Who on Earth do I vote for?

In Scotland vote labour get tory is true.  Numerous examples of this.

My takeaway from here is that you should vote Tory .  Then in 5 or 10 years it will be so rough the country will be open to electing a true Labour party, the intellectual love child of Citizen Jeremy.

IO to UK 🤔

Sod this, I’m orf. It shouldn’t be so complicated; tactical voting/get them in then give them a kicking because they’re no better? Really? 40m people with a vote against an institution of what, 1400 elected/priviledged posts? How on Earth has it got to this and where are the voices to stop it? Why has it got to be like this? From a distance it looks crackers.

Take a look at the USA. That’ll really blow your mind.

My takeaway from here is that you should vote Tory .  Then in 5 or 10 years it will be so rough the country will be open to electing a true Labour party, the intellectual love child of Citizen Jeremy.

Yep, going by some in this thread anything that would let labour in power would be way worse than having the tories for another 5 years 🤣

It’s not really Labour v Tory in terms of politics. It’s a ‘high on its own supply’ version of Conservatism versus through the back door Conservatism.

Vote for whom you want, is my take – it will play out soon enough and then we can have a whole new debate.

Time frames are key.  And there’s not enough of a long term view in politics these days.

No one has said that argee.

What we have said is given Labours stated positions it will make little difference.  Jackboot in the balls or a loafer.  You still get a kick in the balls.

One of my Russian colleagues said the other day, ‘People always say things can’t get any worse.  Things can always get worse.  Until you die.  Then things can’t get any worse.’

A lot of people are running around acting like the UK will literally sink beneath the waves if the Tories win because things simply can’t get any worse.  They are wrong.  The UK can get a lot lot worse.

It has been getting steadily worse for years.  This is not a rose tinted spectacles thing.  The data all shows it pretty clearly.

People have to take the long view.  A vote for Labour will do nothing to change the current direction because Labour have said they believe this direction, that is making life worse for the majority, is the right one.  It is a vote to continue making people’s lives worse, and in 5 to 10 years a Braverman led Tory government (or a Braverman equivalent) will come into power off the back of frustration at Labour’s lack of effectivness.

Then we’ll get a chance to see that things can actually get a lot worse.

there’s not enough of a long term view in politics these days.

This.

We moan about politicians not looking more than 5 years out when it comes to infrastructure projects and the like, but this thread shows that the majority of the electorate are just as bad.

People have to take the long view. A vote for Labour will do nothing to change the current direction because Labour have said they believe this direction, that is making life worse for the majority, is the right one. It is a vote to continue making people’s lives worse, and in 5 to 10 years a Braverman led Tory government (or a Braverman equivalent) will come into power off the back of frustration at Labour’s lack of effectivness.

So what’s your answer? Vote Tory to accelerate the trip to rock bottom, rather than give anyone else a chance?

Tough ask, that.

Just vote for the party that most aligns to your beliefs. Don’t be bullied into voting for for a labour party that will allow the country to drift further right for another generation.

A vote for Labour will do nothing to change the current direction because Labour have said they believe this direction, that is making life worse for the majority, is the right one

I’m genuinely curious – when or where have Labour ever said this?

I’ve seen words to this effect written on here multiple times yet I don’t see this, anywhere. I’m not so precious that I want people to start Harvard referencing their quotes but it’s a fairly sweeping statement.

Is it an assumption because your interpretation is that something you’ve seen or read is not sufficiently or significantly different to how you interpret the Conservatives? I am genuinely interested in this.

So what’s your answer? 

Look at the manifestos and vote for the party that most closely aligns with your beliefs.  Especially if you live in a marginal constituency because voters in these constituencies are the only ones who are listened to.

I’m genuinely curious – when or where have Labour ever said this?

They have ruled out moving towards the EU in any meaningful way.

They continue to parrot the household budget analogy, basically saying they aren’t going to invest at anything like the level needed.

They have said they have no plans to reverse the Tory’s anti-demonstration/strike and anti-Union/strike policies.  And it wouldn’t surprise me if Yvette Cooper pushed them even further.

And last, but not least, they have ruled out any form of vote reform that would get us away from the current Reform party chasing polices both Tories and Labour are forced to take part in.

