock’s “well alright” moment and thought he was their guy.

I think the view was the swing had already happened, but frankly I am a bit skeptical of anyone who believes they understand how that election played out. One of the great advantages of Twitter is that it exposes the number of people who have followed the Emperor in his unfortunate garment choice,

Not being an unemployed Northerner I’ll never vote labour.

Just a little bit off…

If you’ve been brought up in a household that leans a particular way politically, why do you cling so desperately to that allegiance no matter what?

Is that even true, what are you basing it on?

My dad voted Tory, I hated the Tory party from around age 11 onwards. It is not about being blinkered, it is about how you see the world and what you care about.

It is not about being blinkered, it is about how you see the world

🤔

Plus with PR you only ever get massive compromises, so no party gets to implement their policies as intended.

Not so. Look to Scotland or many other countries that use forms of PR

Not being an unemployed Northerner I’ll never vote labour.

Aren’t “Unemployed Northerners” part of the the reason BoJo has his 80 seat majority currently? Oddly enough people with a (presumed) Labour tradition, voting against their standard patterns. In fact kind of the opposite of the OP’s complaint about entrenched political loyalties…

I think more people are willing to examine their own political ideologies than the OP perhaps gives them credit for. The question is of course, what conclusions do they reach and how does it affect their voting behaviour? Being open minded doesn’t mean your vote has to change…

 Look to Scotland or many other countries that use forms of PR

Given that Scotland has an SNP majority govt since what, 2011 or thereabouts? PR doesn’t seem to be working that well.

Oh dear- the SNP got one wafer thin majority. the rest of the governments since creation have been minority governments or coalitions. currently we have a minority SNP government with a S&D type deal with the greens

Previous administration was also minority government.

PR does not mean you cannot have single party majorities ( even tho that was a part of the intention with Holyrood) it just means you need 50%+ support to get a majority

There are reasons for both widespread/community unemployment and for personal/individual unemployment. These are of course not always the same reasons. Whether or not these reasons are fully understood by those who are unemployed (or whether or not a scapegoat* is used in place) – a vote/votes may be cast from reaction/spite and/or desperation just as they may be cast for a solid belief in change or from party allegiance. In my time I’ve seen a swing to the former (voting out of reaction/spite) yet I’m also fairly certain that the electorate’s trust in party politics/politicians of all stripes is at an all time low.

*Scapegoats seem to be so easy to sell? ‘People are more likely to engage in scapegoating when they are stressed, experiencing oppression, or afraid’

Some ‘professional’ politicians (and various grifters) of course know this?

https://www.georgetownjournalofinternationalaffairs.org/online-edition/trump-and-the-international-rise-of-the-politics-of-scapegoating

I still find it astonishing that anyone could vote tory. Where is these peoples moral compass?

 even tho that was a part of the intention with Holyrood

It wasn’t “part of” anything. Labour tried to design an SNP majority out of it, it was explicit..They failed because the SNP always have a higher seat share (over the vote share) If it was proper PR the SNP wouldn’t have  the ability to “appoint” another MSP rather than a by-election happening  (as has what’s happened when Dugdale resigned)

I’m a fan of PR and AV systems but the Scottish one was pretty badly designed from the outset (it’s aim wasn’t so much PR as keeping the SNP out of control that didn’t work well).

here is enough money in the world – sufficient to ensure a good quality of life for all.

What is the real justification for not ensuring that we maximise the well-being of most humans?

Well that has been happening for the last 50 years. Billions of people dragged out of poverty, educated having access to medicines, having prospects in life to excel…it is working…This kind of thing takes decades. So on the whole the global ‘system’ is working for the majority of people. 100 years ago something like 80% of the world was in abject poverty, now its something like 10% according to the UN’s figures. So this depressing narrative of a worsening world that alot people love to push is just BS.

I still find it astonishing that anyone could vote tory. Where is these peoples moral compass?

We have morals…just different ones to yours. Who died and made you the person who decrees what is moral and what is not. Morals and principles are not universal. They are personal to individuals and vary massively from person to person. This ridiculous notion that Tories are immoral and labour is moral is just getting ridiculous especially in light of current events that actually demonstrate, if anything, the exact opposite is more the case.

If people can’t debate issues on the strength of their arguments then it is best they don’t take part rather than trying to change the debate to slagging off people involved in the debate – when people stoop to despicable tactics like that they’ve already lost the argument. We’ve had more than enough of that tactic in recent years and its done nobody any good at all.