I’m sure there are others, that’s off the top of my head.

I want to read this for myself, please can you provide links?

Not doubting you but I live in an area that will almost certainly vote conservative for no better reason than “because we always do” (not me by the way).  So I would love to get my head round it.

Is it an assumption because your interpretation is that something you’ve seen or read is not sufficiently or significantly different to how you interpret the Conservatives? I am genuinely interested in this.

For me it’s the words that come out of Starmer’s mouth.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-labour-government-spending-b2376121.html

He has made clear that there will be no significant difference between Labour’s and the Tories’s spending targets.

In fact he is currently emphasizing that he will, in his opinion, be a better conservative than the Conservatives.

Which actually might be true.

I want to read this for myself, please can you provide links?

Prepare to see mis-quotes and/or throwaway statements made due to questions raised trying to get labour MPs to make a statement that could be used in the red tops.

People think that labour not promising to change everything 180 degrees is just weak and tory-lite, rather than the realistic concept that politics is a long term game that’s played out over many years to get legislation through and officiate real change, and just now, the labour party are in opposition, and trying to win next years election without having any own goals coming back to bite them when they actually release their intent in the run up.

Argee

they could say they would do constitutional change – even if thats a “royal commission” to look into it ie kkick it down the road.  Labour conference voted for constitutional reform but Starmer said noThey could say they would move back towards the EU instead of ruling it out and lying ” no case for return”

They could expalin a little abourt economics and set at least aims and targets

One tiny example – the Scottish government who have basically a fixed budget have the Scottish child payment or whatever its called that mitigates / removes the two child benefit limit.  Starmer has that that limit will remain. Quite a few other examples of the Scottish government doing tings that Starmer say are impossible for England

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/24/keir-starmer-defies-call-for-changes-to-first-past-the-post-voting-system

Labour is promoting the household analogy that suggests it will be constrained when in office by a lack of money – and that is not true

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/08/labour-urged-to-say-whether-it-would-scrap-new-anti-protest-laws

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-workers-rights-u-turn-starmer-b2395249.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/04/u-turns-labour-keir-starmer-tuition-fees-income-tax

It’s kind of difficult to give an exhaustive list but that should get you started.

People think that labour not promising to change everything 180 degrees is just weak and tory-lite, rather than the realistic concept that politics is a long term game that’s played out over many years to get legislation through and officiate real change, and just now, the labour party are in opposition, and trying to win next years election without having any own goals coming back to bite them when they actually release their intent in the run up.

This is precisely what I instinctively feel. Coupled with the fact that a general election hasn’t actually been called; it makes me wonder how any other political part has been “challenged” to provide details prior to a general election being called. It occurs to me that when I say details, people are asking for precise plans of how they’re going to find things. Never in my memory has an opposition been held to such high standards before an election has actually been called. It’s weird.

I am not asking for precise plans.  What I am saying is Starmer has made it clear that he will spend no more money, will not do constitutional reform and has rules out things like removing the two child benefit cap as it is ” not affordable” despite Scotland being able to do it

Never in my memory has an opposition been held to such high standards before an election has actually been called. It’s weird.

I know.  Why can’t we just put everything Starmer says and does under the same level of scrutiny we put Corbyn under.  That seems fair, right?

throwaway statements made due to questions raised trying to get labour MPs to make a statement that could be used in the red tops.

I don’t recall ever hearing a BBC current affairs programme being described as a tool for “the red tops” before.

Although I do agree that no gravitas should be attached to Starmer’s “statements”.

If not thrown away the best that they deserve is to be slung into the recycling bin. Along with all his other “statements”.

I know.  Why can’t we just put everything Starmer says and does under the same level of scrutiny we put Corbyn under.  That seems fair, right?

Yes, no, maybe…?

Corbyn was subject of fairly constant personal attack & a fair amount of vitriol, I think this is different; Starmer doesn’t seem to get quite the same type or volume of personal attacks, but rather his policies, lack of policies, policy changes get attacked.

I get the feeling that people in the UK are so disenchanted with politics as a whole as to feel disenfranchised.