This ridiculous notion that Tories are immoral

It’s not a ‘ridiculous notion’, it’s fact. The fact you cannot see this, proves just how blinkered you actually are. Our society is collapsing, and this is largely due to tory policy. Far right ideologies are once again on the rise, and this is largely down to tory policy; see tory immigration policies. Deprivation and inequality are massively increasing; this is due largely to tory policy. The fact is that the tory party do not have the same ‘morals and principles’ most decent people do; they are selfish, self-serving greedy ammoral ****. Take your blinkers off.

I didn’t vote Labour from 2005 to 2017, because of the Iraq + Afghanistan wars, as too many people in the Labour leadership were those who voted for it. I will not vote for a party led by those who think the murder of innocent people is in any way justified. I don’t think that’s unreasonable really.

A greater percentage of Tory MP’s voted for these wars than Labour MP’s – who did you vote for instead?

Someone who didn’t vote for or support those illegal wars.

Where is these peoples moral compass?

Where the bloody hell is the grammar in that sentence? 🙂

I still find it astonishing that anyone could vote tory.

Rather than telling them they’re immoral, if you you’re trying to persuade them to vote differently you’d be better served in trying to understand why they vote Tory now. The notion that every Tory voter is somehow a “selfish, self-serving greedy ammoral ****” is clearly nonsense. My dad’s a Tory voter, and he’s very much none of those things.

Take the time to listen, rather than lecture. “Seek first to understand, then to be understood”, as I was once taught (the only useful thing I’ve ever taken out of management courses…)

The notion that every Tory voter is somehow a “selfish, self-serving greedy ammoral ****” is clearly nonsense.

To be clear; I said:

the tory party …. are selfish, self-serving greedy ammoral ****

Take the time to listen, rather than lecture

Quite… 😉

@wobbliscott @IHN pretty much nail it IMHO.

(Shame there’s no like button.)

To be clear; I said:

Yep, fair enough, I made the link to the voters for dramatic effect.

But my point stands; understanding the reasons behind people’s actions is the best first step to persuading then to act differently. Just telling them (or assuming) that they’re idiots/racists/unemployed northerners/pick your insult isn’t going to help.

Yep, fair enough, I made the link to the voters for dramatic effect.

But that’s disingenuous and misleading. I have no problem with you challenging my argument, or quoting in context, but please don’t make out I’ve said something I haven’t.

Yep, mea culpa, apologies.

If people can’t debate issues on the strength of their arguments then it is best they don’t take part rather than trying to change the debate to slagging off people involved in the debate

Ooh, ooh, me sir, please! I know this one!

Toryism as a concept is about letting things be and interfering as little as possible. That sounds good, doesn’t it? Why would you want a government telling you what to do? Well, it sounds good, but it doesn’t work out well for everyone. Because power is unevenly distributed. Power comes from lots of things – intelligence, money, a singleminded temperament to name a few. The question is, should the powerful be allowed to exploit the less powerful? A small government enables this. Personally I don’t think the powerful should be able to exploit the less powerful, because I have compassion and I feel bad for those less fortunate. So the question is, how can you have compassion and still want a small government? I have argued with people who consider themselves passionate, and when grilled on the plight of the poor and unfortunate, the most common endpoint of the argument is something along the lines of ‘well, that’s their own fault, isn’t it?’.

Well – is it? Let’s say someone don’t work very hard and they don’t hold down jobs. 50 years ago they’d have been labelled a wastrel or idle. But maybe they actually have ADHD, a condition that we’re only becoming aware of and understanding in recent terms. So now whose fault is it?

Ah, you say, but Toryism grows the economy, and a stronger economy benefits everyone. Well, perhaps, but how does Toryism grow the economy? By allowing people to exploit each other, often. For example, it suits businesses to have their workers self-employed or on zero-hours contracts, so they grow and do well, but it doesn’t suit the workers. Often you can grow an economy by reducing worker’s (i.e. OUR) rights, but this isn’t necessarily a good thing, from a compassionate viewpoint.

I think that people are always compassionate to people they consider to be ‘us’, and callous towards ‘them’. This is fundamental human nature. The difference between people is the size of the circle they draw that includes ‘us’. There are many reasons, some entirely understandable, why people would draw a small circle, but I choose to draw the circle around the entire human race, because everyone is in need in some way or another, and it is good to help those in need. End of.

This is why it is possible to act compassionately to those around you, but still vote Tory – because those ‘others’ fall outside the circle. I do not believe voting Tory in its modern form is compatible with being compassionate, although there are some people that may not realise this.

Plus with PR you only ever get massive compromises, so no party gets to implement their policies as intended.

Said as if this is a bad thing. Negative feedback systems exist for a reason; to prevent excursions into danger territory. Which is obviously where the UK is at the moment.

Plus with PR you only ever get massive compromises, so no party gets to implement their policies as intended.

Why do some people use ‘compromise’ as a dirty word? If the majority get to do whatever they want without having to consider the minority – that’s tyranny.

Our electoral system forces disparate views into coalition with each other to make the parties and the voter base as big as possible. This is why there’s so much infighting between factions in the Tory and Labour parties; and this is also why so many voters feel disenfranchised – they don’t have a party that really represents their views. Your Tory PM might have a particular point of view, but they always end up shaping the government to their view, so you can very well end up with policies being enacted that are not supported by the majority of the population.

FPTP is a dreadful system – yes, things get done, but they are frequently not in the country’s best interests, they are not what people really want, they’re not competent, they’re short-termist or they serve only to undo whatever the ‘other side’ did. Our country is badly run and generally always has been, and this is a key reason IMO.

I do not believe voting Tory in its modern form is compatible with being compassionate,

This kind of comes back to my previous point about how you choose who to vote for. Many people (in fact, I think, the majority, although that’s just a gut instinct on my part) use the pragmatic/tactical approach; which of the parties with a chance of winning can I just about live with, dislike the least, or stand a chance of beating the party I dislike the most.

In the last general election, for many this really was a choice between a kick in the nuts and a punch in the face; the thought of voting Tory made many people feel uncomfortable for the compassion reasons you state, but the Labour party just weren’t seen as having the competence to run the country. So, a lot of people held their nose and voted Tory as they considered it the least worst of an appalling set of options.

Full disclosure – I voted LibDem, as they were the only party in my them constituency who had any chance of beating the Tories (they didn’t, no-one would in the Cotswolds), and, if I’m honest, as they were the closest party to my own political beliefs, but that was just luck.

Toryism as a concept is about letting things be and interfering as little as possible.

As a concept, maybe. The current lot of “Tories” are about as far away from that concept as it’s possible to be.

Cf. brexit.

The current lot of “Tories” are about as far away from that concept as it’s possible to be.

I think the fact that the current lot have been so regularly criticised by the old Tory ‘big beasts’ (Heseltine, Clark, Major, even May) demonstrates that they are actually very far from ‘traditional’ Conservative values.

Its crazy really, Johnson today will tell us how his plans will reverse the last few decades of dithering, neglecting to mention that the last few decades have seen the Tories in power for 29 of the last 42 years
but people will still buy it!

As a concept, maybe. The current lot of “Tories” are about as far away from that concept as it’s possible to be.

That’s why I said ‘as a concept’. The current lot are quite literally self-serving and immoral, and that’s not hyperbole.

The current lot are quite literally self-serving and immoral, and that’s not hyperbole.

*Tries to think of even-handed, “but the thing you need to remember is” response*

*Fails*

Many people (in fact, I think, the majority, although that’s just a gut instinct on my part) use the pragmatic/tactical approach; which of the parties with a chance of winning can I just about live with, dislike the least, or stand a chance of beating the party I dislike the most.

I think you give people too much credit.

The ones you hear talking about it, the ones you see posting on the Internet in places like here, the ones who are engaged regardless of on which side they fall, I don’t believe that they’re a good representation of the the greater populace. (Again, like you, this is just a gut feeling on my part).

I think the majority simply don’t care. Post this question on Facebook, then post something banal about the colour of your underpants or your third ‘@’ or something and see which of the two generates the most discussion.

In 2016, fully a quarter of eligible voters didn’t bother to turn up. Of those that did, some of the exit interviews were staggering. Some folk voted randomly; many voted on a single policy (eg, “more money to the NHS, that’s good, right?”); what almost no-one voted on despite the cries to the contrary today was “we knew what we were voting for.” No-one had a clue, myself included, we weren’t ready to make an informed decision. Why? Because by & large, we don’t care.

And that’s why we’re “blinkered politically,” we vote Labour / Tory / Green / Monster Raving Loony because we always have. It takes the effort out of it.