I don’t recall Cameron being subject to quite the same scrutiny by the media or public. Here’s man who gave us a referendum that very few people other than a small section of then Tory party & a few fringe politicians were asking for. Here’s a man who seemingly single handedly has led the public to believe that a referendum was the policy upon which he was elected. A man who introduced such severe spending cuts to public services whilst at the same time borrowing record amounts for **** know what…

It seems to me that had we scrutinised Cameron & his policies to the same level as Corbyn & Starmer then we wouldn’t be living in a literal toilet of a country, where distrust of our leaders is clouding everything. 

Here’s man who gave us a referendum that very few people other than a small section of then Tory party & a few fringe politicians were asking for.

All three main political parties were asking for a referendum on EU membership.

The House of Commons voted by 544 to 53 in favour of holding a referendum in 2015, with only the Scottish National Party voting against.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33067157

disingenuous Ernie – you must know that.  The whole thing was driven by Farage, some racists in tory ranks and a few deluded lexiteers and the tories fear of what farage would do to them electorally.

MIldred – Cameron was a tory.  Of course his policies would make the UK a worse place.  The tory parties only purpose is tokeep power and wealth in the hands of the powerfuland wealthy

Starmer is leader of the ;labour party which is supposed to improve the lot of the people of the country.  He has ruled out doing anything significant to do so,. No to rejoin, no to constitutional change, no to any increase in spending and he is lying about all 3

disingenuous Ernie – you must know that.

I am just drawing attention to the fact that it was not just a small section of then Tory party & a few fringe politicians that backed calling a referendum.

If you want to be totally disingenuous and pretend that the Labour Party and the LibDems were bullied into supporting a referendum by Nigel Farage and “deluded lexiteers” then that’s up to you.

Although it would make more sense to accept actual facts even if they don’t fit in nicely with your preferred narrative.

The House of Commons voted by 544 to 53 in favour of holding a referendum in 2015

And we are back to your blind spot Ernie.  

From your link

Labour campaigned before the general election against the idea of a referendum, saying it would be destabilising. But after what amounted, to them, to be a rather destabilising appointment with the electorate, they have changed their mind in defeat.

Shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn said the Labour leadership would campaign strongly in favour of the UK remaining a part of the EU,

Former SNP leader Alex Salmond, who tabled the SNP amendment opposing the bill, said “no-one believed” David Cameron wanted to take the UK out of the EU and suggested the bill was primarily designed to appease Tory backbenchers.”This bill is based on a nonsense and a contradiction. Major constitutional referendums should be held on a proposition, honestly held.”The prime minister proposes to hold this referendum as a political tactic… and that is why there is so much suspicion already, not just among opponents of Europe but among those who are proponents of Europe.”

How that brexcit working for you Ernie? Unleashing of racism like I haven’t seen since the 70s, huge economic damage,  Huge damage to the NHS and we still have not finished leaving with the most damaging part to come

I know you are completely blinded by your lexiteer views but yo ain’t fooling the rest of us.  One day I hope yo will wake up tothe reality.

The House of Commons voted by 544 to 53 in favour of holding a referendum in 2015

ON the first reading of the bill.

Ernie, my understanding was that the EU referendum was a manifesto pledge made by the Conservatives, partly to answer questions within the right of his own party, but also in a slightly panicked response to the loss of a very specific section of their voters to a vocal & well funded right wing movement led by Farage & pals. My memory is that Labour certainly did not support a referendum until such time that it was an inevitability, which I think is born out in the article you linked, which was also at roughly the same time Corbyn became leader (who I recall is also anti-EU).
The referendum was diversionary to the real scandal of that early government – public spending cuts. It distracted everyone and provided the answer to a question that nobody but a small minority was asking.
The result has been for the wealthy to be riding a gravy train and the poor to be utterly ****. It all started with Cameron’s government. The genius of it staggers me; the public were les to believe it’s what they wanted & the instigator in all his hubris has been allowed to flounce out the room without accepting any responsibility whatsoever.

It was the second reading on 9 June 2015.

How that brexcit working for you Ernie?

Whether brexit has worked out great or absolutely terrible for me doesn’t somehow change how the House of Commons voted on the 9th of June 2015.

The House of Commons voted by 544 to 53 in favour of holding a referendum in 2015

Edit: With only the SNP voting against holding a referendum on EU membership it must make it the only major issue which all three main parties have totally agreed on in decades.

In Scotland vote labour get tory is true

The tories will never hold any sort of power in Scotland never ever ever never ever.

If you want to be totally disingenuous and pretend that the Labour Party and the LibDems were bullied into supporting a referendum

Very much so, perhaps the largest travesty of the Brexit referendum is it was ‘advisory’ nature and so not subject to the checks and balances of a fair and legally binding referendum.
It was nothing more than a ‘trumped up’ opinion poll, if you’ll excuse my choice of language.
Never the less, to go against said opinion poll, which I shoudn’t have to remind anyone was within margin of error, statistically speaking, would be seen as a ‘crime against democracy’ or whatever by those that wanted brexit for thier own benefit, to the detriment of the usefull idiots who voted for it.
But here we are.

Corbyn is just as guilty as Cameron for this.. Cameron (the du,mbass that he is) was hedging his bets against losing votes to UKIP, and Corbyn has always been anti-EU, he wants socialism, but only if he makes the rules, which isn’t socialism, it’s a dicatorship. Corbyn 3 line whipped his MP’s to approve article 50, ‘member that?

The tories will never hold any sort of power in Scotland never ever ever never ever.

they hold significant power in councils due to deals with labour and I fully expect a labour / tory coalition in Holyrood after the next holyrood election

the SNP are going to lose seats.  That will mean they will not be able to get close to a majority even with Green support.  Labour will gain seats.  Lib dems will remain very much a fringe party leaving the only two parties that will work together and that can get a majority will be labour and tory combined.

This in turn hopefully will mean the end of labour in Scotland.  to refuse to work with other social democratic parties but will work with a hard right tory party should be the end.  vote labour get tory is a very real thing in Scotland

they hold significant power in councils due to deals with labour

Dafuq?

Thats’s called corruption in any other language.

So If I live in the UK and vote lib dem, it’s a vote for tory, (because it’s not labour according to the corbyn massive)
but if I’m voting from scotland, a vote for labour is also a vote for tory…

And people wonder why I vote Lib dem, lol!
That’s just cemented my mind.. I’m voting Lib dem regardless.

Thank you.

weird isn’t it.  Edinburgh council is run by a coalition of labour / tory and lib dem.  labour try to claim they are a minority administration but thats balderdash.  Labour hold less that 1/4 of the seats and are the second largest party.  In order to win a vote they had to give the tories significant power in terms of appointments to various positions. Two labour councillors had the whip withdrawn for refusing to work with the tories

Labour and tory have been working together in Scotland for the last few years.  Scottish labour have a tribal hatred of the SNP since the SNP took power and stole labours “rightful” position as the biggest party in Scotland and  constitutional matters are not relevant in councils at all.  There is no reason bar the tribal hatred from labour  for labour and SNP not to work together on councils but labour would rather work with the tories

Plenty of other councils are run with deals between Labour and tories.  Most of them its closer to a real minority administration however.

Currently in Holyrood SNP are one seat short of a majority and are in coalition with the greens.  I expect the SNP to lose 10 – 20 seats with labour taking most of those..    this would mean an SNP / green administration is no longer possible.  LIb dems and labour will not gain enough seats to make a labour / lib dem coalition possible – Labour will never work with either greens or SNP despite there being very little between them politically apart from constitutional matters and indeed a significant % of labour membership and voters are in favour of independence.so the result will be a labour / tory coalition is my bet.

Corbyn was subject of fairly constant personal attack & a fair amount of vitriol, I think this is different; Starmer doesn’t seem to get quite the same type or volume of personal attacks, but rather his policies, lack of policies, policy changes get attacked.

They will attack the Labour Party with whatever they think is best. Corbyn was a sitting duck as he had baggage and was also useless at the media politics thing (he was too honest and didn’t play the game well)
His policies were actually popular (as expected) and they also dealt with the magic money tree BS as McDonnell was very good.

For those in this thread who still do not know whom to vote for, this might come in handy: https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz

Well the answer for me is anyone except Tory or Reclaim, though highest percentage is Social Democracy, which is pretty much how I’ve always thought of my political views.